Black IPA

I'm trying to get some input as how to hop my black ipa. Should I just increase the amount of hops in my dark beer recipe, or should I use the malt profile of my dark beer recipe and add an ipa hop profile? What I think is to use my porter recipe, but change the hop profile and use my ipa hop profile. The bittering hop is the same, but the aroma and flavor hops would change.
Thanks for your input

I'm not sure I am completely understanding your question, but a Black IPA, or Cascadian Dark, or whatever it is being called these days should have very little to no roasted flavor, just enough dark grain should be used for color. Personally, I would use very dark crystal malts (english 150, or Carastan with some debittered black malt for color), and hop at a slightly higher rate. So an increase of hops with an IPA hop profile, if that makes sense, and avoid specialty grains such as roasted barley chocolate, and black patent.

kind of - - there was just an article in BYO about the Cascadian Dark. I still prefer to call it a black IPA. I'm wondering if the Cascadian name will stick?

After tasing dark/black Ipa's in the pacific NW, I would say your assesment of the dark Ipa is not completely accurate for this area of the country.
Terminal Gravity Brewing out of Enterprise, OR tastes like a combination of a stout and their IPA. very complex flavor characteristic, almost indescribable. also Laughing Dog out of Pend Oreille, ID makes a similar one, with roasted flavors. Maybe this is another new category.

beesy said:

kind of - - there was just an article in BYO about the Cascadian Dark. I still prefer to call it a black IPA. I'm wondering if the Cascadian name will stick?

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It'd be pretty funny if that name stuck, since the style originated (and became popular in) Vermont, as most of the brewers out west who started making it 10+ years after the fact will freely admit (Greg Noonan was making them in the early 1990s at the Vermont Pub and Brewhouse, and by the mid to late 1990s there were several breweries in Vermont and other parts of New England brewing dark IPAs--it wasn't until c. 2005ish that they started being widely brewed in "Cascadia" as brewers from Vermont or who had worked with Vermont brewers moved out west).

It's the first truly northeastern US beer style, calling it "Cascadian" would be rich with irony.

IMO it should be called black IPA. It's descriptive and lets you know what it is. I don't care that pale and black are contrasting, most people don't even think of the word 'pale' when they think IPA anymore. Cascadian dark ale sounds stupid... plus as Sumner said, why give credit to the NW when they didn't even come up with the style? If we're going to name it regionally, shouldn't it be a New England Dark Ale?

On topic, I agree with Schnitz... use debittered dark malts (debittered black patent/carafa III special) in just enough to get it dark enough and hop normally or slightly more. You'll get a small amount of roastiness but it's really just a hint. Works great.

SumnerH said:

It's the first truly northeastern US beer style, calling it "Cascadian" would be rich with irony.

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Why not just break 14B into "American Light IPA" and "American Dark IPA"?

Schnitzengiggle said:

...should have very little to no roasted flavor, just enough dark grain should be used for color.

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I fully and wholeheartedly disagree with that. That's what makes a CDA unique. It is more than just color. It's a delicate balance of roast and hops. That's the trick. The balance. Don't be afraid to use roasted malts, just don't over do it.

Kilted Brewer said:

I fully and wholeheartedly disagree with that. That's what makes a CDA unique. It is more than just color. It's a delicate balance of roast and hops. That's the trick. The balance. Don't be afraid to use roasted malts, just don't over do it.

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I think it should have a mild roasty flavor but should be very dry and the roastiness should be present but almost fleeting. IMO debittered dark malts give you the right amount... some people say that you won't get any flavor from them but that's not been my experience. Maybe if you only add them in for the last 15min of the mash you can get the color without flavor, but I think it'd be weird to have it be black and not see that reflected at all in the flavor.

from BYO, and yes use of debittered Carafa instead of roasted barley and black patent

What differentiates Cascadian dark ale from a hoppy porter or stout? There are really three main differences. The first would be the basic hop profile. These beers are brewed using traditional IPA bittering, flavor and aroma hops with citrus, spice and floral characteristics. Typical hop selections would be Columbus, Centennial, Chinook, Amarillo, Simcoe and Cascade or hybrids of these like Warrior or Magnum. The second would be the vastly reduced roast malt flavor contributions. The use of debittered Carafa® malts instead of black patent or roast barley. This provides color without the harsher, burnt flavor profiles of robust porters or stouts. And finally, the third is the much drier finish. This is achieved through the use of very little light caramel malts and highly attenuative yeasts.

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bovineblitz said:

I think it should have a mild roasty flavor but should be very dry and the roastiness should be present but almost fleeting. IMO debittered dark malts give you the right amount... some people say that you won't get any flavor from them but that's not been my experience. Maybe if you only add them in for the last 15min of the mash you can get the color without flavor, but I think it'd be weird to have it be black and not see that reflected at all in the flavor.

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Was going to post the exact same thing.

In the two commercial examples I've had, one had very little roast character and the second was more pronounced. However, both were subtle and not overbearing in terms of roast.

As for the name, I don't like Black IPA, because I do think it's more than just a dark colored IPA, and I don't like Cascadian Dark Ale, because that's not even a real place!!! I mean, where IS that exactly?!?! I'm okay with American Dark Ale or even Northwestern Dark Ale, as it seems that the style rose to prominence in the Pacific Northwest. I think it probably does need to be considered for the next BJCP update.

The term "Cascadia" is typically used by irredentist hippies from Eugene who want to secede and form some sort of vegan dictatorship. In my mind, the term conjures up odors of patchouli, soy products, and body odor. Call it black IPA, please.

Besides, IMO the best example of the style is Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous, which is decidedly not from Cascadia nor the Pacific NW.

I've had great results using uber-citrusy hops (sorachi, simcoe, centennial) with Carafa III mashed for the entire 60 minutes. There should be slightly more than a hint of roastiness. The hop schedule should be similar to that of an imperial IPA, with perhaps more bittering and dry hops to counter the added maltiness.

from what i gathered in BYO and Zymurgy, there should be roast flavor, but should be more subtle as the other guys were saying. in both magazines it said that black ipa's shouldnt just be a stout recipe with alot of hops. i just brewed my first batch, and keeping the dark malts to small amounts and using a bunch of carafa, the malt backbone is there, but its all hops up front. a really interesting stlye to play with, and its a shame to not have any commercial examples around for me to try ( im from nh and have looked up and down my area and cant find any), but my impression of the style was to be a IIPA with a dash of porter/stout flavor

humann_brewing said:

from BYO, and yes use of debittered Carafa instead of roasted barley and black patent

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Well, BYO is full of ****

They're trying to nail a style down that is still evolving

Mine worked great with equal amounts of american chocolate malt and carafa special III. Roasty comes through just enough. I also gave it some cooked honey and belgian dark candy sugar a few days into fermentation. It added some very cool flavors.

Budzu said:

Mine worked great with equal amounts of american chocolate malt and carafa special III. Roasty comes through just enough. I also gave it some cooked honey and belgian dark candy sugar a few days into fermentation. It added some very cool flavors.

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I used dark candy sugar in mine as well and like the effect

What's the target SRM for this style. Is it dark as in 20 SRM or dark as in 30? That makes a pretty big difference in terms of how much roasted character you'll add to achieve the correct color.

mithion said:

What's the target SRM for this style. Is it dark as in 20 SRM or dark as in 30? . . .

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According to the BYO article 30+. The one I brewed a few weeks ago came in at an estimated 32SRM.

India Black Ale, IBA.

Let's get it going.

@no borders - Southern Tier is an upstate NY brewery that makes a decent black IPA. They call it an imperial black ale. Perhaps they distribute in your area?

http://www.southerntierbrewing.com/

@mithion - my current iteration of BIPA is 35 SRM, with the grain bill consisting of 17 lb domestic 2row and 1 lb carafa III for a 5.5 gallon batch.

I brewed a black IPA a little over a month ago. FWIW, I used a typical IPA malt bill (2row, vienna, wheat) and used carafa II for color. The hops were Amarillo/Simcoe in a 60/40 ratio. It was fantastic and is already gone.

Imo, if you're brewing an IPA that's simply dark in color, you still want the hops to be the main focus of the beer even if the SRM is 30+. Using a stout grain bill muddy up the flavor profile a bit.

SickTransitMundus said:

@no borders - Southern Tier is an upstate NY brewery that makes a decent black IPA. They call it an imperial black ale. Perhaps they distribute in your area?

http://www.southerntierbrewing.com/

@mithion - my current iteration of BIPA is 35 SRM, with the grain bill consisting of 17 lb domestic 2row and 1 lb carafa III for a 5.5 gallon batch.

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I LOOOVE that beer. Iniquity blew my mind the first time I had it.

mithion said:

What's the target SRM for this style. Is it dark as in 20 SRM or dark as in 30? That makes a pretty big difference in terms of how much roasted character you'll add to achieve the correct color.

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I went with 35, though some of it came from dark candy sugar.

Thanks for all the input. From the origination turf war to whether it has a roasted character or not.
I brewed a 10 gallon batch tonight, and going into the fermenter it tasted pretty good. The hops very prominant and just enough of the roasted flavor.
I used an IPA hop bill with Chinook, Columbus, and large amounts of late addition Cascade.
Malt bill Pale 2 row with some munich, a little bit of roasted barley, a little chocolate, some molasses, and medium crystal.
color around 26. Put it on a california ale yeast cake from my pale ale I just put into secondary, and is already bubbling away. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

powderbock said:

I brewed a 10 gallon batch tonight . . .

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Post back with results as your beer progresses. After several batches of this style, I'm still tinkering with the recipe and would be interested to hear details of yours. What you like or don't like? Anything you might do different the next time? Happy tasting!

klyph said:

India Black Ale, IBA.

Let's get it going.

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IMO, I don't even know if there should be an 'I' in with the 'P & A", let alone the 'P'.

It's not a historic style, so the "India" can go.

It's not "Pale" either so that can be tossed out.

Calling it a Black IPA is an oxymoron (Black India Pale Ale?)

I like Cascadian Dark Ale, or Cascadian Black Ale. I don't think the Cascadian will stick whatsoever, the BA has already named it as a category at this years GABF, and if the BJCP adopts this "new" style, I'd assume they will call it what it will be known as best.

I know all the folks up in northern Calfornia, Oregon, Washington, and Canada want to take credit for this "style", which they may very well be entitled to, however, I just don't see Cascadia sticking with the title. One reason is I've never seen a region (other than a mountain range, which is the Cascade Range) on a map listed as Cascadia.

Regardless of what folks locally call the area, or what folks would like the area to be called, I think the vast majority of the eastern United States do not know the upper northwest as Cascadia. I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone will point out some shortcoming in my argument.

Either way it is just my opinion.

The naming is such a simple solution... 'Ale Negra Americana'! Viva Spanish! That's 'American Black Ale'. This way it completely ignores any region and adds in some unconnected aspect such as giving it a Spanish name thoroughly leaving all involved scratching their collective heads!

As for the bier itself I think the discussion over the amount of roast, sweetness, hops, etc. is an interesting one. I see this as more of a difference between the style guidelines of the BA/pros vs those of the BJCP/hobbyist. I think the pro brewers are given 'slightly' more leeway in their style guidelines than us but obviously take FAR GREATER leeway as they're crafting products for the market and not for competitions. Thus you're going to have some breweries making fine versions of this 'Vermont Created Cascadian Perfected Dark Black American Not So Pale Ale' (aka VCCPDBANSPA) with some versions being simply black in color to others being quite roasty. Btw I just watched episode 10 of Brewingtv which travels to Seattle (I think) and does a nice show on this style, good stuff!

Too me it's like the discussion and even debate that arises when someone asks about a pale ale or barleywine recipe that mixes english yeast with american hops, people immediately start saying you can't do that. Fact is you can it will just be bending the style guidelines or simply become a specialty bier. Furthermore the discussion of styles is simply wasteful unless it's for competitions or as is the case her an attempt to better understand said bier.

Schlante,
Phillip

So I just put my Black IPA into secondary after 13 days in primary. calculated IBU's were around 70. When I tasted before fermentation, there was a definate hop profile like an IPA should have, however, when I tasted it going into secondary, that fantastic hop profile has diminished and is being overpowered by the malt profile. I'm thinking the hops will be more prominent once it gets dry hopped/ages and gets carbed, but my question is on black IPA's using some roasted malts should you push the IBU's even higher to overcome the malt bill?