Hair of the Dog - Stuck Fermentation

Brewed a Hair of the Dog - Adam clone
a big beer supposed to start at 1.094 and finish at 1.020

- started 1.105 - used a 2 L starter
had an intense fermentation of about 4 days
finished 1.055

added oak and cherries - thought the fruit might help kick up fermentation
shook the carboys

after a couple of weeks - I transferred to new carboys
- added a 2 L starter of champagne yeast
had a flimsey fermentation down to 1.050

all using my refractometer

Not sure if I should try to start again - maybe a bigger starter ? or just keg it and drink it !
Cheers

I've heard that the best way to kick start a stuck fermentation is to make a new starter and pitch at high krausen. Looks like you underpitched to begin with....

What was your grain bill if you had a lot of unfermentables there maybe an issue with the recipe not the fermentation

Try taking a reading using your hydrometer and your refractometer and see if they agree. From what I've read the refractometer have trouble giving an accurate reading with high alcohol.

just drink your brew and next time adjust your starter accordingly

HOTD Adam

Here is the recipe I used
Definitely the most challenging I have made .. I converted to 5 gal because I use keggles and 30 lbs is about all the grain I can fit
I used the 2 nd runnings to make a 2nd beer that still came out at 1.045 og

Brew Type: All Grain Date: 1/23/2007
Style: Smoked Beer, Other Brewer: Alan Sprints
Batch Size: 10.00 gal Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 14.27 gal Boil Time: 180 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 %
Brewing Steps
Check Time Step
1-2 Days Before Brewing Make Yeast Starter: Scottish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1728) [Starter 600 ml]
1/23/2007 Clean and prepare equipment.
-- Measure ingredients, crush grains.
-- Prepare 21.71 gal water for brewing
-- Prepare Ingredients for Mash
Amount Item Type
50 lbs Gambrinus Pale Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain
5 lbs Gambrinus Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain
3 lbs 8.0 oz British Crystal Malt - 45L (45.0 SRM) Grain
2 lbs Peat Smoked Malt (2.8 SRM) Grain
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain
-- WARNING: Preheat Mash Tun - No equipment adjustments made!
2 min Mash Ingredients
Step: Add 93.00 qt of water at 165.1 F
40 min - Hold mash at 155.0 F for 40 min
-- Sparge with 0.00 gal of 168.0 F water.
-- Add water to achieve boil volume of 14.27 gal
-- Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.094 SG with all grains/extracts added
Boil for 180 min Start to Boil.
90 min into boil Add 4.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.00%] (90 min)
140 min into boil Add 3.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.00%] (40 min)
170 min into boil Add 4.00 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (10u min)
-- Cool wort to fermentation temperature
-- Add water (as needed) to achieve volume of 1u0.00 gal
-- Siphon wort to primary fermenter and aerate wort.
-- Add Ingredients to Fermenter
Amount Item Type
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale
1 Pkgs Scottish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1728) [Starter 600 ml] Yeast-Ale
1/23/2007 Measure Original Gravity: ________ (Estimate: 1.134 SG)
1/23/2007 Measure Batch Volume: ________ (Estimate: 10.00 gal)
4 days Ferment in primary for 4 days at 68.0 F
1/27/2007 Transfer to Secondary Fermenter
7 days Ferment in secondary for 7 days at 68.0 F
2/3/2007 Measure Final Gravity: ________ (Estimate: 1.038 SG)
-- Bottle beer at 60.0 F with 7.6 oz of corn sugar.
4.0 Weeks Age for 4.0 Weeks at 52.0 F
3/3/2007 Sample and enjoy!
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 0.0

Notes
Collect 12 gallons of wort, boil for 3 hours, pitch and ferment. Bottle of keg condition.

I used the White labs equivalent and made a 2 L starter of the 2 together
Seems like I should make a bigger starter?
I did get a massive fermentation though , blew the tops off

Holy cow, 50 lbs of pale malt for a 10 gal batch, so you scaled down to 5 gal and used 25 lbs? Plus your other grains. That's monsterous.

I have no idea what size starter you would need, at least a 1 gal if you ask me. I probably would've stepped up a few 1ish L starters until I got to 1 gal.

I definitely agree with taking a hydrometer reading instead of refractometer. Don't use your refractometer to take readings once fermentation has begun, it gets screwy.

You still have a fairly big beer there, so don't sweat it too much. Maybe let it sit for another few weeks to see if it comes down anymore, and then keg/bottle it!

periwinkle1239 said:

Holy cow, 50 lbs of pale malt for a 10 gal batch, so you scaled down to 5 gal and used 25 lbs? Plus you're other grains. That's monsterous.

I have no idea what size starter you would need, at least a 1 gal if you ask me. I probably would've stepped up a few 1ish L starters until I got to 1 gal.

I definitely agree with taking a hydrometer reading instead of refractometer. Don't use your refractometer to take readings once fermentation has begun, it gets screwy.

You still have a fairly big beer there, so don't sweat it too much. Maybe let it sit for another few weeks to see if it comes down anymore, and then keg/bottle it!

Click to expand...

Yeah crazy amount of grain
Cant wait to try it
I ll try try the hydro and see what I get

michael.berta said:

I've heard that the best way to kick start a stuck fermentation is to make a new starter and pitch at high krausen. Looks like you underpitched to begin with....

Click to expand...

Yup I did that - made another 2 L starter w champagne yeast (guys at the shop said this would be better for high gravity)
It started fermenting but not very strongly went from 1.055 to 1.050
Maybe I should do it again but step it up?

BobC said:

Try taking a reading using your hydrometer and your refractometer and see if they agree. From what I've read the refractometer have trouble giving an accurate reading with high alcohol.

Click to expand...

I've heard that too - I hate trying to take a sample out of the carboy - for the refrac. Only need a few drops for the hydrometer need a full vial
How do other people do it?

otisbrad said:

I've heard that too - I hate trying to take a sample out of the carboy - for the refrac. Only need a few drops for the hydrometer need a full vial
How do other people do it?

Click to expand...

I use a turkey baster that I got from bed bath and beyond. Sanitized of course.

I think the take away from this is to use the proper pitching rate in the future. Oxygen also will be a huge factor...

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Yeah Baby !!! Used my hydrometer and got 1.020 - with OG of 1.105 that measures out to 11.14% "Its ALIVE !!!"

Also tastes really good - oak has mellowed a bit and cherries are very subtle

Thanks for all the advice - its great to have the help of the crowd. Now I know why all my beers seemed to have the wrong FG - using the refractometer doesn't give a good reading after fermentation. I never thought too much of it before cause all my beers were tasting great but the numbers weren't right. I learn a little bit more with each brew!
Cheers

Finally got a stainless baster at kitchen store
And used my hydrometer
1.020 perfect
Now I know - refractometer doesnt work after fermentation
Thanks for all the help

otisbrad said:

Yeah Baby !!! Used my hydrometer and got 1.020 - with OG of 1.105 that measures out to 11.14% "Its ALIVE !!!"

Also tastes really good - oak has mellowed a bit and cherries are very subtle

Thanks for all the advice - its great to have the help of the crowd. Now I know why all my beers seemed to have the wrong FG - using the refractometer doesn't give a good reading after fermentation. I never thought too much of it before cause all my beers were tasting great but the numbers weren't right. I learn a little bit more with each brew!
Cheers

Click to expand...

This makes me wonder if I'm having the same issue with my refractometer. I brewed a brown almost a couple weeks ago, pitched a 1200ml starter of 1056, oxygenated the wort, and control fermented at around 66-67 degrees for 9 days - gravity was at 1.035. Kicked it up a few days ago to 68-70 for a diacetyl rest and checked it last night and still at 1.035. Starting gravity was around 1.057. There is still a lot of Krausen on the beer too. I'll have to dig out the hydrometer and take a reading tonight. Any thougths on possible issues and fixes?

I just found some information out on the world wide web confirming that refractometers readings post fermentation need further calculations.

"Refractometers are a great way to sample gravity, however once alcohol is created during fermentation they will require a few calculations to correct the reading."

morebeer.com/public/beer/refractbeer.xls

Keano41 said:

I just found some information out on the world wide web confirming that refractometers readings post fermentation need further calculations.

"Refractometers are a great way to sample gravity, however once alcohol is created during fermentation they will require a few calculations to correct the reading."

morebeer.com/public/beer/refractbeer.xls

Click to expand...

You got it! How did the hydrometer readings come out?

otisbrad said:

You got it! How did the hydrometer readings come out?

Click to expand...

Just kegged tonight and my hydrometer readings were 1.022. Not too far off from where I was shooting for. OG 1.069...a little big for a Brown but it's DAMN tasty.

I'm having the exact same problem myself right now. Brewed a blonde ale with OG of 1.044, made a starter and was bubbling away but my gravity reading today with my refrac was 1.018 when I was expecting less than 1.010. Definitely gonna take another reading with my hygrometer now

i might have the same issue with my refractometer. OG of 1.050, but seemed to stall at 1.027. I repitched another starter as it tastes very sweet, but maybe i was closer to being done than i thought.

This is not an individual refractometer issue. It's a property of ALL refractometers- they estimate the sugar dissolved in water only based on the amount light refracts through a solution. Water and acohol have different refractive indexes, so once you start mixing the two (fermentation) refractometers are simply not accurate as they are designed to work with 100% water solutions. Use your refractometer for pre-pitching measurements, sparge runnings gravity, pre-boil gravity, OG etc. After pitching, only use your hydrometer. There are calculators to correct for alcohol so you can use them post-fermentation, but none of them are accurate. Stick to the hydrometer once alcohol has entered the picture.