Hop utilization and maillard reactions with extended boil

Just wanted to do a sanity check on my thought process before committing. Also if this thread is better suited elsewhere feel free to move it.

I am planning on making a summer shandy in a few days. To be authentic I plan on mixing 50-50 with beer and lemonade. I've got the lemonade add process down from mead/wine experience. However, the part I'm lost on is the ABV and my "solve".

Due to the dilution from the lemonade I am sure the ABV will reduce when mixed with the beer. My "solve" is to boil longer down from a normal 5 gallon size to a 2.5 gallon batch to raise the ABV before dilution. That way when I add the lemonade I'll reduce my ABV back to where I want it.

Anyways here are the questions:

1. Should I add the hops at the start of the boil, then boil for the 60 minutes and remove them or should I "time" out the boil and add them in the last 60 minutes, right before I reach my 2.5 volume? If the former what would happen to bitterness, remain same, increase, or decrease? If the latter should I amp up the actual hops added to get the correct bitterness due to increased sugar concentration in the wort?

2. Due to the extended boil time what can I do to prevent maillard reactions and stay within SRM for the beer?

Thanks in advance!

PS - this is an experiment and so adding lemonade at pour isn't what I'm looking for. Also, even though it is an experiment I'd like to land as close to my control Leinie's Summer Shandy as possible.

You have to take into account, the lemonade probably has A LOT of simple sugars. If you just mix it in with the beer with the yeasties still active, you'll ferment out all that sugary lemonade. You would need to stop/strain/kill the yeast, then add the lemonade, then force carbonate. If you have this accounted for already, why not just make a stronger batch at 2.5 gallons, using standard boils/hop additions then add the lemonade.

But the main problem seems to be that lemonade. A couple of people on here have gotten around this and made something similar to a shandy by adding a bunch of lemon zest at the end of the boil.

The lemonade won't be an issue. Just have to add some potassium sorbate, that will arrest any fermentation regardless of simple sugars or yeasties. Sure the yeast will still be there, but they won't be able to do anything .

I am trying to make a stronger batch at 2.5 gallons, however I am an all-grain/BIAB brewer so I need the extra water to mash. Just enough to cover the grains and keep the malt off the bottom of the kettle. Then I just boil it down to the volume needed. However my questions are in reference to that boiling. Will I end up with a "darker" beer due maillard reactions for the extended boil? Should I put my hops in first and remove after 60 minutes, or wait it out and add them in the last 60 minutes before I hit my target volume? If I do the former will my hop utilization suffer in any way (less IBU, more IBU, no affect on IBU)? If I perform the latter will I need to take into account the higher sugar concentration in the wort and use more hops to get the IBUs I am looking for?

Thanks

caps_phisto said:

The lemonade won't be an issue. Just have to add some potassium sorbate, that will arrest any fermentation regardless of simple sugars or yeasties. Sure the yeast will still be there, but they won't be able to do anything .

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I'm a very experienced winemaker, and I don't have such a definite outlook on using the k-sorbate without worrying about it. Of course, once it's kegged, if you keep it cold fermentation can not restart anyway so it doesn't matter.

People who bottle beer can't do this, so I'm sure that's part of any confusion.

caps_phisto said:

I am trying to make a stronger batch at 2.5 gallons, however I am an all-grain/BIAB brewer so I need the extra water to mash. Just enough to cover the grains and keep the malt off the bottom of the kettle. Then I just boil it down to the volume needed. However my questions are in reference to that boiling. Will I end up with a "darker" beer due maillard reactions for the extended boil? Should I put my hops in first and remove after 60 minutes, or wait it out and add them in the last 60 minutes before I hit my target volume? If I do the former will my hop utilization suffer in any way (less IBU, more IBU, no affect on IBU)? If I perform the latter will I need to take into account the higher sugar concentration in the wort and use more hops to get the IBUs I am looking for?

Thanks

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Yes, an extended boil will create a darker beer. And you would add the hops at the last 60 minutes, as you can't put them in and take them out- the oils are where the bitterness comes from and the oils would already be in the wort.

If you want to make a high ABV beer, I'd suggest using more grain and forgetting about trying to reduce the volume that much. More grain, and a 60 minute boil, would be the way to go.

Yooper said:

I'm a very experienced winemaker, and I don't have such a definite outlook on using the k-sorbate without worrying about it. Of course, once it's kegged, if you keep it cold fermentation can not restart anyway so it doesn't matter.

People who bottle beer can't do this, so I'm sure that's part of any confusion.

Click to expand...

I am planning on kegging this one, but bottling some and putting in a cooler to go camping. If I kept them on ice for the whole two day trip you think that would be an issue? Temp in the cooler shouldn't kit fermentation temps for the yeast I plan on using Wyeast 3333.

Yooper said:

If you want to make a high ABV beer, I'd suggest using more grain and forgetting about trying to reduce the volume that much. More grain, and a 60 minute boil, would be the way to go.

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Wish I could, but I am a BIAB all-grain brewer which means limited space

As far as hop utilization is concerned with the higher sugar content of my wort towards the end of the boil, any recommendations on what I should skew my hop amount by or should the "standard" amount be alright. In this case anywhere from 0.25 to 0.5 ounces depending on Alpha Acid content.

caps_phisto said:

I am planning on kegging this one, but bottling some and putting in a cooler to go camping. If I kept them on ice for the whole two day trip you think that would be an issue? Temp in the cooler shouldn't kit fermentation temps for the yeast I plan on using Wyeast 3333.





Wish I could, but I am a BIAB all-grain brewer which means limited space

As far as hop utilization is concerned with the higher sugar content of my wort towards the end of the boil, any recommendations on what I should skew my hop amount by or should the "standard" amount be alright. In this case anywhere from 0.25 to 0.5 ounces depending on Alpha Acid content.

Click to expand...

I think if it's kept cold and NEVER gets above 50 degrees than it shouldn't start fermenting again.

I'd use the correct amount of hops no matter what the probable SG of the wort will be.