Apple Dessert Wine Stuck

Hello all. A while back I got this wild idea that I wanted to make a very high gravity apple wine that would have a good bit of alcohol warmth and still maintain some residual sweetness like a dessert wine. I used 4 cans of frozen concentrate, 22 oz brown sugar, and topped up to a gallon with unfiltered, pasteurized apple cider for an OG of 1.160 I shook it all up good to aerate and dissolve the sugar and then added some red star premier cuvee, which I was told was good to about 18% abv. I thought that at 16-18% abv, the FG would come out to 1.025-1.035, which would be about right. It began fermenting vigorously and continued for a couple weeks, then stalled. 3 successive gravity readings of 1.060 a week apart confirm that it is actually stuck and not just slow.
I have tried several things to jump start it again: removing airlock and shaking to degas and allow the yeast access to air, cranking up the heat to about 75F, pitching more yeast, and adding yeast energizer. None of them have helped.
So, is it likely that the current 13% alcohol level is the limit of these particular yeast in these conditions? If not that, what should I try next?
Thanks.

What yeast did you use?

I add sugar half way through fermentation for my high alcohol wines. This ensures the yeast is not stressed.

Did you add yeast nutrient? It's possible the nutrients are not sufficient or used up.

You can try using KV1-1116, it is well known for working with high gravity stalls.

I am planning to start a wine similar to this using Martenelli's apple cider that has been sweetened with two frozen apple juice concentrates, and when SG has dropped by 1/3 feed one container concentrate, and when that SG has dropped by 1/3 feed one more container...and see what happens.

Keep us posted.

Thanks for the replies. The yeast I used was Red Star Premier Cuvee, and the yeast energizer I used contains DAP, yeast hulls, b vitamins, etc, so there should be enough nutrients. I will certainly use the adding sugars in increments method on the next one to help prevent stressing the yeast, but for this one it is a little too late for that, so I'll give the K1V-1116 a go. Do you think there will be any problems or funky flavors with using this much yeast in a 1 gallon batch?

ProfessorPlum said:

Thanks for the replies. The yeast I used was Red Star Premier Cuvee, and the yeast energizer I used contains DAP, yeast hulls, b vitamins, etc, so there should be enough nutrients. I will certainly use the adding sugars in increments method on the next one to help prevent stressing the yeast, but for this one it is a little too late for that, so I'll give the K1V-1116 a go. Do you think there will be any problems or funky flavors with using this much yeast in a 1 gallon batch?

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You can also try Lalvin EC-1118.

Also...you do not need to use the entire packet...you could weigh it, divide it and add as a starter.

Home distillers never push past 12% because of all the off flavors and they distill so there is probably less nasties. I think on paper your plan sounds good but won't turn out good. If you go to home distillers.org they have calculators so you can determine how much sugar to add to hit 12%. Ec 1116 is a good yeast but would not push it past 12%

rgarry said:

Home distillers never push past 12% because of all the off flavors and they distill so there is probably less nasties. I think on paper your plan sounds good but won't turn out good. If you go to home distillers.org they have calculators so you can determine how much sugar to add to hit 12%. Ec 1116 is a good yeast but would not push it past 12%

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To each their own. For all my yeasts, I'm between 12-13% with good results. I did a 18% blueberry port with EC-1118 that turned out great. Just don't add all the sugar at once.

rgarry said:

Home distillers never push past 12% because of all the off flavors and they distill so there is probably less nasties. I think on paper your plan sounds good but won't turn out good. If you go to home distillers.org they have calculators so you can determine how much sugar to add to hit 12%. Ec 1116 is a good yeast but would not push it past 12%

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Home distillation and home winemaking are two completely different skillsets, with quite different outcomes. No reason why the wine yeasts cannot be used to reach their thresholds...this is done every day, you just have to have a plan and patience.

At this point, the options are to either try to restart or perhaps make another batch, knowing what starting SG you will need, asduming you ferment dry, and blend with batch #1....or fortify with pure grain-151 and have a sweet, potent treat.

I went and used the whole pack of the K1-V, rehydrated per Lalvin's recommendation. It's now about 15 hours since I pitched and there is no sign of activity, but I'll wait a couple days and see what happens. If after another week the gravity reading is the same, I might start another batch and blend like saramc suggests. I'd prefer not to fortify. As far as whether it will be any good, it's merely an experiment and my first attempt at any such wine, so the real goal is to have fun and learn something. Having said that, the samples have far exceeded my expectations as far as flavor, so even at a high abv, it may well be quite tasty after 6 months or so. We'll see. Thanks for your suggestions and advice.

Try making sure your ferment is around 70F. Sounds like you have a plan. I bet it does taste nice and sweet right now.

rgarry said:

Ec 1116 is a good yeast but would not push it past 12%

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The 1116 is good for 16-18%

Goofynewfie said:

The 1116 is good for 16-18%

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I figured that if making spirits that pushing it pasted 12% gives off flavors that it would probably be worse with wine since you drink it all (spirits you distill and selectively just take the hearts). Maybe those flavors aren't nasties in wine. At the higher alcohol percentages, the yeast get stressed. I don't make wine but I bet there is someone who makes spirits and wine and can clear this up.

rgarry said:

I figured that if making spirits that pushing it pasted 12% gives off flavors that it would probably be worse with wine since you drink it all (spirits you distill and selectively just take the hearts). Maybe those flavors aren't nasties in wine. At the higher alcohol percentages, the yeast get stressed. I don't make wine but I bet there is someone who makes spirits and wine and can clear this up.

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Not at all. I can make an outstanding 18% wine, with wine yeast. I normally go with 13% or so, so it keeps well and doesn't take ages to age out, but it's easy to go to 18% or so without any off-flavors.

Distilling is illegal, and we don't talk about it on this forum, but that is a different beast entirely.

Yooper said:

Not at all. I can make an outstanding 18% wine, with wine yeast. I normally go with 13% or so, so it keeps well and doesn't take ages to age out, but it's easy to go to 18% or so without any off-flavors.

Distilling is illegal, and we don't talk about it on this forum, but that is a different beast entirely.

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It is indeed illegal but having the knowledge is not. I am one of those guys who reads everything. Guess I need to read about winemaking. Don't want to derail this anymore so I will go to the corner

Actually, where I live (good ol' Montana), distilling for personal use is not illegal. In fact, my local brew shop sells distilling equipment and supplies. There are many states where distilling is in fact quite legal, but most of the residents of those states, it seems, don't know that. Anyhow, back to my apfelwein. It's been a few days now since I added the K1V yeast, and although there has not been any airlock activity, the gravity has dropped by a couple points, so I will keep checking it over the next few weeks. So another question has come to mind since the last time. If it does attenuate down to a tolerable gravity, would it be advisable to rack to a secondary for long-term conditioning/aging? And since it will likely take forever to mellow, should I consider some sort of stabilizing? Sodium or potassium mbs, or pasteurization, or anything else?

ProfessorPlum said:

Actually, where I live (good ol' Montana), distilling for personal use is not illegal. In fact, my local brew shop sells distilling equipment and supplies. There are many states where distilling is in fact quite legal, but most of the residents of those states, it seems, don't know that. Anyhow, back to my apfelwein. It's been a few days now since I added the K1V yeast, and although there has not been any airlock activity, the gravity has dropped by a couple points, so I will keep checking it over the next few weeks. So another question has come to mind since the last time. If it does attenuate down to a tolerable gravity, would it be advisable to rack to a secondary for long-term conditioning/aging? And since it will likely take forever to mellow, should I consider some sort of stabilizing? Sodium or potassium mbs, or pasteurization, or anything else?

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Not aware of one state in the US where distillation of alcohol is legal without a license from ATF/TTB per a federal law. The LHBS sells the set ups on the premise that you may be distilling water, fuel, essential oil, etc....or be licensed. Some farms use distillation to produce fuel to operate equipment and may need a permit. Plus some states require that a seller notify the ATF/TTB when the sell a still that is even reportedly going to be used for things other than liquor/spirits. Varies from state to state, plus some sellers report it regardless. Just because equipment is available does not make it legal to produce liquor with it...without proper permit/license. I know some states are edging into Craft Distillation, a micro-distillery handling the taxes and such for the individual who wants to distill at the micro's premises. We have one opening 15 minutes from my home here in KY and I am quite interested to learn how their setup will work along with fees. Heck, I would even volunteer there!

Now to your wine...thrilled thst you have hydrometer action! I would make sure it is in a carboy with airlock for bulk aging. Rack every 30-60 days as long as it is dropping sediment. A ten degree temp drop once finished fermenting will help with clearing. The k-meta/campden only needs to added quarterly....a free SO2 test kit improves your SO2 dosing as it takes the guesswork out of it.
If you plan to backsweeten, I personally recommend dosing with sorbate plus k-meta and sweetener source once wine is clear and getting closer to bottling time, perhaps a month prior. This will give you time to monitor for refermentation and you may have to rack one final time prior to bottling because you may have a fine layer of sediment drop. I do not have experience with pasteurization to that extent.

1. The Yopper distilling police will come get you.


2. This is a wine forum.

3. You need a federal permit and pay taxes to legally distill spirits.

Well, my local laws are very loose about many things the federal government frowns upon, and state and federal laws are often in conflict, so it is illegal anywhere in the US to distill without a license according to federal laws, so I guess that'd be the bottom line no matter what state and local laws say. Anyhow, novalou is correct: this is a wine forum, so I digress.
I've kept the apfelwein at about 75F the past several weeks, but it will now be closer to 70F since I'm using the same temp control system for a batch of beer I'm working on. I'll continue to check the gravity, but would be very surprised if it dropped much lower and I may still consider making another batch and blending in order to get it to a palatable gravity without watering it down. There will be no backsweetening as this will be plenty sweet already, even if it does reach 18% abv. That was one of the criteria when I was planning this.
So again, thanks for the replies. As far as my mission when embarking on this experiment goes (learning and having some fun), mission accomplished.

Our forum rules specifically prohibit distillation talk (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_rules_regulations) please see rule 2.

This is what you agreed to when you signed up on our forum.

Calling me the "Yooper police" because I've asked people to obey our forum rules isn't going to win you any brownie points.

Anyway, due to the thread derailment and the inability to refrain from continuing the discussion this thread is closed.

And it is NOT legal in Montana, or anywhere in the US, to distill spirits without the proper licensing.