How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

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A decent experiment might be to just steep a cup of water with hops for an hour. One cup at 200, one at 190, etc.

Fermentation may change the character, but this method could allow a cursory glance at the relationship between flavor and temperature.

I like this idea! I think to better represent the wort composition, it might be worth trying to acidify the water or add some acid malt to the water.

TD
 
yea, pH would make a difference. I think it would be best to understand that it's not going to be an ideal representation, but it could bring to light some effects that temperature has. I might do it this weekend for the hell of it
 
TheHairyHop said:
yea, pH would make a difference. I think it would be best to understand that it's not going to be an ideal representation, but it could bring to light some effects that temperature has. I might do it this weekend for the hell of it

I like the sound of that! Be sure and let us know your results!
I'm planning an all Citra IPA soon. I'm still trying to decide what to do as far as hop stand temps times and additions. I am tinkering with the idea of continually hopping like DFH, but during the post boil period. Maybe hitting it with the immersion chiller to cool it down to 180 and then drop a 1/4 oz pellets every 5 minutes for an hour. I'm not exactly sure. I like to use hop sacks, so this might pose some problems with excessive trub.. I have the hopBlocker, and would also intend to run the wort through the hopRocket filled with Citra Hops, then run off through the therminator chiller. Not entirely sure about running the immersion chiller during the hop stand to obtain a steady temp drop so that after an hour of hop stand it'll be down to about 100 degrees. I might consider trying to speed it up so I dump 3 oz over a half hour starting at 180 degrees and finishing at 100

TD
 
yea, pH would make a difference. I think it would be best to understand that it's not going to be an ideal representation, but it could bring to light some effects that temperature has. I might do it this weekend for the hell of it

Or just quickly mix up some extract and water - kind of a pseudo wort. Break that down into some smaller sizes for the different temps for the experiment
 
A decent experiment might be to just steep a cup of water with hops for an hour. One cup at 200, one at 190, etc.

Fermentation may change the character, but this method could allow a cursory glance at the relationship between flavor and temperature.

I thought about doing this too. I think one of the unforeseen challenges might be maintaining a consistent temp with just a cup of water for the intended length of time. Not that it's a challenge that cannot be overcome....I think coffee cups and saran wrap might be the ticket. Better yet, a couple thermoses.

You might also consider comparing different lengths of time from 30 minute steeps up to 80 minutes as it's been indicated that lower temperatures require longer steeps for optimum extraction.

So, if we're late-kettle-hopping at a rate of 1 oz. per gallon in an IPA, that's 28 grams per 128 oz = 1.75 grams of hops in a cup (8 oz.) of water or wort.

So round it off and try 2 grams of hops (which becomes closer to the equivalent of 6 oz. of hops in a 5-gallon batch) in each cup of water?

Then there's the issue of tasting wort, which is far from the flavor of finished beer, or just using water, which might be optimal to keep it simple. There's also the potential impact of confusing the palate: liquids that haven't had a bittering charge could potentially have a negative impact on how we perceive the flavor of the hops steeped at the lower temperatures (which won't be as bitter as higher temp steeps).

With all the effort that's going to take, it almost seems like it would be worth it to just experiment with several split batches, testing one thing at a time with different beers and different hops.

I'd be most interested in testing 180F for 30 minutes v. 145F for 80 minutes as a starting point, but it sounds like bobbrews has some good experiential knowledge of some of these factors.
 
The only issue with wort is that it will be very sweet

True - I didn't think that through far enough----unless you want to add a sprinkle of dry yeast to each of the cups and ferment in them and then compare the finish product :D:eek::eek: (kidding obviously)
 
Well you could use bud light instead of water. There is very little flavor going on there to begin with.

Use it in place of water or sweet wort. When heated the alcohol and co2 will be driven off. There is no live yeast of course.
Do your hop stands. Allow to cool and transfer back into bottle, but add an appropriate amount of corn sugar to each bottle plus a pinch of dry yeast to them. Cap them.
You'd need to be sanitary in treatment of the bottles and also of the equipment you're doing the hop stand with.
I've read somewhere that some folks do this to evaluate the effect of dry hopping simple cracking the tops off and adding an appropriate amount of hop pellets and then sealing the bottle. I don't know if they had problems capping the twist top bottles or not. The let them rest a week or two not sure and then tasted.

TD
 
Well you could use bud light instead of water. There is very little flavor going on there to begin with.

Use it in place of water or sweet wort. When heated the alcohol and co2 will be driven off. There is no live yeast of course.
Do your hop stands. Allow to cool and transfer back into bottle, but add an appropriate amount of corn sugar to each bottle plus a pinch of dry yeast to them. Cap them.
You'd need to be sanitary in treatment of the bottles and also of the equipment you're doing the hop stand with.
I've read somewhere that some folks do this to evaluate the effect of dry hopping simple cracking the tops off and adding an appropriate amount of hop pellets and then sealing the bottle. I don't know if they had problems capping the twist top bottles or not. The let them rest a week or two not sure and then tasted.

TD

Lol I kind of like that idea. I have some DME on hand, so making mini beers is possible. Especially if I just use a little dried yeast and ferment in the bottle. I'll have to keep thinking of ideas. I want to keep everything as controlled as possible, so that's why a cup of water came to mind
 
Holy crap that's a lot of hop!! I just bottled a galaxy pale ale. I did a 45 minute hop stand at 140-145 with 20 g of galaxy hops (3.5 gallon batch). The flavor and aroma is through the roof!! Best yet. It's like citrus candy. I'll report back when it's carbed up, but so far so good. Thanks everyone.
 
I did a 20 minute steep at 117*F with 2oz of Willamette and 2oz. of Wakatu. The aroma was decent, but not huge prior to pitching. During fermentation, big lime smells were escaping from the airlock from the Wakatu. My whole basement smelled like a lime.

Unfortunately, not much aroma survived the fermentation and I had to dry hop. :mad:

It was the first time using those hops for aroma and they are considerably milder than Amarillo, Centennial, etc. I probably should have steeped them longer than 20 minutes. Oh well. Try again.
 
I wonder if you heat the fermented beer to 150*F and did a 24 hour steep if it would be different than dry hop flavor.
 
grathan said:
I wonder if you heat the fermented beer to 150*F and did a 24 hour steep if it would be different than dry hop flavor.

It would be better to add a hop tea to your beer.
 
Holy crap that's a lot of hop!! I just bottled a galaxy pale ale. I did a 45 minute hop stand at 140-145 with 20 g of galaxy hops (3.5 gallon batch). The flavor and aroma is through the roof!! Best yet. It's like citrus candy. I'll report back when it's carbed up, but so far so good. Thanks everyone.

Did you leave the lid on the pot while steeping? Not sure if it even matters but some people say to leave it on.

Also, you used 20 grams of hops ( which is about .7 ounces). Did you use any hops at flame-out, or just during the steep?

TIA
 
Did you leave the lid on the pot while steeping? Not sure if it even matters but some people say to leave it on.

Also, you used 20 grams of hops ( which is about .7 ounces). Did you use any hops at flame-out, or just during the steep?

TIA

That's for a 3.5 gallon batch. I think it would be just over an oz in a 5.5 gallon brew. No flame out, just hop stand. I also did 20 grams at 15 min and 8 min. I covered the pot once I got below 145 and put it back on the stove. The guys here seem to think its safe to do so at low temps. One warning though, I dipped below 140 and turned the burner on too high and the cold break bubbled back up. I think if I just kept it on the lowest setting I would have been fine. No issues with clarity when I bottled though.
 
That's for a 3.5 gallon batch. I think it would be just over an oz in a 5.5 gallon brew. No flame out, just hop stand.

Could you explain what you mean by a hop stand as opposed to flame out? My understanding, to quote BYO, is "A hop stand is simply allowing the boiled wort an extended contact period with the flameout hops prior to chilling the wort."
 
Could you explain what you mean by a hop stand as opposed to flame out? My understanding, to quote BYO, is "A hop stand is simply allowing the boiled wort an extended contact period with the flameout hops prior to chilling the wort."

Normally I would do a flameout as soon as I shut the heat off and let it sit at that high temp for however long. This time I cooled the wort to 145 then added the hops and let it stand for 45 minutes.
 
Nice article, and thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Tried this method last night for the first time with a Mosaic IPA. By a happy accident I cooled my wort a little more than expected post-boil and ended up steeping my "0 minute" additions at 145° for 80 minutes. I had plenty of bitterness from my FWH, so I was only looking for flavor and aroma in the hop stand, so it all worked out! The gravity sample was miles beyond any hop flavor I've tasted so far in one of my beers. Can't wait to taste this. Here's my hop schedule in case anyone is interested.

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
2.00 ozs 48.73 Nugget First Wort 12.30
1.00 ozs 17.99 Simcoe 30 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Mosaic 0 mins 11.60
1.00 ozs 0.00 Simcoe 0 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 0.00 Nugget 0 mins 12.30
2.00 ozs (dry) Mosaic 4 days 11.60
1.00 ozs (dry) Simcoe 4 days 13.00

This beer turned out fantastic! I'll be incorporating these 145° hop stands into a lot more beers in the future. Thanks again for all the info.
 
wobdee said:
I brewed 2 different 2.5 gal batches last week and both were FO only hop stands of 30 minutes.

One batch was a 1.060 Red Ale with 3oz Centennial thrown in at 190 degrees, stirred/whirpool every 5 min then cooled down to yeast pitching temps in 15 min. Temp dropped down to 175 after 30 min but I kept the lid on hoping to keep flavors in.

The other was a 1.058 Pale Ale with A 190 FO addition of 2oz Citra for 30 min. I also plan on dry hopping this brew with another oz.

I'm quite curious to see how these turn out, especially if they have enough bitterness, will ley you know in a few weeks.

Just tapped the Red and have to say I'm pretty impressed. The beer turned out well balanced with a great hop aroma.

I really didn't think the aroma would be there this strong without dry hopping but it is.

Hop flavor is also great but well balanced with a little darker malts.

Bitterness is just about right for me, no lasting sting on the back of the tongue, just a smooth bitterness that blends well with the flavor. If I had to guess IBU's I'd say somewhere between 30-40 IBU.
 
Very interesting thread, thanks to all who have shared their experiences.

What sort of cold breaks have people being experiencing with these techniques? It seems many are letting the temperature drop gradually during the hop stand. Has anyone seen any noticeable or comparable affect on clarity?

Assuming the cold break will start occurring at about 60C (or 140F, whether that's a safe assumption or not, I'm not too sure) then provided you chill quickly past this point then the cold break should come as it usually would? Or not?
 
skunk27, I believe that there would be no difference, if you chill quickly or no chill.

I am a no chiller. I did a hop stand, but I also consider it the same as a whirlpool, time wise, whether the wort is swirling or not.

Cold break settles at some point. I siphon off the clear wort out of my cubes to ferment.
 
This is a great thread. Just wondering if anyone has been using this method without dryhopping and what the results are compared to late boil additions (15, 10, 5, 0 minute). I mostly brew APAs but I don't often dry hop. Seems to me that massively dryhopping along with a hop stand would make it tough to determine how effective the method is at adding flavor/aroma.
 
This is a great thread. Just wondering if anyone has been using this method without dryhopping and what the results are compared to late boil additions (15, 10, 5, 0 minute). I mostly brew APAs but I don't often dry hop. Seems to me that massively dryhopping along with a hop stand would make it tough to determine how effective the method is at adding flavor/aroma.


Don't know if your referencing particular posts, but dry-hopping and flame-out additions will never taste exactly the same.

-You would have to take into consideration that delicate hop oils boil off at temperatures well below flame-out temps. And that not all hops contains similar amounts of the various essential oils, Myrcene in particular.

-You would have to consider that fermentation activity drives off
the delicate hydrophobic oils and that adding them to the boil would expose them to this fermentation activity when compared to dry hopping late in the fermentation cycle.

-In addition to fermentation activity driving off hop oils, they will also bind to proteins and yeast cell walls and settle out in the ferementer. This can be overcome by adding more hops though, but something to consider when making comparisons to dry hopping.
 
markg388 said:
Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.

GREAT info complete with a real life example. Perfect! I'm sold!
 
This is a great thread. Just wondering if anyone has been using this method without dryhopping and what the results are compared to late boil additions (15, 10, 5, 0 minute). I mostly brew APAs but I don't often dry hop. Seems to me that massively dryhopping along with a hop stand would make it tough to determine how effective the method is at adding flavor/aroma.
Dry hopping vs late kettle hopping for me have always resulted in different tastes. The two aren't interchangeable and I think you'll find that anyone doing a lot of late kettle additions is likely dry hopping as well as the flavour/aroma differences compliment each other.

Kal
 
Some great information here. I've been trying to understand the implications of flame out hop additions at different temps.

I can attest to the late hop additions being phenomenal for hop flavor/aroma.

My problem is that to get the IBUs I need from flame out hop additions, I have to add a ton of hops and I get some really crazy haze.

I'm talking an insane amount of haze. Hold it up to the light and it blocks out the sun.

I've cold crashed and tried to fine with gelatin. The gelatin helps *a little* but the beer is not clear. I have made IPAs where I get my IBUs from 60/30/20/5 and I can get them pretty clear.

How do others handle clarity with crazy late hop additions?

Some other details about my process. Post boil, I add 2-3 oz for 20 minutes right after flame out, then chill down to 180, another 2 oz for 20 minutes, then chill to pitch temps. My second chill is pretty quick, about 15 minutes with a whirlpool and an immersion chiller running to get from 180 to 65.
 
If the big guys don't worry about it, why should we :)

I honestly don't know how they keep them so cloudy. Mine usually clear pretty well after a few weeks in the keg. And I've never done any filtering or clarifying step except cold crashing a few times.

tumblr_m1b7m1vGy61r7ekmw.jpg


tree-house-brewing-company-julius.jpg
 
I just embrace the haze. Added 1/4lb of wheat flour to my last DIPA along with a lot fo flaked wheat for an appearance and smell of OJ but with +20oz of hops. 3 weeks in the keg and its still entirely opaque
 
yea, I don't understand the desire for clear beer. I drink beer for the taste, smell and alcohol. not for what it looks like

And for me, awesome beers and haze go hand in hand since the best beers I have ever had are all hazy. I think I might even prefer hazy looking beers for that reason. Clearly you don't need to clear a beer to make it awesome!
 
I think the visual appearance factors into the overall experience. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
 
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