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Hey guys, I'm a (fairly senior) Building Controls Technician by trade. Currently 7 years with Siemens. I've been curious about the PLC side of controls for a while. Building Controls is the Red-headed stepchild of the PLC world. I'ld like to talk to someone who is on the other side, and I figured someone here could help. I'm curious to learn Siemens initially, but not opposed to talking to any AB techs out there. There is some capacity in my area to work with AB+Siemens controls and I have even thought it might be a good field to advance into int he future. I would just like to have a conversation with someone and maybe get some beginner pointers to books/websites/tutorials etc.
 
http://thelearningpit.com/

Is one of the best way to start learning ladder logix.

I'm in the midst of setting up my AB SLC 5/03 for my brewery. I also work with AB Control Logix systems on my day to day basis at work. So what direction do you want to go? Honestly unless you have access to AB or Siemens products its not a good financial route. Automation direct has the most financial savvy products.

You can use ebay and find SLC500 stuff pretty cheap due to recontrol projects. Its the legal software that will kill you. They are very serious about their licenses.
 
I salute the efforts at PLC control but also am aware of the limitations of the software packages, great for process control, not sure if they can be expanded to include all the other things you would want to do. Having built a automated system around Opto 22 G1 hardware, and written the control applications to make it do what I wanted, know that it was not quick or easy. Basic process loop and timing should be easy, it can be done on something as simple as an Arduino platform, it is the rest of the things that would take time.
 
I have been mostly working with Omron PLCs but do have some experience with the Siemens PLCs. I would concentrate learning latter logic first as well as master simple circuit design.
With your background you should be able to pick up the basics pretty easy. You should also learn a little C or Basic so you you can get used to function blocks written in code. Unfortunately each manufacture will use its own proprietary language but at least you can get a feel for the flow. Automation Direct has some products that can help you self-teach for <$1000 for software + plc. The more advanced PLCs like my Omron test unit requires a much heftier investment. I have little over than $10K invested in my little test stand if you include the software; thankfully this didn't come out of my pocket.
Gook luck.
 
I also work with PLC controls and must agree that the hardware will more than cover any I/O that might be desired for a brewery build, the software costs are a bit on the steep side. I have the luxury of having a copy of the programming software provided by the company I work for in all the AB platforms as well as some Modicon and Siemens platforms, but if I had to provide all of this myself, I would be very strapped to pay for it all. Programming and loading the platform is all the software is needed for, or for programming changes, but if you build your HMI to handle the bulk of your changes ie provide links to your PID settings, timers, etc, then you would not need to have the programming software of your own. They can be extremely flexible platforms if you have the right gear.
 
I guess it would depend on what you are trying to achieve and how much time and money you want to spend reaching that goal. I had to write an application to do everything because the hardware was limited to just IO functions. If you dig into the PLC hardware information you should be able to find the communication protocols and then you can develop an application to format commands and decode responses like I have for the Opto 22 hardware. This is not an overnight build if you build in run time access to the control variables and then roll in the recipe generation and control setpoint calculation integration.
 
Allen Bradley does have a wide range of offerings. The SLC and Micrologix work can be compact and fairly easy to use. ControlLogix is their industrial automation product right now, it's extremely powerful, many options to write the logic for it, but it is of course very pricey.
 
Your best bet is to avoid some of the big name PLC manufacturers (Allen-Bradley, Siemens, GE, etc.) They are going to be expensive and are not intended (or priced) for the consumer market. I would look for something that is targeted more toward OEM machine builders.

I've seen some solutions that include PLC, I/O, and HMI in an all-in-one type package.

Here's one I can across in an industry magazine.
http://www.unitronics.com/Content.aspx?page=All_In_One
I haven't had a chance to look into what they offer in much detail, but I believe the software is free and the units are expandable for additional I/O (like analog, RTD, thermocouple, etc.)
 
I appreciate all the input! To clarify, I may have a lead on some Siemens equipment (as an employee of the Corporation) that I can play with. And part of my desire is to see if this could be an avenue to a 2nd career. But it sounds like it's pretty Expensive just to play with. I don't think I'll actually build a homebrew rig with the equipment, but at the same time... it's hard to learn something w/o a task to achieve. Alot like when I was learning AutoCad. If there wasn't a defined task, ie. Draw *this*, then it wasn't fun just going thru the menus. The same was true with Excel. When I was an intern in college I had a job that required me to get pretty in depth with Excel, and I learned alot. I even looked at VB for a while to automate some Reports. I know some C++ (well I used to) and I can code Basic Style programming pretty well. I can pick up program languages pretty easy too. I've been really busy and I hope to continue down this line of conversation some more. Happy Brewing!
 
Well maybe you have an opportunity, being that you work for a manufacturer of PLC equipment, I am thinking Siemens must offer training classes for customers and end users, maybe you can get in on some of those for free and maybe even get paid for your time in class?
 
Talk with your company, and let them know you have a strong desire in learning more about the Siemens units. They maybe willing to send you to seminars/courses, to better your career . My company lets me attend classes once/twice a year at Rockwell Automation here in Milwaukee. Let me look around, I have a boat load of Demo software somewhere you can have to play with if you want.
 
I am very interested in incorporating a PLC to create a fully automated home brewery. I have been looking at the Unitronics V570, but they are pretty expensive. I have been playing around with the free software, but not getting anywhere fast. I need a hands on course.
 
Hm never heard of that one, you might like something Allen Bradley Micrologix, they're only about $150 and includes some I/O built in. Some programming software uses ladder logic; others use C or a version of Basic or what A/B calls structured text, some can combine all those methods.
 
Unitronics is what Sabco uses on the Brew Magic. It is an integrated Plc and HMI. Sabco could used it to control the burners instead of getting a silly message to turn them on. I like the Unitronics over Allen Bradely because the software is free. The only thing I don't like is that they don't have a simulator to test the programming.
 
Trillium said:
I like the Unitronics over Allen Bradely because the software is free. The only thing I don't like is that they don't have a simulator to test the programming.
Click to expand...

I agree. Allen Bradley software is very expensive and not reasonable for the consumer market. I have to imagine most people that use it for personal use have access to it through their job.

Plus, you would need some type of HMI. If you take the AB route that's even more money and software.
 
None of the big brands will be reasonable for the consumer market. I'm an S7/505 tech and I looked long and hard at incorporating them into a build but decided that even with free (to me, employer paid for) software it didn't make sense.
 
Yeah, I've got Building Management Controls that would be more than enough to get the job done for a home brewery. But if I ever parted ways... I'ld lose the software after 1 year. And it's pretty useless without the interface. I haven't been able to dig into this much more. But I'm keeping the links and will be starting some research.
 
The software for a home brewing system automation is the hard part, factory software will get you part of the way there. For most hardware there is a communication protocol that they use, and usually an interface to Ethernet can be found, it is just a matter of creating an application that can deliver the proper commands and decode the responses. Most hardware communication setups use a variation of RS 422 / 485 to get network distances needed, and serial / Ethernet interfaces are available. A Java IDE is usually free to download and develop with, just takes a bit of time to build what is needed. Having done that with the Opto 22 G1 hardware I use, it is not rocket science if I could learn Java and build the needed code ( lot's of trips to the internet to work out code problems). You just have to work at this a bit, break it down to hardware interface, commands configuration /response data decode, and sequence of control steps needed and not get bogged down with the big picture at first.
The brewing hardware design I use is scaled from various industrial process's and is way more complex than needed for just making beer with 3 vessel single infusion designs. The software used is way too much for just a simple system, so development time should not be anywhere near the time I have invested (2,500+ hours writing and testing).
 
I know we've diverged from the original post. But I've also been looking into Phidget USB-based I/O (http://www.phidgets.com/). It has native support for several languages, e.g. C/C++, C#, java, python, labview, matlab, iOS, android, flash action script, etc. (http://www.phidgets.com/docs/Programming_Resources#Operating_System_Support) It's supported on all major platforms: widows, OS X, Linux. And it's supports mobile platforms like iOS- and android-based smart phones and tablets.

You can also use the Phidget I/O with some third party software. One of them that looks cool is Soapbox Snap. It is an open source PLC ladder editor. (http://soapboxautomation.com/products/soapbox-snap/)

So all you need is a spare PC and who doesn't have a spare one laying around the house these days.

Phidget seems like a great alternative to some of the options out there.
 
I agree with Bob to a point. Going with one of the major players PLCs isn't practical from a cost perspective unless you work in controls or for one of these companies. Going with a PLC in general is, to me, a better idea than a microcontroller if you can do it in a cost effective way. Almost all PLC vendors, big and small, use IEC 61131 languages. This includes languages as basic as ladder all the way to advanced programming with structured text (similar to pascal). You're not forced to learn a language like C but still have the power of a programming language if you want it. I've programmed everything from complex communication systems that spanned large geographic locations to an algorithm to track the sun (NREL solar radiation algorithm) w/ ST. Once you know any of these IEC languages you can use whatever PLC you want and it will be about the same for any vendor using IEC languages. It's almost all standard. The only learning curve is the programming interface and addressing. As far as capabilities go, you can't beat it. You can have, for example, one controller controlling 100 PIDs and display/control it all from your iPad via an integrated web server on the PLC. Most vendors standard libraries contain a drag and drop auto tuning PID so this would take you like 10 minutes to do. If you're a controls guy you will quickly understand that using a PLC to control a simple process like brewing is complete overkill. But also complete awesome.
 
BitSlinger84 said:
I agree with Bob to a point. Going with one of the major players PLCs isn't practical from a cost perspective unless you work in controls or for one of these companies. Going with a PLC in general is, to me, a better idea than a microcontroller if you can do it in a cost effective way. Almost all PLC vendors, big and small, use IEC 61131 languages. This includes languages as basic as ladder all the way to advanced programming with structured text (similar to pascal). You're not forced to learn a language like C but still have the power of a programming language if you want it. I've programmed everything from complex communication systems that spanned large geographic locations to an algorithm to track the sun (NREL solar radiation algorithm) w/ ST. Once you know any of these IEC languages you can use whatever PLC you want and it will be about the same for any vendor using IEC languages. It's almost all standard. The only learning curve is the programming interface and addressing. As far as capabilities go, you can't beat it. You can have, for example, one controller controlling 100 PIDs and display/control it all from your iPad via an integrated web server on the PLC. Most vendors standard libraries contain a drag and drop auto tuning PID so this would take you like 10 minutes to do. If you're a controls guy you will quickly understand that using a PLC to control a simple process like brewing is complete overkill. But also complete awesome.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said which is why I chased it for so long. The kind of process control, automation, reporting, etc. of PLCs is unmatched. The problem is cost. I even tried to pull together Micro 84 parts. It is cost prohibitive for all but the most ... dedicated to the idea.

But yea. I have visions of an S7-1200 controlling the whole thing and emailing me reports.
 
I'd suggests taking a look at AutomationDirect.com Their click line of plcs is ideal for this type of project, and they are very inexpensive. The software is free. I've used several on pieces of equipment I've done professionally, and they are excellent for the price. For under 500$ you should be able to get a control module,some io modules, a touch screen interface, and a small box to put it in.
They also have lots of items to build the electrical panel. Between them, mcmaster, and misumi you can pretty build complete machines.
 

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