Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

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Clifton said:
Also there were a few guys that mentioned Honey malt? What's the verdict? Did it provide the balance for the tart? Thanks.
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I did a 4.5 gallon batch in October (only had a 5 gal carboy open at the time).

3.5 gal Food Lion Apple Juice
1.8 lbs Light LME
8 oz Honey Malt
3 oz British Crystal 135-165L
Used Windsor Yeast

1/4 oz Amarillo 9.1% AA @30min
1/4 oz Amarillo @ 5 min (wanted a little of the grapefruit aroma)

OG 1.051
FG 1.013

Racked after 2 weeks and added Gelatin... a 2 weeks later bottled it and it is really clear.

The Honey Malt works well... might step it up to 12 oz next time. The British Crystal kind of makes up for the fact I used light LME instead of Amber...

All of my recruited taste testers approved and everything I brought went quickly the night before Thanksgiving... :tank:
 
I've had a 3 gallon carboy in th fridge for the last 10 weeks that I just bottled last night. Don't ask me why it sat there for so long. It is as smooth as can be. We drank alot of it before bottling! My fear is that all the yeast settled out and it won't carbonate. I did leave it out for 24 hours before bottling.
 
I have made two batches now, but they stay very cloudy, unlike my other ciders. On the 2nd batch I added pectic enzyme and a month later with no change, gelatin fining...still no luck. How clear is this supposed to be?
 
"This yeast allows malt and hop character to dominate the profile. It ferments dry and crisp, slightly tart, fruity and well balanced. Beers will finish clean and neutral. Ferments well down to 64°F (18°C)."

I think you could use it based on wyeast's description.
 
Powers said:
cidah, my blending experiment continues. i made a real sweet caramel beer with some 60L and 120L and fermented it with nottingham at about 62 degrees for 8 days. then i warmed it up to 70 degrees for 3 days, and at the same time, i put my cider in the fridge at near freezing for those 3 days. then i warmed up the cider to 60 degrees and blended the two. now i just have to hope that wine yeast doesn't kick back up to take out my residual malty sweetness from the beer ;)
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Hey Powers, how goes it? Did you try any of this yet? How long are you planning to let it rest before you try?

I am about to bottle some dry cider for champagne purposes and I am trying to decide if I should mock your experiment with the leftover dry cider.

Thanks!
 
Just bottled my first batch of Graf. It smelled and tasted extremely sour. No sweetness, no apple flavor, no malt flavor. I read a post somewhere near the middle of this massive thread where someone said that they had a similar problem, but after about a month of bottle conditioning, the graf turned out great.

I ended up with an FG of 1.010 after about a one month primary. I did notice that the flavor had imporved greatly over a taste test a couple weeks ago. Could the longer primary have caused the sourness? Anyone have any other suggestions as to a potential cause of the sourness, or (even better) a solution?
 
Just bottled my first batch of Graf. It smelled and tasted extremely sour. No sweetness, no apple flavor, no malt flavor. I read a post somewhere near the middle of this massive thread where someone said that they had a similar problem, but after about a month of bottle conditioning, the graf turned out great.

I ended up with an FG of 1.010 after about a one month primary. I did notice that the flavor had imporved greatly over a taste test a couple weeks ago. Could the longer primary have caused the sourness? Anyone have any other suggestions as to a potential cause of the sourness, or (even better) a solution?
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My batches of Graff have been very tart when tasted during primary. The tartness mellows pretty quickly after that though. A few weeks after primary the sweet/tart has become a lot more balanced in the batches I have made.
 
I've not made a Graff yet but it is an upcoming brew.

Concerning tartness....I've noticed that the Apfelwein I made with juice containing Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) had a tartness that I did not like. My most recent batch was with Vitaman C free juice and it was much better. Still not what I'm looking for so hopefully Graff will do the trick.
 
Bottled my first batch tonight. If it tastes half as good carbed as it does flat then I will be a happy, happy girl.

2lbs Maris Otter
3oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine
2oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
½oz Roasted Barley

BIAB at 158 for 45 minutes, got 1.5 gallons of wort, OG of 1.45.

30 minute boil, .25oz of Amarillo. Added 1tsp of Irish moss at 15 minutes.

Cooled to 80 and then added to the primary where 1.5 gallons of cheap apple juice was waiting.

Pitched 6 grams of Safale US-05. Racked into a secondary after 6 days. In secondary for 6 days, with a 2 day cold crash.

FG was 1.010. I forgot to take the OG with the apple juice in it because I'm an idiot.

I look forward to my next batch. I think I'm going to add some Honey malt.
 
CidahMastah said:
Hey Powers, how goes it? Did you try any of this yet? How long are you planning to let it rest before you try?

I am about to bottle some dry cider for champagne purposes and I am trying to decide if I should mock your experiment with the leftover dry cider.

Thanks!
Click to expand...


sorry for the delay in responding. the "caramel" beer fermented out as expected, with about a 15 FG.

as the beer finished fermenting, i cold crashed the cider in the fridge for about 2 days.

after warming the cider back to room temp, i racked the 1 gallon of beer in with 2 gallons of dry cider. unfortunately, i never did taste the blend. i'll make an effort to get a thief sample of the gravity soon, and also taste it when i do. but it is worth note that i don't believe any fermentation occurred when i blended the two--at least not when i was paying attention. this is just cellaring right now at temps around 60 degrees, and i didn't plan on drinking it until March at the earliest.
 
I gotcha - sounds like I will be running an experiment in your honor when I get to my cider bottling (I decided to wait another couple weeks before I jump on my cider).

So just to get it right, you fermented each out separately, then cold crashed and combined for bulk aging. By default this is what I will have to do as well, since my cider is already 3 months in.

I think I am going to do three groups, a 1:1, 2:1, and 3:2 cider:wort ratio. That is depending on what sized fermenters I have at my disposal. Or hopefully, the cider is so darn good on its own it won't need any fooling around with :)

Thanks for the heads up - hopefully march will prove to be a happy time for your experiment! I am sure it will work out well.
 
Quick question for any Graff veterans. I have had a batch of original recipe on for 3 weeks now and the kraeusen still hasn't dropped out. Should i see this threw till all has subsided. This is what I planned on doing just don't want to F it up and ferment it to dry. It has been at a constant 64.
 
I vote: Let it ride. Since this is a cider the kraeusen hangs out longer than with beer. Fermentation Typically is longer too.

While I was not overly impressed with the Graff I made I hope yours turns out well (I did use cheap musslemans cider juice though). Next cider season I am gonna allocate some fresh cider to run with the recipe and hopefully that will turn out better. Mine was drinkable, but too acidic for mine or the wife's tastes.
 
Hi all, my first post.

Just started a 3 gallon batch of Graff last night. Followed instructions closely, but had to use 100% Amber DME, and used Wyeast 1056. But the wort came out much darker than what I had imagined. Is this normal? Even after mixing in the rest of the juice and pitching yeast, it is dark brown, not any shade of amber.

Should I be worried? Does it lighten over the fermentation cycle?

Would appreciate any advice, or calming voice of experience telling me I am fine. If I am.

Thanks.
 
Mine was brownish during ferment etc. As it dropped out and cleared it turned into a beautiful amber. Did you cool the wort prior to adding to the cider?

I did use 50/50 amber/light DME - mine was tannish to brown - not dark brown. I suspect you will have a noice dark amber color unless your didn't cool the wort to ~70F prior to adding to your cider
 
CidahMastah said:
Mine was brownish during ferment etc. As it dropped out and cleared it turned into a beautiful amber. Did you cool the wort prior to adding to the cider?

I did use 50/50 amber/light DME - mine was tannish to brown - not dark brown. I suspect you will have a noice dark amber color unless your didn't cool the wort to ~70F prior to adding to your cider
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Yes, I did cool the wort down to mid 60's before dumping it in the fermenter and adding the cider and then pitching yeast. It looked like strong coffee before it went into the primary. I am probably just being paranoid, but I have never brewed anything but hard cider and mead before this, so I have no good comparison point. I just saw some pics of finished product ready to drink, and it is so light compared to what I have here. So, you say the DME give it its color? If so, makes sense the 100% amber DME would be darker, huh? Geesh, lots to learn here. But, at least, this stuff is ready to drink just after a few weeks. No 6-12 month aging like cider and mead. I like that. Thanks for your help.
 
I hear you on the cider - see my pics :) I have over 100 gallons working this season alone.

You used DME right? I have heard that LME can sometimes darken with age. It is possible that the same happens to DME over time. Was your malt extract fresh? As a rule though - the extract will determine the final color of your brew (pending specialty grain, etc additions - can't recall what you used for those)

I did brew an all LME amber extract clone (arrogant bastard) and the wort is a reddish, tan. So I think perhaps either your specialty grains or LME are contributiung to the color. Have no fear - It should be lighter than the current color when the sediment drops out.

I think either way it will taste good though!

If you are a cider maker, have you ever tried the newell wood chuck clone? I just did with some "ok" cider, I was really impressed (ok cider to great woodchuck tasting hooch). Kinda like cheating, but very tasty. I did that last night too - waiting on the carb results.

Reason I mention it is.... I think you could take a young cider and do the same (bring it to drinking status ahead of time). In my case the dry cider I used was 3 months old.
 
Is it normal for this stuff to have an almost violent fermentation? Like I posted earlier, mine took off within 24 hours, and still has a big, fluffy kreusen. I've never seen that before in any other cider or beer I've ever brewed.:eek:
 
I brewed this at the end of November, and it's a great one to have in the lineup as an alternative to beer. My wife loves it too - she told me I have to make it again before summer, since our first batch is running low. It does keep getting smoother with every week in the bottle. I've ordered up the grain and DME for another batch, now I just have to get to the supermarket and pick up 4 more gal of cider.
It's great stuff - thanks for sharing the recipe! :mug:
 
CidahMastah said:
I hear you on the cider - see my pics :) I have over 100 gallons working this season alone.

You used DME right? I have heard that LME can sometimes darken with age. It is possible that the same happens to DME over time. Was your malt extract fresh? As a rule though - the extract will determine the final color of your brew (pending specialty grain, etc additions - can't recall what you used for those)

I did brew an all LME amber extract clone (arrogant bastard) and the wort is a reddish, tan. So I think perhaps either your specialty grains or LME are contributiung to the color. Have no fear - It should be lighter than the current color when the sediment drops out.

I think either way it will taste good though!

If you are a cider maker, have you ever tried the newell wood chuck clone? I just did with some "ok" cider, I was really impressed (ok cider to great woodchuck tasting hooch). Kinda like cheating, but very tasty. I did that last night too - waiting on the carb results.

Reason I mention it is.... I think you could take a young cider and do the same (bring it to drinking status ahead of time). In my case the dry cider I used was 3 months old.
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I really appriciate your help and advice. I have not tried the newell woodchuck clone, but it sounds intriguing. I need to look it up. Hardest thing about making a good hard cider or mead is ... waiting. However, the alternative of drinking it young is not a good one. I tried one of my current batches last week as it was going into the secondary, and about gagged. I think turpintine would have a slightly better flavor than this mess. But, age seems to be the fix for any of these brews. Wonder how long most people age the Graff before drinking?
 
MikeyC99 said:
Wonder how long most people age the Graff before drinking?
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3 weeks is the average i think and its good
I've had a bottle at 10 months that was complex tasting but really not life changingly different. And i've some 4 unopened bottles that are 15 months now.
 
MikeyC99 said:
I tried one of my current batches last week as it was going into the secondary, and about gagged. I think turpintine would have a slightly better flavor than this mess.
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Haha - it is sooo true. Cider is absolute rat/camel piss on fire :drunk:, until you give it some mellow time. The same for wines - like my dandelion one. I nearly dumped it. VERY glad I didn't.
 
CidahMastah said:
Haha - it is sooo true. Cider is absolute rat/camel piss on fire :drunk:, until you give it some mellow time. The same for wines - like my dandelion one. I nearly dumped it. VERY glad I didn't.
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Yeah I racked this a few days ago after a 1 month "primary" and it tasted like **** so hopefully after it sits another month and then in bottles another month it tastes decent... time heals all right???
 
I tried another last night 4 months after brewing, and I'm not really digging it. I was hoping for more malt, but I'll just keep the bottles and try them at various intervals.
 
elproducto said:
I tried another last night 4 months after brewing, and I'm not really digging it. I was hoping for more malt, but I'll just keep the bottles and try them at various intervals.
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Crap man.... I am not a huge fan either and was hoping time would be a healer. If I try this recipe again I would have to work on some modifications. The whole idea behind this for me was, quicker drinkable cider, not the case for me.
 
First batch is in the carboy.
2lbs Briess Gold DME
.5lb G.W. Crystal 120L
.5oz Cluster 5%AA
in 1 gallon and 4 gallons of Vitamin C free cheap Apple Juice.
Pitched harvested WY1056 that I put in some Apple Juice on the stir plate yesterday.
 
The graff is looking good. And bubbling away.

2# light DME
1# Wheat DME
1# Caramel 120L

1.25g H2O
4g Apple juice
1oz French Strisslespalt 2.6% AA
2 pkg Nottingham
 
Hi all. My first post after lurking in the forum for a few weeks now. Good to be here.

Just brewed my first batch of graff. (Yea!) Followed Brandon's recipe fairly closely-

8 oz of 60L
1 to 1.5 oz of torrified wheat
0.5 oz Yakima Golding hops (5.9%AA)
1# each of Amber & Light DME
I used 3 gallons of organic apple juice and one gallon of conventional. Two of the gallons had Vitamin C added.
Nottingham yeast pitched at 68 degrees into carboy that resides in 67 degree room.

OG is 1.059.
Will post results when they happen.
Will be glad to have some feedback as well.
Cheers.
 
Brandon O said:
.25 lb of 60L

I wouldn't mess with the torified wheat.

Steep that in .25 gallons of water.

then add .5 lbs of DME and boil for 5 mins, don't mess with the hops for a one gallon batch.

add all that in a one gallon fermenter with .75 gallons apple juice.

use the whole pack of nottingham. you may need a blow off.
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put the all grain right in the water, letting it go into the fermenter?
And if doubling this for a 2 gallon batch, would a 1/4 oz of ~5% Hops be appropriate?
I'm new and am really winging it but the original 5 (edit: er... 4) gallon recipe called for the hops, so I'm trying to accommodate.
 
I've started a batch that will be just under two gallons- I'm leaving a couple inches at the top of a 2 gallon fermenting bucket. I'll be setting up with a 3/8" hose for a blow off, holding the airlock until the bubbling volcano stage has passed.
FWIW,I got all my supplies at Wine Barley Hops Homebrewing on Bustleton Pike - the guy in there was a lot of help and he does seem to have a good selection in inventory.

1 lb Bries Light Golden
1/2 lb Muntons Crystal Malt 60L
1/4 oz Vanguard Pellet 5%
1/2 gallon of water

1 pkg Nottingham

I did pay for a muslin bag but in chatting it up with the store owner, we both managed to NOT get it in the bucket with the rest of my purchases. I'm gonna strain the bulk with a steel colander and hope for the best.

The Worst is cooling now- 122 deg at the last check of the thermometer. I have it outside with the lid on it, setting on a concrete step. This is the most time consuming part of the process.
Prepping yeast in 8 oz water. At this point I've gotten too much of a head start.
I did buy a hydrometer and will post a reading taken before the pitch.

Edit: Reading before yeast 1.062
Edit: 8 hours later and my blow off is slowing bubbling. Seems to be on track. /thumbsup
Edit: 17 hours and my 3/8" blow hose is popping a bubble every second.
The temp varies from 60-65 depending house thermostat setting. Therm read 59 on the floor with stat at 62 overnight. Primary is about 24" off the floor.


Edit: Two weeks passed and have racked to two 1 gallon jugs. Went directly into the bottom of the fridge. Reads 1.010
 
Hi Buktwild,
Don't put the grain itself into the fermenter. Just the liquid created from steeping the grain. If you didn't use a grain bag to contain the grain during steeping, you'll need to strain it from the wort before adding wort to the fermenter. (Remember to sanitize the strainer.) Good luck.

Added a blow off tube to my fermenter a couple of hours ago. Its bubbling very, very well after 24 hours.
 
dcampbell said:
Hi Buktwild,
Don't put the grain itself into the fermenter. Just the liquid created from steeping the grain. If you didn't use a grain bag to contain the grain during steeping, you'll need to strain it from the wort before adding wort to the fermenter. (Remember to sanitize the strainer.) Good luck.

Added a blow off tube to my fermenter a couple of hours ago. Its bubbling very, very well after 24 hours.
Click to expand...

Thanks for support... yeah, sanitized everything, somethings several times: spoons, measuring cups, pot lids.
I have a nice 8" mesh colander and it did pretty well straining the wort.


Yeah by all accounts this stuff ferments vigorously. In my naive state, I suspect that is part of it being ready in just two weeks. I plan on leaving the blow off installed for at least four days, but I think I'll know when the rumbling stops.
 
I would leave it in your primary no less than 7 days; but I personally would leave it in there 2-3 weeks. This will give it time to ferment and sediment to settle out better (IMO).

According to the recipe Brandon says it should be drinkable in 5 weeks from start of fermentation. This works out perfectly for you if you are bottling with priming sugar. (3 weeks in primary, 2 weeks getting carbed in bottles)
 
I followed Brandon's recipe except used wheat DME instead of torrified wheat. I have made two batches and they both were delicious. I did the first like Brandon said two weeks in the fermenter then kegged it. The second batch I used fresh cider and left it in the fermenter for 4 weeks. Was even better than the first.
 

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