A Mad Experiment

Everybody says it won't work........... I'm undecided, or I wouldn't be doing it.

I will shortly launch an experiment in which I will cook two steaks using sous vide, at about 132F for 24 hours. Both steaks will be flame seared with a very hot propane torch before being dropped into vacuum seal bags...... not afterward. The purpose of flaming them with 2500 degree flame briefly, is to kill any microbes on the surface. After searing, they will be sealed and cooked in the sous vide.
After cooking 24 hours, one will go in the freezer, and the other in a warm dark cupboard for an extended period of time........ 90 days is the target. I will examine the one in the cupboard daily at first, and perhaps less frequently later on, for any signs of spoilage. Change in appearance, or swelling of the package
What I am trying to do is determine how effectively the 132F for 24 hours will kill bacteria. It will kill botulism but it will NOT kill botulism spores which are formed when botulism is subjected to an environment where it cannot normally exist. It's actually a sort of "hibernation" mode. Flame searing for an extremely brief period of time should destroy anything on the surface. The meat will be held in stainless steel tongs, which will be preheated. What I cannot control is what's in the air and the bag. We are not talking about "sterile procedure" here.
I submit that spoilage of any type will be evident in some observable way. It will likely result in swelling as a result of bacterial respiration, odor, or some change in appearance.
At the end of 90 days, if both steaks survive that period of observation, I will bring both back to 132, open them each on it's own plate, and cut them up as if to eat them... I'll eat the one from the freezer. The other will be subjected to comparative observation that does not involve actually eating it.
I'm not confident enough of my observations to actually eat the room temp stored meat, though I do suspect that if there are no signs of spoilage, it is probably wholesome.

The idea here is that if meat can be preserved in this way, which depends entirely on the ability to determine if it is wholesome, it offers a way to enjoy great medium rare steak on an extended sea voyage when others are enjoying Bush's Canned Beans.

I recall reading an article once about a hamburger unearthed in a dump, where it had been entombed for many years..... perfectly preserved. Seems a bit preposterous under the circumstances, but what I propose is a far more controlled environment where observation is possible.

I have no real expectations of success.....just hopes. But I do know that decomposition is a microbial process, and if you can arrest that process things do not decompose. I know that you can pressure can meat and it will last virtually forever, but it is not that lovely medium rare steak I love so much, but rather something that has lost all character and depends on spices, gravy, etc to be palatable. I have to admit that I know people who actually eat things like round steak, rump roast, and ground beef, and consider it "edible" and even seem to enjoy it. I don't and I don't. If there's no "moo" left, it's not fit to eat in my book. That goes for beef and lamb. I don't eat pork except ham and bacon if I can help it, though ribs slathered in barbecue sauce can be edible, and I've even been known to eat chicken (don't tell anybody please). When I eat meat, I want it to look and taste like meat. Stringy tenderized garbage like "pulled pork", or "Swiss steak" belong to the class called "white trash". I obviously appear really really opinionated. If you are "white trash", please know that some of my best friends are "white trash".
As a "disclaimer", I'm single with no children....... I can afford to eat what I like because I'm not feeding 4 or 7 people on one income.

H.W.

Owly055 said:

Everybody says it won't work........... I'm undecided, or I wouldn't be doing it.

I will shortly launch an experiment in which I will cook two steaks using sous vide, at about 132F for 24 hours. Both steaks will be flame seared with a very hot propane torch before being dropped into vacuum seal bags...... not afterward. The purpose of flaming them with 2500 degree flame briefly, is to kill any microbes on the surface. After searing, they will be sealed and cooked in the sous vide.
After cooking 24 hours, one will go in the freezer, and the other in a warm dark cupboard for an extended period of time........ 90 days is the target. I will examine the one in the cupboard daily at first, and perhaps less frequently later on, for any signs of spoilage. Change in appearance, or swelling of the package
What I am trying to do is determine how effectively the 132F for 24 hours will kill bacteria. It will kill botulism but it will NOT kill botulism spores which are formed when botulism is subjected to an environment where it cannot normally exist. It's actually a sort of "hibernation" mode. Flame searing for an extremely brief period of time should destroy anything on the surface. The meat will be held in stainless steel tongs, which will be preheated. What I cannot control is what's in the air and the bag. We are not talking about "sterile procedure" here.
I submit that spoilage of any type will be evident in some observable way. It will likely result in swelling as a result of bacterial respiration, odor, or some change in appearance.

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The room temp stored meat is likely to spoil without using a cure. If you brine the steak before cooking it will likely be unappetizing but not spoil.

You could always take a fishing pole on these extended sea voyages. Or is fishing too "white trash"?

http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives...f-the-12-year-old-burger-testing-results.html

A vacuum sealed cooked steak is going to have a lot of moisture.

The room temperature one will spoil.

The other option is to take a live animal and slaughter it on the boat. Then you don't have to be concerned with keeping a steak from spoiling and it will have plenty of moo left.

mmb said:

The other option is to take a live animal and slaughter it on the boat. Then you don't have to be concerned with keeping a steak from spoiling and it will have plenty of moo left.

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How would you keep it alive while you were eating parts of it, though? Could you, say, vacuum seal a leg? I can't imagine that being humane. Why would you be so heartless as to suggest such a thing?

AZ_IPA said:

http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives...f-the-12-year-old-burger-testing-results.html

A vacuum sealed cooked steak is going to have a lot of moisture.

The room temperature one will spoil.

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You are forgetting that spoilage is a biological process involving living bacteria. If the bacteria can be killed at those temperatures, spoilage will not occur. You can pressure can meat and keep it for many years with no spoilage. The only difference here is that the temperature / time equation is far different. The question is can we achieve a 100% kill or not? This is real meat, not a "Rat Burger".

H.W.

Anaerobic and facultative bacteria eagerly await the cabinet steak.

The votes seem to be in............ I will begin the experiment about a week into November, as I'll be taking a trip next week. I'll try to document it on at least as weekly basis. It may show spoilage within days, or a week or two, or it may not show any sign at all. I believe that any "air" that shows up in a vacuum sealed bag is a sign of bacterial action. Any spoilage should result in some swelling.

H.W.

IrregularPulse said:

You could always take a fishing pole on these extended sea voyages. Or is fishing too "white trash"?

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A "meat line" is kind of a given, but it's not uncommon to go weeks without catching anything.

Zuljin said:

Anaerobic and facultative bacteria eagerly await the cabinet steak.

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Again, the extended exposure time at elevated temp should kill virtually all non spore forming. The real concern is botulism. Bacteria are largely on the surface of a piece of meat, and the 2500 F direct flame sear is intended to alleviate this problem as much as possible........... sear while holding with preheated tongs, drop in bag, and seal, all in the shortest possible time, to reduce exposure to a minimum. 24 hours at 133 is likely to wipe out what you pick up between the sear and the bagging. I've thought about this a lot, and have been canning all my life, both pressure and water bath. My major was biology..... those many years ago, so I wasn't exactly born yesterday, and I'm not exactly ignorant.
This is an experiment, and if it works, it will be an experiment every single time. The only possible conclusion if it does work is that it CAN work, not that it will work each and every time.

H.W.

mmb said:

The other option is to take a live animal and slaughter it on the boat. Then you don't have to be concerned with keeping a steak from spoiling and it will have plenty of moo left.

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Cats perhaps? "The other white meat". They are easy keepers, and good eating. They can also be great companions. Good natured, entertaining and personable, and good to eat. It doesn't get much better ;-) Some of the best wild game I've ever eaten was lion.

H.W.

*edited*

In your canning exprience, do you ever process your cans at 133 degrees? I'm guessing not.

Owly055 said:

Cats perhaps? "The other white meat". They are easy keepers, and good eating. They can also be great companions. Good natured, entertaining and personable, and good to eat. It doesn't get much better ;-) Some of the best wild game I've ever eaten was lion.



H.W.

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Guinepig.

Scottanooga said:

In your canning exprience, do you ever process your cans at 133 degrees? I'm guessing not.

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No I don't............ but I also do not process them for 24 hours. It's well documented that sterilization is a function of both temperature and time. It is also documented that boiling temp for example will kill botulism spores, if you boil for 30 minutes (sea level), but at the temps reached in a pressure canner, it only takes a few minutes. Don't quote me on that number, but essentially it means 30 minutes at the full 212 all the way through, not 30 minutes from the time the water comes to a boil.

Remember that I will be searing the surface briefly with a 2500 deg flame which will almost instantly kill anything it touches. I was taught that bacteria are on the surface of meat...... which is a "folk wisdom" based on the fact that meat spoils from the outside in. The "surface geography" will determine the effectiveness of the searing process. The temp will not penetrate very far.

In any case it is going to be an interesting experiment. I've found a few references on detecting possible botulism issues, and they all refer to the exact protocols I had determined to use. I deliberately chose 90 days because I wanted to make sure that any decomposition / spoilage had ample time to manifest itself. I'm not the ignorant fool some people here seem to believe me to be. I was a biology major in college, and I've been messing about with microbes of various types since I was a child, and my binocular microscope was my prized possession. I currently have more live microbial cultures going than probably anybody else here except those who are doing serious work with yeasts. Sourdough, kefir, kombucha, several varieties of yeast, tempeh, and two batches of vinegar.

The FDA and CDC, and others specialize in the "Reefer Madness" type of warnings.... and with good reason. They publish "rules of thumb" with a huge "fudge factor" built in....... again with good reason. What they publish has to be foolproof enough for fools! I understand that. Unfortunately the actual parameters of temperature and time are buried in dry scientific reports laden with terminology that will put you to sleep.

In contrast, I'm taking this experiment to the edge. I'm not trying to develop a procedure that every Tom Dick and Harry will use, nor would I ever advocate duplicating it. "Don't Try This at Home". The very long time period is "insurance", and even with that very long time period, I have no intention of consuming the product.

Suppose the product looks good in every way, which seems improbable, but suppose it does. It shows no sign of swelling at all, no off color or odor, and looks identical to it's frozen counterpart.... which I strongly doubt. It looks and smells wholesome........... do I dare taste it?? I'm not talking about actually eating it, but tasting it, and spitting it out. Botulism is not "infectious". The bacteria taken internally cannot make you sick if you are a normal healthy adult. It produces the most deadly toxin known to man as a byproduct of it's metabolism in an anaerobic environment. If it passes all the tests.......... do I taste it? ;-) Would you? Well that question is moot..... You wouldn't do it in the first place!

Everybody here knows I have a penchant for pushing things well beyond "comfort levels, and trying outrageous new things. It's my nature. Many things work, some better than others, and some things fall on their face. When I bought the Annova, I immediately began looking for things I could do with it.

This is not something I would expect a 100% repeatable success rate. It's not something that could ever be promoted as a wonderful new way to preserve meat. If it works at all, it will have a failure rate. The ability to detect those failures, which are inevitable is if anything more important than the procedure itself. And again, I repeat that the long time period is a safety factor in this respect. I would sooner eat something that had been preserved this way for 90 days than for two weeks.

H.W.

Owly055 said:

Cats perhaps? "The other white meat". They are easy keepers, and good eating. They can also be great companions. Good natured, entertaining and personable, and good to eat. It doesn't get much better ;-) Some of the best wild game I've ever eaten was lion.

H.W.

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So cat is up for consideration, but ground beef is too white trash to make the list. Got it.

So, how were the tacos?

Auger said:

So cat is up for consideration, but ground beef is too white trash to make the list. Got it.

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I mean, I call it a different name, but it's a favorite snack.

brew38 said:

http://nsrdec.natick.army.mil/LIBRARY/59-69/R66-16.pdf

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Good idea. Should do this on the nuclear powered rescue submarine.

Aren't there plenty of bacteria that can survive beyond 132? From what I understand the main bacteria that we're worried about in the "food safety" world top out at around 126, which is why usually adding a few degrees margin to that to 129-131 is enough to make food safe...

But I'm not entirely sure that'll stop food from spoiling.

That said, your freezer steak will be fine. I think the safest option is to "flash freeze" it in ice water to get much quicker chill times than just tossing it in the freezer, but I think that one will be fine.

Interested to hear about the cabinet steak... Please post pictures, as disgusting as they might be lol...

I'd point out also that when we talk about sanitizing the brewhouse the way I do it (fill my stainless fermenter with 1-2 gallons of water and then direct-fire it until it's full of steam) isn't actually sterile. To get true sterilization you need something like 250 degrees (autoclave).

That's why I'm guessing that your cabinet steak will be at HIGH risk of spoilage.

bwarbiany said:

I'd point out also that when we talk about sanitizing the brewhouse the way I do it (fill my stainless fermenter with 1-2 gallons of water and then direct-fire it until it's full of steam) isn't actually sterile. To get true sterilization you need something like 250 degrees (autoclave).

That's why I'm guessing that your cabinet steak will be at HIGH risk of spoilage.

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You may be right....... however there are two factors here. Temperature and Time. Nobody cooks things for 48 hours to sterilize.

Today is day 3 in the cupboard. So far so good. No sign of any changes whatsoever. The 90 day time frame is largely with incubation in mind. I want to give the microbes lots of time to do their evil deeds. To do less would mean that evidence might not be clearly observable.

H.W.

I'm detecting small "air bubbles" in two of the three cupboard steaks. One more significant than the other. The third exhibits none of this.
I've moved all 3 into a secondary containment as a precaution due to the fact that bacterial reproduction tends to accelerate rapidly in ideal conditions. Temp where these are is about 80F. If this is spoilage, I will likely see unmistakable inflation within hours, so I will be monitoring these all day every few hours.
There is no discoloration of any other signs than the bubbles.

H.W.

There is now no doubt whatsoever that two of the three steaks kept at room temp are spoiling. They look like meat just dropped in a zip lock bag with no serious attempt to exhaust much of the air. The third steak kept at room temp looks perfect so far.
The real question is what the spoilage agent is. Is it a spore forming microbe like botulism, or did I fail to achieve a full kill of ordinary bacteria with 48 hours at 133??

I fired off a letter to the microbiology department, hoping to elicit some interest.

H.W.

Or you could maybe just read this report...


"Guidelines for restaurant sous vide cooking safety in British Columbia - January 2016"

AZ_IPA said:

Or you could maybe just read this report...


"Guidelines for restaurant sous vide cooking safety in British Columbia - January 2016"

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You're right...... I could have. I appreciate the excellent link!! However I could have simply accepted a lot of guidelines for a lot of things, and I would not be nearly as knowledgeable about many things as I am. It's my nature to test the limits. Guidelines are made with lots of "fudge factor" built in. I could have simply accepted that a mash should be an hour long, and I would never have pioneered the 15-20 minute mash, and that a one hour boil is necessary because of DMS, which it is NOT with modern malts. I could have accepted it all, and I would not know that no boil / no chill brewing is possible and works.
In my own profession, people come to me, because I'm the guy who's gone to the limits and experimented, and knows what really works and what doesn't and why. Nobody else does that. I work on machinery, welding, engines, etc (self employed for over 30 years). I'm the guy who has actually resurfaced a warped diesel engine block in the field using a large bastard file, because the loss of income if the irrigation system was taken off line long enough for a tear down and machine shop job was prohibitive. The result was flatter than you can get with a machine for reasons I won't explain here. That was 15 years ago, and it has not blown another head gasket in over 20,000 hours of operation. I'm the guy who builds tooling to machine something in place, welds things that "can't be welded", and violates many other "can't do" rules. I'm the guy who designs re-engineered parts and has them cast and machined so they won't fail again, develops special lubrication strategies to reduce unacceptable wear, and countless other things. People call me, because they know I can find or develop a solution to their problem.
I've played with microbes of many types since I was a child, it's a passion of mine. One customer of mine saves about $5K per year by producing an active culture himself that allows him to bale his hay with a higher moisture content, using a system I developed for him. Previously he bought a commercial product.
I don't approach things the way most other folks do. In this case I had a theory that was in opposition to the common wisdom, and the fact that one of three of these steaks seems unchanged shows not that I was wrong, but that I was probably right, but that my procedure was less than perfect....... which I already knew. If all three had spoiled, I would have been discouraged. That one survived demonstrates that there is some potential here, and a modified procedure is needed to achieve the desired result.
I'm far from discouraged, and if I'd adhered to "guidelines", I would never have gotten this far. Steak 3 has been in an 80F dark environment since Nov 14, and shows no signs of spoilage. The target date is Feb 14.

H.W.

That's weird.

H.W. Howard?

Is your first name hog, second worts?

Is this Harry Potter?

Seems I got lost, or its hallucinations from the microbes.

Carry on. I did the impossible, too. But I can't describe that in polite society.

Not that this is, saving rotting meat and all.

TXCrash said:

That's weird.

H.W. Howard?

Is your first name hog, second worts?

Is this Harry Potter?

Seems I got lost, or its hallucinations from the microbes.

Carry on. I did the impossible, too. But I can't describe that in polite society.

Not that this is, saving rotting meat and all.

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I think the point is that it's NOT rotting. Two did, the third is unchanged and showing no sign of decomposition. One out of three for as first try is clearly not a failure. I have a procedure that works in it's most rudimentary form, 1/3 of the time. It means that there is a potential of making it work at a much higher percentage.
Pressure canning meat, or any other process that does not involve refrigeration destroys what I like most about meat, that rich, medium rare juiciness of meat that still has some moo in it. The long sous vide cooking at 133 leaves the meat in medium rare condition, and the vacuum storage is clearly preventing deterioration, at least thus far. At the end of 90 days of warm storage it will be interesting to see what the result looks and smells like.

............. The signature was a screw up. I normally sign with my initials here, and often go back and add or remove parts of a post afterwards, and absentmindedly sign again........ I had a "senior moment". I think I'm entitled to one once in awhile ;-)

H.W.

I must confess, I did not read all... did catch that you do have preferences in eating and association... myself lives in Africa and lion can be a delicatessen if prepared with a lot of marinate/sauce, but then pig will be better/cheaper the same way.

My suggestion is to take your steake, grill it to perfection and eat it while to your liking with a beer. If you have to travel, eat what you get or open a can.

Setsumi said:

I must confess, I did not read all... did catch that you do have preferences in eating and association... myself lives in Africa and lion can be a delicatessen if prepared with a lot of marinate/sauce, but then pig will be better/cheaper the same way.

My suggestion is to take your steake, grill it to perfection and eat it while to your liking with a beer. If you have to travel, eat what you get or open a can.

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Good advice, but you probably have gathered that I am not "normal". Normal folks don't have two steaks infected with botulism in the freezer. I'm a passionate experimenter. I challenge the established norms constantly and seek to find the real limits. I'm an iconoclast by nature and by inclination.
What part of Africa do you live in? It is my plan to sail down the coast of South East Africa on the Mozambique and Agulas currents west of Madagascar, and around the horn of Africa in the not too distant future, some of the most dangerous waters on earth, riding the Bengual current north far off the skeleton coast of Namibia, and stopping at St Helena on the way to South America. Merely a dream at this point. Perhaps we could have a beer in Maputo. Durban, Port Elisabeth, Capetown, or Walvis Bay.
The only lion I've eaten has been American Mountain Lion (Puma) (cougar). I live in a wild and remote place, and I've seen them a number of times, and been stalked by them, and hunted them. A truly beautiful animal. There is nothing to compare to the feeling of the hair standing up on the back of your neck, as you sense that presence, when alone and unarmed high in the rockies unarmed in mid winter. I once turned and charged one on cross country skis, with a ski pole as my only weapon. Fortunately for me, she fled, or you would be reading about this in the newspaper. With these animals fear can get you killed!
We must never forget that we are at the TOP of the food chain. Humans are the deadliest predator that have ever existed.

H.W.

Yet we save rotting steaks.

No wonder we have a zombie infatuation. Rotting flesh, you know.

Owly055 said:

What part of Africa do you live in?

South Africa - in the dry central part.

It is my plan to sail down the coast of South East Africa on the Mozambique and Agulas currents west of Madagascar, and around the horn of Africa in the not too distant future, some of the most dangerous waters on earth, riding the Bengual current north far off the skeleton coast of Namibia, and stopping at St Helena on the way to South America. Merely a dream at this point. Perhaps we could have a beer in Maputo. Durban, Port Elisabeth, Capetown, or Walvis Bay.

If you promise not to bring your steak with, roughly between Port Elisabeth and Cape Town is a place called Mosselbay - I spend my Decembers there. There are quite some craft breweries around.

The only lion I've eaten has been American Mountain Lion (Puma) (cougar). I live in a wild and remote place, and I've seen them a number of times, and been stalked by them, and hunted them. A truly beautiful animal. There is nothing to compare to the feeling of the hair standing up on the back of your neck, as you sense that presence, when alone and unarmed high in the rockies unarmed in mid winter. I once turned and charged one on cross country skis, with a ski pole as my only weapon. Fortunately for me, she fled, or you would be reading about this in the newspaper. With these animals fear can get you killed!
We must never forget that we are at the TOP of the food chain. Humans are the deadliest predator that have ever existed.

H.W.

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good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

Setsumi said:

good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

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It'll be a madder experiment.

Setsumi said:

good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

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Not much danger of that ............... today is day 9 in an 80F dark cupboard. No sign of inflation yet or any other signs of decomposition / rotting yet. Remember that decomposition / rotting, is a biological process. If there are no living microbes, it can't rot.
I examine the meat at least daily, and it is in a small closed plastic tote. The two that did spoil are frozen now and awaiting examination by some willing microbiology student..........if I can find one.


H.W.

I can't help but wonder what exactly the point of this experiment is. We have the technology to transport cuts of meat for long journeys and prepare them en route. There is no reason to transport a likely spoiled cut of beef with you.

You have already accepted that you aren't killing botulism spores. What is it you hope to gain by potentially exposing yourself to a lethal bacterium?

blizzard said:

I can't help but wonder what exactly the point of this experiment is. We have the technology to transport cuts of meat for long journeys and prepare them en route. There is no reason to transport a likely spoiled cut of beef with you.

You have already accepted that you aren't killing botulism spores. What is it you hope to gain by potentially exposing yourself to a lethal bacterium?

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I think your reaction is pretty typical: "what's the point", and I don't have a really good answer to that. I feel that you assessment that the cut of beef is likely spoiled in unrealistic. Spoilage shows signs. Bacterium do not propagate and produce decomposition without leaving evidence, which is the reason I have a 90 day time frame for this.

15 days into the experiment, it appears to be 33% successful, which to me is quite impressive considering my methodology and the fact that I do not have a sterile environment to work in.
You and I do not look at things the same way obviously. While I do not regard "convention" with contempt, as it may appear, I do question it, and often explore the limits. Many conventions were established long ago, and designed to be 100% fool proof. If I was not inclined to explore the limits, I would never have discovered that I can achieve total conversion with a 10 minute mash, and developed a methodology that allowed me to do a 20-30 minute mash with good results, and I would not be doing a 30 minute boil. I would never have learned that no-boil / no-chill works, though the result does not thrill me as far as clarity goes.
I've been doing this sort of thing since childhood. I often don't know what use if any the knowledge gained will be put to. One microbial experiment I did 30 years ago has saved a friend of mine over $100K in his farming operation. A classic case was what my best friend and I did at age 12. We set out to see how high of a structure we could jump off and walk away unscathed. It was a project that horrified everybody who saw us doing it, and they asked the same question...."what's the point". We finally called it good when we could jump from the peak of the roof on our two storey house easily. We jumped off the picnic in the back yard constantly, practicing the "tuck and roll" landing. Learning not to try to resist the forces signficantly, but to redirect them in ways that would cushion the landing. It also trained us to go into an "accelerated thought" mental state during which the few seconds of the fall telescoped so that we were able to assess every aspect of the jump in milliseconds, and make decisions and physical adjustments needed during that very brief time. What was the point? There was no specific point. Who needs to jump nearly 30'? But that training has saved my ass numerous times. It has allowed me to drop into that mode of thought during emergencies on the highway and elsewhere, and make the right decision and action in a split second. It has allowed me to land well when thrown off horses a number of times. I spent two years of my life on horseback virtually all day long every day as a job, and accidents WILL happen with horses. It allowed me to fall from a tall haystack when tossing bales down to load my girlfriend's pickup, and come up unscathed. In that milliseconds from the time the bale under my foot "blew out" until I hit the ground, I made the only choices I had. I was able to twist such I threw myself away from the vehicle, and was able to use a brace pole which leaned up against the stack by catching it diagonally across my back so that it cushioned my fall somewhat and launched me outward, and I hit in the classic "tuck and roll" landing. When I went off the top of the stack, I knew exactly what was going to happen and how to position myself...... and how to land. It was all settled in my mind within a fraction of a second. Needless to say she was horrified when she saw me come off the top of the stack. I literally "launched myself" with what little purchase I had so that my actions were like those of a high diver. I wasn't even bruised, and we continued loading the pickup, but I was a bit wiser about where to put my feet. I never told her the story.
So what's the point of this experiment......... I honestly don't know. But I do know that after the 90 days I plan to run it, if there are no observable signs of decomposition, the product will the wholesome.

H.W.

Alright, which of you guys stole Owl's meds????






j/k

What do you mean by 33% successful?

Owly055 said:

I think your reaction is pretty typical: "what's the point",

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My reaction is not "what's the point of learning through experimentation" it is: you have acknowledged that you haven't killed all of the pathogens (particularly botulism) and therefore you cannot produce a product that is safe to consume. As a result, you cannot have a successful result, regardless of how the meat appears. What is it you are trying to confirm? That you can make an ok looking piece of meat that is not edible?

Owly055 said:

15 days into the experiment, it appears to be 33% successful, which to me is quite impressive considering my methodology and the fact that I do not have a sterile environment to work in.

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A sterile environment would not have provided adequate conditions to kill botulism spores. It may appear unspoiled, but again, that doesn't make it wholesome or safe to eat. That is why canned food guidelines repeatedly warn that proper protocol is important. Food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful.

Owly055 said:

If I was not inclined to explore the limits, I would never have discovered that I can achieve total conversion with a 10 minute mash, and developed a methodology that allowed me to do a 20-30 minute mash with good results, and I would not be doing a 30 minute boil. I would never have learned that no-boil / no-chill works, though the result does not thrill me as far as clarity goes.

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If you were so inclined, you could have read work done by commercial breweries, who have researched shortened mash times. You could have researched historical no boil styles. Or you could have read the forums of our Australian friends, who pioneered no-chill techniques. None of these techniques require belligerent experimentation, simply an open mind and a few hours free for reading.

Owly055 said:

Long story about jumping

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You are certainly welcome to experiment and enrich your life in whatever legal ways you see fit. If you want to store meat in your cupboards, go for it. Just don't come here encouraging others that this is a wholesome product with a 33% success rate, when the end result is likely to be harmful and potentially fatal to whomever tries it. This is a forum that tries to help noobs, not kill them.