Belgian Golden Strong Ale

I had a 'Golden Ale' from Dick's brewing. It was something like 4.5 % ABV. So not actually a Strong Golden Ale. Like the flavor and got me curious. So now want to brew a Belgian Strong Golden Ale. I haven't brewed anything over about 6% ABV. So all I've done is pitch dry yeast.
This will be 2nd all-grain. Did Witbier last and it's still in 1st week of bottle conditioning. Mash temp was higher than wanted so thinking that's what affected FG/attenuation. So calibrating thermometer before brew it!!!!
Mashing in a Zappap. Loved it. Batch sparged, etc.
Anyway, on with it. I want to do a starter for this one for sure since OG I'll be getting will be 1.080 - 1.081. But I was searching for more information and saw somewhere about the thought being that wanted a particular character from the yeast the fermentation temp. should be high. But (wherever I saw it) said that Belgians usually start low in temps. for fermenting and then raise temperature after 3 - 4 days. Does anyone agree with this???
Also saw somewhere about underpitching, for instance 1.8 L instead of 2 L starter. I guess also contributes to the character. I would think with OG this high, you'd want as much yeast as possible?!?!?!
Then I'm going to try this Venturi tube thing I saw on here. Seems excellent to aerate wort before pitching. But what were results??? Everyting fine, not overoxygenated???

12 lb. Belgian Pilsner
0.25 lb. Belgian Caramel Pils (CaraPils ???)
0.25 lb. Biscuit malt
1 oz. Saaz (60 min.)
1 oz. Saaz (15 min.)
Going to try Servomyces (15 min.)
Wyeast Belgian Strong Ale strain (# ??)


When I last did all-grain in Zappap I got 72 % batch sparging. So assuming the 72%.
1 way was to do a protein rest, then beta rest and then the alpha rest. But another suggestion was a single saccharification rest at 154 degrees F or something. (Seems high.) Seems I would need higher fermentability so lower mash temp.???
Like I said, I can't direct heat my mash tun. Or other thought is decoction to get to those temps. for the steps.

Any thoughts or ideas? Should this thread really be in recipes/Ingredients?? Help me affirm or adjust ideas/thoughts I have.

Stu

I would mash low...147 for 75-90 minutes. I would get rid of the specialty malt and go with only Pilsner malt. It is important to this beer to finish dry enough so I would use at least 2lbs of plain table sugar in the kettle as well. I wouldn't worry about over oxygenating. I start my BGSA at 66-68 degrees for two days and ramp up the temperature 2 degrees per day until I hit 80 degrees.

Phunhog said:

I would mash low...147 for 75-90 minutes. I would get rid of the specialty malt and go with only Pilsner malt. It is important to this beer to finish dry enough so I would use at least 2lbs of plain table sugar in the kettle as well. I wouldn't worry about over oxygenating. I start my BGSA at 66-68 degrees for two days and ramp up the temperature 2 degrees per day until I hit 80 degrees.

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Pretty much my suggestions, as well. Make sure you sub the 2# sugar for 2# malt or your OG will go even higher. It's almost impossible to over oxygenate w/o using pure O2 and def pitch cool then let rise.

Phunhog said:

I would mash low...147 for 75-90 minutes. I would get rid of the specialty malt and go with only Pilsner malt. It is important to this beer to finish dry enough so I would use at least 2lbs of plain table sugar in the kettle as well. I wouldn't worry about over oxygenating. I start my BGSA at 66-68 degrees for two days and ramp up the temperature 2 degrees per day until I hit 80 degrees.

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I agree with this as well. Up to 20% sugar will help dry the beer out and make it more "digestible" as the Belgians would say. Just be sure to not let the temp get too hot too fast. I usually pitch even a little lower and then slowly raise the temp. The first couple of days the temp can rise very fast if you are not careful. I had one get away from me and the temp rose too quickly and it produced some fusels.

Be sure to give it plenty of time to finish up. Belgian yeasts can slow down after the initial fermentation and take a long time to get the final few points down. Here is a great quote from Brew Like a Monk.....

"Let the fermentation finish, perhaps at a higher temperature. It can take as long to get the last few points of attenuation as it does for the first 80%."

After it is bottled be sure to let it age. I know you will want to drink it soon. It will taste pretty good after it is carbed up but will continue to improve with age. I have some that have been in bottles for over a year and they continue to change, and change for the better. So set some aside and forget about them for a long while.

Well, went to bed last night realizing I forgot to include the 2 lb. of table sugar in the recipe.
Everything I've seen is to add the table sugar the last 10 minutes of boil. What about a little bit more sugar saaaay 4 - 5 days after into fermentation?? Because right now, according to my BeerTools, FG would only be 1.019. According to style, I'm still a few point high. Anyway, not too worried about going to style, just want to brew it. I imagine it would work both ways right?? 2 lb. into fermenter after 4 - 5 days or into kettle for last 15 minutes??

Thanks guys.

Also, I had planned 21 days sitting in primary (or actually if it's still dropping in gravity, I'll let it dictate). Then sit a while in keg I have for 21 days (though have no Co2 tank or regulator).

If you're using plain white table sugar, be sure to invert it first. It will be more fermentable than regular white sugar and if you cook it with enough care you can impart some nice caramel flavors into your ale.

TastySalmon said:

If you're using plain white table sugar, be sure to invert it first. It will be more fermentable than regular white sugar and if you cook it with enough care you can impart some nice caramel flavors into your ale.

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Which is a great idea but....caramel flavors aren't really what you want in a Belgian Golden Strong Ale.

Table sugar inverts when you throw it into boiling, acidic wort.
Throwing it in earlier (say with your 60 min hops charge) can get you some carmelization, but like Phundog says, a golden strong should be golden.

Do we do the same with Belgian candy sugar or can I add that later, adding it to the secondary instead?

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this BB. Too many experts on here who think they know it all.

For those who are interested:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar.html

TastySalmon said:

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this BB. Too many experts on here who think they know it all.

For those who are interested:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar.html

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What about that has been refuted in this thread?

Looks like he's just trying to hype his blog.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Looks like he's just trying to hype his blog.

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Yeah, that was odd.

Sorry, but that's not my blog, experts.

I added 3 lbs of cane sugar to a BGS to the fermenter. OG 1.072. It finished at 1.007. Over 90% attenuation.

How does inverting sugar make it more fermentable?
Aren't sucrose (cane sugar) and glucose (dextrose, corn sugar) 100% fermentable.

TastySalmon said:

Sorry, but that's not my blog, experts.

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I am not an expert but I do know enough that if I am trying to make a BGSA I don't want any sort of caramel notes. In fact I would want the sugar to ferment out completely.

phunhog said:

i am not an expert but i do know enough that if i am trying to make a bgsa i don't want any sort of caramel notes. In fact i would want the sugar to ferment out completely.

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+ 1

TastySalmon said:

Now I remember why I stopped posting on this BB. Too many experts on here who think they know it all.

For those who are interested:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar.html

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Feel free to stop posting again. Just because you disagree with another poster is no reason to cop an attitude. Log out and walk away.

Wolfman has it right. Table sugar will invert in wort anyhow. No need to make it.

Thanks everybody. Great. Though didn't expect so many issues about sugar!?!?!? Listened to a podcast of a Jamil show from the BN about Belgian Golden Strong Ale. Mashing at 149 degrees, boil 90 minutes. Consisted of 11 lb. Pils, 3 lb. sugar. Ramping up fermentation temps. from 65 - 82 or something around 10 days.

Though I think I'll just try the 147 suggested earlier on Page 1 of this thread and try it for 70 - 80 minutes mashing. Take out Biscuit and CaraPils. Maybe I'll shoot for 1.078 - 1.079 instead of the 1.082. I'm liking it so far.

What about bottling?? Jamil said something like 4 volumes of CO2. No ordinary bottles, 750 mL bottles work better. Jeebus!!!! What about 2.75 - 3 volumes instead!

You are right that bottling a BGSA can be an issue. If you were to try to carb to 4 volumes you would have bottle bombs. I think you are on the right track...shoot for 3 volumes.

Phunhog said:

shoot for 3 volumes.

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This. I did 3vol for my Saison. No bombs, great carb & head!

When You bottle I suggest you add some more yeast like some s05. It will condition much better.

I didn't know nuttin' bout no inversion when I made mine ('cause I'm no esspert). I just boiled the table sugar in plain water and added after primary fermentation was finished. It went crazy and finished at 1.004

Dok said:

When You bottle I suggest you add some more yeast like some s05. It will condition much better.

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I recently learned my lesson on that one.

Nice segue. Because that was going to be my next question. If I was going to let this sit in primary for 2-3 weeks, then possibly transfer to secondary for another 2-3 weeks before bottle conditioning would I need to add more yeast??? For conditioning. From what I've looked at on White Labs web site, the yeast I want to us is a low flocculating strain. I don't filter yeast. and this style is pretty clear. so thinking I want time to let things settle, etc.

If that's the case what are some resources (websites, publications, etc.) concerning how much yeast for bottle conditioning. It's got to be a smaller amount than what used for fermentation?!?!?!

Also, let me get this straight: Sugar in kettle for 15 minutes or so. Then towards end of fermentation, add more sugar that's inverted. sorry, I saw that and thought...."I do that when I add corn sugar to boiling water to bottle condition."

Anywho, thank all. Any other ideas or thoughts on this style. I'm thinking that it's all about drying this big guy out and pitching low and moving that fermenter from basement up the stairs to warmer part of house as fermentation progresses. Get that Belgian character with the yeast.

Another thing. 12 lb. Pilsner in a Zappap-style mash tun. I didn't think about this until this afternoon. water to grain ratio. Like 1 qt./lb. or 2 qt./lb. I did a Wit at 1.3qt./lb. or something. So with a big beer like this 1.080, does it matter? Or just do a water to grain ratio that fits. I'll do batch sparge, but have the ability to continuous sparge. In fact, I'll probably get it hooked up if not liking the batch sparging. Though batch sparging works and I like it. Just started seeing threads and searching on here about how it works or doesn't work above 1.060 or something.

StusBrew said:

Nice segue. Because that was going to be my next question. If I was going to let this sit in primary for 2-3 weeks, then possibly transfer to secondary for another 2-3 weeks before bottle conditioning would I need to add more yeast??? For conditioning. From what I've looked at on White Labs web site, the yeast I want to us is a low flocculating strain. I don't filter yeast. and this style is pretty clear. so thinking I want time to let things settle, etc.

If that's the case what are some resources (websites, publications, etc.) concerning how much yeast for bottle conditioning. It's got to be a smaller amount than what used for fermentation?!?!?!

Also, let me get this straight: Sugar in kettle for 15 minutes or so. Then towards end of fermentation, add more sugar that's inverted. sorry, I saw that and thought...."I do that when I add corn sugar to boiling water to bottle condition."

Anywho, thank all. Any other ideas or thoughts on this style. I'm thinking that it's all about drying this big guy out and pitching low and moving that fermenter from basement up the stairs to warmer part of house as fermentation progresses. Get that Belgian character with the yeast.

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I just bottled the Belgian Golden Strong ale from "brewing Classic Styles" by Palmer and Zainasheff. You can see the recipe on my thread about Belgian Golden Strong Ale. It's almost identical to your recent post. They call for 4 volumes co2. The book has a conversioN chart for priming sugar vs co2 on pg 198 although you can certainly google to find it. 4 volumes co2 = 6 oz corn sugar or 5.6 oz cane sugar.


For what it's worth, I did a 11 lbs pils, 3 lb liquid beet sugar, 90 min mash at 149, 90 min boil and used 3 pkgs of Wyeast 1388 as per recipe. It fermented very strong for about 10 days and was finished at 17 days at 1.002. Bottled yesterday at day 20 and it already tastes great.

They say to make sure to use a wyeast 1388, wlp570 or fermentis safbrew t-58 in order to get the pear notes that the classic beer of this style exhibits.

Good luck.

Thanks MikeMMM. So do people batch sparge large gravity beers. I was shooting for getting 5.5 gallons of 1.080 brew at end of boil. Seems like it should work. Guess won't know until I do it right?!!? I'll check out your link. Very curious about this style right now.

StusBrew said:

Thanks MikeMMM. So do people batch sparge large gravity beers. I was shooting for getting 5.5 gallons of 1.080 brew at end of boil. Seems like it should work. Guess won't know until I do it right?!!? I'll check out your link. Very curious about this style right now.

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Others can answer your question about batch sparging. I am new to all grain and can only tell you how i do it. I mash out with boiling water to quickly bring the mash up to 168 then fly sparge. If you want to fly sparge it's not hard and doesn't require additional equipment. I fly sparge with no additional equipment other than a pitcher to pour into my mash ton with and a piece of aluminum foil or anything else to keep the water from drilling down into the grain bed. I keep the flow from the mash ton slow and pour sparge water into the ton to keep an inch of water over the grains. I make sure to keep my sparge water heated to the appropriate temp based on any of the many mash temp calculators on the web.

So, it's been ??? since put this post. It's now July 22, 2013. Finally brewed it yesterday. 13 lb. Weyermann Pilsner, 3.5 lb. table sugar. 90 minute mash. 90 minute boil. Approximately 3 Liter starter of Wyeast Abbey Ale II instead of the Wyeast Belgian Strong Ale strain. Recipe from J.Z. was to use 3 packets or equivalent. I think I'm not quite there with the pitching size.
Took off. Going good. A little worried about temps. I can't control temps. just going with environmental conditions. Called for fermenting at 66 or 65 or something. Where I've got it is 69. We'll see.

anyone have any points to make about it? You think it'll be fine. It called for going from 66 or whatever the temp. was to ramping up to 80 something by end of fermentation. What do you think I'll get out of it? I'm going to bring it upstairs to warmer temps. near end of fermentation to help it get dry, etc. Added the sugar with 10 minutes left in boil. Hit OG of 1.072. So numbers were on for my system.

Ha! Since that's the case, I was going to say you should bulk age it for a couple months before bottling. I did a tripel last summer that I bulk aged for 4 months and bottle aged for 4 months. Turned out great, won me my first medal.

As long as the temp stays consistent at 69, you should be OK. In a few days try to start raising the temp, though. Probably at about day 4.

Well, day 2. Still going strong. Testing temps. around the "Ponderosa". Nothing higher than 69 right now (ugh... 69 is equivalent to like 666 or someting right. Just opposite. Whatever!)

What is wrong with me? It's like 10:45 p.m. right now and 73 degrees F right now. I've been opening windows and doors and getting fans going all night and getting to 67 degrees in mornings if lucky. And I'm considering not doing that to get temps. into 80s. Is there really anything wrong with me??

So...It's been exactly 2 weeks since brewed it. It was pretty vigorous fermentation for 2 days, maybe 3 days. I had blow off tubing on it in basement at 67 or 68 degrees F. At end of day 2 it looked a little slower. So took off blow off tubing, inserted airlock and hauled it upstairs to where it got to 74-ish at highest during rest of fermentation. After got it upstairs and about 40 minutes later I come into house and krausen is now coming out of airlock! thought I was done. Reinserted blow off tubing for another 3 days just to be sure. So day 6 activity had greatly declined!
I took gravity and a tasting on day 9 or 10 I think. It went from 1.072 to 1.004 -ish. It was past 1.004 but not to 1.006. Could be 1.005. Tasted AWESOME. Wow. Yeast not clearing up, so transferred to a secondary carboy and going to wait another week or so before bottling. Besides, moving also. so rather move one container than 2 or 3 boxes containing 50 containers.

When i add sugar to my bgsa's i boil up the sugar with literally 1 drop of fresh lemon juice..i dont know if it makes a difference but adding a touch of acid helps invert the sugar making it more fermentable i heard..it doesn't hurt so why not