Best way to aerate wort just prior to pitching yeast

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ImperialStout

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I brew big beers, usually 18 to 23 pounds grain and 8 to 10% ABV using dry yeast only. Have been reading about aerating big beer wort to give the yeast enough oxygen but does this apply to dry yeast?


From the Danstar FAQ:
Quote:
I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?
No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either. During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation. The only reason to aerate the wort when using wet yeast is to provide the yeast with oxygen so that it can produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids which are important parts of the cell membrane and therefore essential for biomass production.

If the slurry from dry yeast fermentation is re-pitched from one batch of beer to another, the wort has to be aerated as with any liquid yeast.

Does the above apply to big beers or is it better to aerate? I typically hold drain tube from cooled wort in brew pot well above the wort level in the fermenting bucket. Is further aerating necessary for big beers? If so, how to aerate? An aquarium pump for a 5 gal tank and a small stone cost $10. Devises that use oxygen cylinders are faster and provide more oxygen but they cost $40 and more. If you aerate what do you use. Can a small fuel filter be used to trap impurities from the air?
 
Wyeast has an article on their site about oxygenation: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

Even though it might not be strictly *necessary* with dry yeast, it's a good habit to get into. From my reading of the article, it might be a good idea to let a little kettle trub get into the fermenter if you're not using pure O2.

Another interesting idea that New Belgium has tried is using olive oil in place of aeration:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-olive-oil-instead-oxygen-47872/
http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf

Edited to add: As far as how I do it, I got the kit from William's Brewing which puts the stone on the end of a metal tube. I figured that way, I could be sure the O2 bubbles would have maximum contact time with the wort before reaching the top. I'm thinking about getting another stone, though (just the stone) for aerating starters. I didn't think that was too necessary with a stir plate, but I'm not sure.
 
I typically hold drain tube from cooled wort in brew pot well above the wort level in the fermenting bucket.
--> You're probably getting plenty of aeration at that point
--> If you want more aeration, put a screened funnel into the carboy and empty your drain tube through it
--> If you want to take it further, get a Siphon Spray Wort Aerator for $4 from your fave LHBS (this is what I use)

I use an aquarium pump with an inline filter for my yeast starters.

Hard to tell if you're considering aerating your wort after pitching the yeast. I'd avoid this because at some point you are just oxidizing your brew.

I always make a starter and aerate the wort prior to pitching, regardless of whether or not I use dry or liquid yeast. I think it's a better practice.
 
From the research I have done and have been using.

.5 micron stone for pure oxygen. Smaller bubbles dissolve easier in your wort. You do not want the oxygen bubble to reach the top of your wort. You want them to dissipate within the wort before they reach the top.

I do 1 ppm for 1 minute per the Yeast book recommendation by Chris White. Not sure what the optimal setting would be for a 2 micron stone.

Oxygen Welding Tank -
http://www.harborfreight.com/20-cubic-ft-oxygen-cylinder-92810.html
Get an empty from Harbor Freight with 20% off coupon and exchange it at a gas supply place for a full one. Supposedly medical tanks and welding tanks are filled exactly the same way from the same source, one is just is "certified". Bigger upfront investment but you wont have to constantly mess with getting the small ones at the home improvement stores, The 20 cubic tank will last you a long, long time.

Add this -
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00697ZYTA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Whatever you get needs a CGA450 connection for the tank. It is great to be able to precisely control the flow of oxygen.

and a stainless steel oxygen wand and you are set. The wand allows you to quickly / easily position the stone at the bottom of your fermenter.

I did a fair amount of research before I decided on this route and so far I have had excellent results.

If you decide to go aquarium pump route - get the 2 micron stone and a inline Hepa filter. Most of the big online retailers carry them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeast need oxygen. Especially with high OG wort, atmospheric aeration in inadequate. Buy an oxygenation stone, pitch adequate yeast, your beer will dramatically improve. One of the best beer making investments.
 
This from William's brewing!

I was having stuck fermentations that would hang up around 1.020. Got this thing for christmas and haven't had a stuck fermentation since. Liquid or Dry, proper aeration makes a world of difference in process and product!

An aquarium pump with a filter and air stone on it would work but you would only be getting a maximum of 8ppm dissolved oxygen since that is the most the atmosphere can provide. By using pure oxygen, you are able to hit the recommended 12-15ppm dissolved oxygen content in your wort. Thats why I went with the o2 kit.

Spend $40 for an aquarium pump, tubing, stone and filter or cough up a little extra for pure o2 and never worry about contamination or under-aerating.
 
Disposable oxygen canisters from Lowes or HD go for around $7. I use a regulator from Williams (best price I've found) and a SS stone from my LHBS. No HEPA filter and no problem with infection provided you sanitize everything and boil the stone to clean it. I get around 6 batches per tank. There was a big improvement in my finished product.
 
Easiest way for me was to put a couple holds in the tubing from my kettle to the carboy. Put the pin holes on a curve in the tubing and you'll get a Venturi Effect that sucks air in. No infections yet (knock on wood) and I've thrown my O2 tank in storage.
 
I use a graut mixer attached to my drill for aerating my worts and that works fine for me...

Hmmm. Great idea! Seems to me, I could take the high-dollar stainless steel paint stirrer I got at the LHBS for degassing wine, and use it to aerate wort. Thank You :) !
 
Even though it might not be strictly *necessary* with dry yeast, it's a good habit to get into.
There is no reason to get in the (bad) habit, if you are using dry yeast. It is just one more thing to go wrong, and is not needed. I have heard rumors that if you plan to repitch/harvest the dry yeast, it might be beneficial to aerate the initial pitch. A better habit to form with dry yeast is proper rehydration.

From my reading of the article, it might be a good idea to let a little kettle trub get into the fermenter if you're not using pure O2.
I also hear that you want the trub out of there after 24-48 hours. This is one of the advantages of conicals. They permit putting trub in, then bottom dump after it settles. I don't want to go conical, just because I think non-jacketed ones are a pain, and jacketed ones are not readily available in <30gal sizes. It would be nice to just pour all that junk in, then dump a day later. For trubby/hoppy ~15gal batches using an IC, it would save a few gallons of wasted wort without any special measures. You could just press/squeeze the hops down with a false bottom, and transfer whatever's left.

I'm thinking about getting another stone, though (just the stone) for aerating starters. I didn't think that was too necessary with a stir plate, but I'm not sure.
For stir plates, most just use a loose foil cap to allow air diffusion/exchange. The yeast will grab what they want from the air/starter interface. It's one of the reasons to stir.

I figured that way, I could be sure the O2 bubbles would have maximum contact time with the wort before reaching the top. I'm thinking about getting another stone, though (just the stone) for aerating starters. I didn't think that was too necessary with a stir plate, but I'm not sure.
Smaller bubbles dissolve easier in your wort. You do not want the oxygen bubble to reach the top of your wort. You want them to dissipate within the wort before they reach the top.

If conserving oxygen was the goal, you would not want to see many surface bubbles. If your goal is to expediently aerate, you want to have a moderate amount bubbles breaking the surface. The amount of O2 going into solution at the surface vs. the bubbles until just below the surface, is a ratio of ~10/1, or more.

There are a lot of variables and extremes, of course, but a moderate amount of surfacing bubbles will be much faster than having them disappear/absorb just below the surface. Also, if you put O2 in too slowly, it will be coming out of solution at close the rate you are putting it in to solution. Smaller bubbles are still better. I believe this is the most common advice given for using the O2 wands, isn't it? To have a moderate amount of surface action at ~1LPM for 1 minute.

I read about this in relation to aerating sewage treatment ponds, but a similar approach is used when carbonating in bright tanks, for the same reason. Search for 'skin effect' if you want more info, and something should turn up.
 
Hmmm. Great idea! Seems to me, I could take the high-dollar stainless steel paint stirrer I got at the LHBS for degassing wine, and use it to aerate wort. Thank You :) !
If you are using carboys/better bottles, and a stopper as the 'bushing', you will need to periodically introduce new air in the headspace. For a bucket, you can leave the lid off. You could also use it in kettle, depending on how you handle trub.

Did you buy an actual stainless paint/mud mixer? There is one that would work perfectly for buckets, but it isn't high-dollar- ~$15 (from memory). I think the brand is Kraft, and the model is the one with the top and bottom wings framed with circles and connected by vertical wings. I have used the non-stainless version for mixing, and it is impressive. IIRC, you place it mid- level in the center, and it pulls the bottom up, the top down, and spits it out the sides (but don't quote me on that). However it does it, it works well, and would aerate nicely.

Edit to add a links:
There are a bunch of different models with different mixing actions, but the action I mentioned (Jiffy mixer?) seems like it would work best. It doesn't result in 'spinning' the product. They can be found cheaper elsewhere.
http://www.krafttool.com/catalog.aspx?cat=91&subcat=117

Here is a site with more sizes, and better prices:
http://www.bigceramicstore.com/supplies/JiffyMixers.htm
 
There is no reason to get in the (bad) habit, if you are using dry yeast. It is just one more thing to go wrong, and is not needed. I have heard rumors that if you plan to repitch/harvest the dry yeast, it might be beneficial to aerate the initial pitch. A better habit to form with dry yeast is proper rehydration.


I also hear that you want the trub out of there after 24-48 hours. This is one of the advantages of conicals. They permit putting trub in, then bottom dump after it settles. I don't want to go conical, just because I think non-jacketed ones are a pain, and jacketed ones are not readily available in <30gal sizes. It would be nice to just pour all that junk in, then dump a day later. For trubby/hoppy ~15gal batches using an IC, it would save a few gallons of wasted wort without any special measures. You could just press/squeeze the hops down with a false bottom, and transfer whatever's left.

I'll agree to disagree about the dry yeast. I can't see that it would hurt, although it may be unnecessary. Regarding the jacketed conicals, I hope I don't come across as pedantic, but morebeer has them from 7.5 to 27 gallons. They look horribly cost-ineffective at the small sizes, though. :)

For stir plates, most just use a loose foil cap to allow air diffusion/exchange. The yeast will grab what they want from the air/starter interface. It's one of the reasons to stir.

That's what I've done with my starters, figuring that enough O2 would get sucked into the wort from the stirring action, but for a few dollars more, I'm thinking that giving it a head start couldn't hurt. (Not enough that it would all get driven off when I turn the stir plate on, but enough to put a few ppm in there to get started with.) I dunno, it just seems like since going all-grain, making starters, and oxygenating the wort for a minute or so with a low-moderate flow of O2, the primary attentuation phase on my beers has tended to start very quickly and last only about 1-1.5 days before slowing way down, based on my Extremely Reliable :rolleyes: Airlock Fermentation Indicator :fro:. I'll freely admit that I may be getting close to cargo-cult territory regarding oxygenation, though.
 
I'll agree to disagree about the dry yeast. I can't see that it would hurt, although it may be unnecessary.
I believe I stated why it could hurt- one more thing to go wrong, like introducing contamination. Especially for absolutely no benefit, except for the debatable benefit if yeast harvesting- but for most home use scenarios, there would be no real benefit to harvest from a dry yeast.

Regarding the jacketed conicals, I hope I don't come across as pedantic, but morebeer has them from 7.5 to 27 gallons. They look horribly cost-ineffective at the small sizes, though. :)
Hopefully being pedantic, those are not jacketed. That style of heated/cooled conical is less practical than even the internal cooling/heating plates or coils that are available, and I may have to resort to. To be even more specific, I would prefer one with a 'dimple jacket'. The most common DIY 'jacketed' conicals are simple 'nested cones', which is a crude design.

That's what I've done with my starters, figuring that enough O2 would get sucked into the wort from the stirring action, but for a few dollars more, I'm thinking that giving it a head start couldn't hurt. (Not enough that it would all get driven off when I turn the stir plate on, but enough to put a few ppm in there to get started with.)
Having the starter wort oxygenated at inoculation would be ideal, but again there is the danger of introducing something, and for what I would think would be minimal benefit with a stir plate. Shaking it a few times while allowing some air exchange would do the same thing up to (pick your favorite opinion on O2 ppm using air). The air pump-filter-stone would work too, and prevent over-oxygenating (which is detrimental) the starter wort. I am doubtful either will make any meaningful difference when using a stir plate.

Also, not sure if by 'sucked into the wort' you believe that there needs to be a vortex in your starter- there does not. Simply turning over the surface layer is sufficient. Over-aggressive stirring, like that required to generate a vortex, has a good chance of damaging a higher percentage of yeast cells than is acceptable/required.

I dunno, it just seems like since going all-grain, making starters, and oxygenating the wort for a minute or so with a low-moderate flow of O2, the primary attentuation phase on my beers has tended to start very quickly and last only about 1-1.5 days before slowing way down
Could it be that all of your ancillary processes improved as well?
I suggest you investigate the point in my previous post about >90% of 02 going into solution as the bubbles break the surface, at least if the bubbles are allowed to reach the surface. Even using a simple formula, this would mean you could oxygenate ~10 times faster if the bubbles reach the surface.

Also, I never said that oxygenation was not a benefit for liquid yeast, and even stated that it was.
With all-grain, it's possible to produce wort that is more fermentable than LME, and especially DME. Starters, for liquid yeast, certainly help. Not only to get the proper cell counts, but also to replenish their energy/nutrient stores. I would not be surprised if using a starter (for liquid yeast) to double cell counts produces better end results than simply using 2 vials/smack-packs.

based on my Extremely Reliable :rolleyes: Airlock Fermentation Indicator :fro:.
Never mention this again, lest you attract the wrath of Revvy. I think his main stance is that no airlock activity is not the sign of no fermentation, though he routinely scorns using the presence of bubbles as a sign of activity as well. I, on the other hand, routinely use the bubble rate to stop my ciders early, with fairly accurate results. Its just chick swill anyway.

Watch out for mentioning a secondary also. I, however, believe they are beneficial for >~2 week time frames. Just taste the beer that you can settle out of the cake. That stuff is constantly diffusing (osmosising?) into your beer. You would never hear a commercial brewer advocate not doing a trub dump after 24-48hrs, at least I haven't, and I have asked more than a few. They also do yeast dumps for this and other reasons, like head pressures and yeast compression.

I'll freely admit that I may be getting close to cargo-cult territory regarding oxygenation, though.
I had a professor tell a funny story about a pigeon feeding experiment where they randomly fed them, instead of using a repetitive/consistent stimulus. The result was a bunch of pigeons each performing what they believed was the magical dance that pleased the food gods. Same idea.
 
Hopefully being pedantic, those are not jacketed.

Ah, I didn't realize that. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, not sure if by 'sucked into the wort' you believe that there needs to be a vortex in your starter- there does not.

Oh, sorry I was unclear--I set mine so that there's a very small dimple in the surface, not a huge tornado going down to the stir bar (which is usually about 1/3 of the range available to me on the rheostat, about 3:00 on a scale of 12:00 to 9:00, not that that's particularly relevant to anyone else's equipment).

Could it be that all of your ancillary processes improved as well? I suggest you investigate the point in my previous post about >90% of 02 going into solution as the bubbles break the surface, at least if the bubbles are allowed to reach the surface.

Well, yes. I mentioned starters and oxygenation, which I think I started doing right around the same time (after moving to all-grain, which the yeast also seemed to love). To clarify what I meant by "low-moderate flow," I meant that I adjust the regulator until I get bubbles breaking the surface, but I don't turn it up past that. I usually overshoot a bit due to impatience and dial it back, but I keep it on the low side of things while still being able to see evidence of the gas flow at the top of the wort. Knowing my tendency to go on about things, I aimed for brevity but inadvertently sacrificed clarity in the pursuit.

Also, I never said that oxygenation was not a benefit for liquid yeast, and even stated that it was.

I'm not sure where I stated or implied that. If I did, I certainly didn't mean to. If I could figure out a way to ask you to help me avoid that in the future by pointing out the trouble spot without sounding like I'm challenging you, I would, but I can't.

Never mention this again, lest you attract the wrath of Revvy.

You know how they say that it's very difficult to convey tone through text? That must go at least quadruple for irony. I mean, if some people thought that Swift was actually advocating eating Irish babies, I don't have much of a chance on the Internet; I'm no Swift. ;)

Watch out for mentioning a secondary also. I, however, believe they are beneficial for >~2 week time frames.

I've only used a secondary once, and that was when I'd added pumpkin to the boil, got some of the stuff into primary, and wanted to let it settle a bit more. I definitely favor skipping the secondary. Less work, fewer things to go wrong, etc. And that's exactly where you're coming from on the oxygenation issue (when stated by the manufacturer, I'd add), I realize.

I had a professor tell a funny story about a pigeon feeding experiment where they randomly fed them, instead of using a repetitive/consistent stimulus. The result was a bunch of pigeons each performing what they believed was the magical dance that pleased the food gods. Same idea.

Indeed. I love hearing about experiments like that. It seems to me that a lot of human activity/technology started this way, not just brewing. We (as a species) find some things that produce a certain effect, we vary things and tweak processes a bit and find things that work better and worse, and then we later learn the science behind it, the results (e.g., beer) driving the research, like with Pasteur. Knowing what's actually happening, then, we know why altering this step or that process changes things, which lets us figure out how to do it even better, collectively. That still doesn't stop the occasional individual from doing his or her particular god-pleasing food dance, though. :)
 
Given the OP's situation, this is the best advice I can think of:
For dry yeast, don't worry about aeration. You can even drain wort directly into the fermenter with no air exposure.
Pitch the proper amount of yeast (which may be more than one dry yeast packet for big beers, consult your favorite yeast calculator).
Do not make a 'starter' with dry yeast, just pitch more dry yeast to get the proper cell count (it's usually cheaper).
Rehydrate dry yeast in plain water (or along with the special rehydrating nutrients) prior to pitching. There are instructions on the yeast manuf. website.
Control your temps, and possibly increase temps slightly toward the end.
If you are getting significant sulphur smells/flavors, or stalled ferments, add yeast nutrients to your wort. There are several types and combinations to choose from.
If you still have issues with attenuation/yeast health due to high gravities, consult 'HighTest's' stepped yeast nutrient additions in the mead forum. It is a good source of info on yeast nutrient differences as well.
 
If I could figure out a way to ask you to help me avoid that in the future by pointing out the trouble spot without sounding like I'm challenging you, I would, but I can't.
It's more just the general lack of worthwhile advice and clarity.
Or maybe this:
I'll agree to disagree about the dry yeast. I can't see that it would hurt, although it may be unnecessary.
This is classic passive-agressive, and universally translated as I think your are wrong, and I am right. Or that there is no way to prove either position, so it is simply a matter of opinion. Listing pros and cons, or rebutting a con (or pro) with evidence, is a more impartial method. Or you can just simply be aggressive, like me, then there are no pretenses to sort through.

Here are examples:

Wyeast has an article on their site about oxygenation: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm
You countered a statement the OP provided from the dry yeast manuf he uses, with a link to a liquid yeast manuf, which had already been referenced and debunked for dry yeast in the quoted text from the manuf provided by the OP.

Even though it might not be strictly *necessary* with dry yeast, it's a good habit to get into.
What is the rationale for it being a 'good habit' to get into?
And I won't even address the olive oil red herring. I believe that was found to not work well, but can't remember the final report. I read up on it, and know that I did not adopt it, nor is it popular, so there must have been some downside to it.

I'm thinking about getting another stone, though (just the stone) for aerating starters. I didn't think that was too necessary with a stir plate, but I'm not sure.
As previously mentioned- from what I have read, there is more than enough air interchange through diffusion and agitation. If you think an initial boost is beneficial, a way to get that with a lot less hassle and chance of contamination would be to purge the head space with pure O2 before capping, since you have it available.
I use an aquarium pump with an inline filter for my yeast starters.
I always make a starter and aerate the wort prior to pitching, regardless of whether or not I use dry or liquid yeast. I think it's a better practice.
Do you guys brew together?

To clarify what I meant by "low-moderate flow," I meant that I adjust the regulator until I get bubbles breaking the surface, but I don't turn it up past that. I usually overshoot a bit due to impatience and dial it back, but I keep it on the low side of things while still being able to see evidence of the gas flow at the top of the wort. Knowing my tendency to go on about things, I aimed for brevity but inadvertently sacrificed clarity in the pursuit.
Below is your original post, emphasizing the importance of 'bubble contact time' below the surface.
I figured that way, I could be sure the O2 bubbles would have maximum contact time with the wort before reaching the top.
The contact time below the surface won't change much with higher flows, unless you release at a rate so high it creates excessive currents in the vessel. The bubble rise time in liquid is fairly constant for a given bubble size.

The vast majority of O2 going into solution happens at the surface layer as the bubbles burst. As long as the flow is not so high as to create a saturated area larger than the bubble zone, bubbles breaking the surface is a good thing. Not that this has any importance to the OP, since he does not need to aerate for his situation.

I've only used a secondary once, and that was when I'd added pumpkin to the boil, got some of the stuff into primary, and wanted to let it settle a bit more. I definitely favor skipping the secondary. Less work, fewer things to go wrong, etc. And that's exactly where you're coming from on the oxygenation issue (when stated by the manufacturer, I'd add), I realize.
The big difference is that I stated what I thought was a tangible benefit gained by the additional step. I believe there is a benefit to removing trub, and provided my rationale, along with industry standards as evidence. I even gave a way to easily test it yourself, as I have already done. If you have never decanted beer from the dregs after racking, and compared it to a sample from the main body, I recommend trying it. If your palate cannot perceive a difference between the two samples, then perhaps you would not realize any benefit from using a secondary.

You know how they say that it's very difficult to convey tone through text? That must go at least quadruple for irony. I mean, if some people thought that Swift was actually advocating eating Irish babies, I don't have much of a chance on the Internet; I'm no Swift. ;)
Yes, it is. Perhaps you might up the irony a little, since I had no idea that you were actually mocking, as a whole, oxygenation, starters, stir plates, liquid yeast, dry yeast, and even going so far as to ridicule those who go to the pointless trouble of brewing with actual grains.

RE: my response to your comments on airlock activity- I realized you were being tongue in cheek. I also suspect, given your join date, that you are not aware of a certain longtime member who has several pet peeves- using airlocks as ferm indicators, advocating secondaries, and claims that all grain is superior to extract (to mention a few). I will not mention his name again, as I already have once, because he has some kind of underworldly talent for finding threads where these offenses occur. He even has a page long form letter/rebuttal he posts every time he discovers one. People will even predict his arrival, as if mentioning airlock activity is a sign of the apocalypse.
 
dumb question:

I use a stick blender to whip up my wort. I generally go for 45-60 seconds and there is quite a bit of foam/froth when finished. I wonder how much oxygen I'm getting into my beer? cwi do you have any guesses?
 
dumb question:

I use a stick blender to whip up my wort. I generally go for 45-60 seconds and there is quite a bit of foam/froth when finished. I wonder how much oxygen I'm getting into my beer? cwi do you have any guesses?
Only what the maximum possible is based on some testing that was posted, some pod casts, and some other papers that weren't strictly about wort. I believe the commonly accepted max when using air is 8ppm, and 8-12-15ppm (take your pick, it's one of those) is the recommended range. The 8ppm isn't some theoretical max. It's apparently easily obtainable just by shaking a carboy with a few intermittent air exchanges. I have no personal evidence, as I don't have an O2 meter. I only have the usual evidence everyone provides to back up their claims- My beer tastes awesome, explain that!

As long as your blender is incorporating air well, turning over the wort thoroughly, and you are allowing new air in, you should be close to 8ppm range. I am doubtful going from 8ppm to 12 or 15ppm would provide any benefits, unless you are harvesting. One of objectives of aerating is to not only provide healthy enough cells for fermentation after the typically prescribed doubling, but to have healthy enough cells for propagating a subsequent pitch.

Check out the blenders I provided links to in a previous post. These seem like the best all around mechanical aerators, if you can fit them in your fermenter:
http://www.bigceramicstore.com/supplies/JiffyMixers.htm

As for personal preferences, I jump around between no aerating (dry yeast), shaking the fermenter, aerating on the way to the fermenter (with air when straining due to excessive trub or pellet hops), purging with O2 and shaking, aquarium pump and stone for ~5 minutes, etc. I acquired an O2 bottle and flowmeter, but haven't bothered getting the finer stone, or even using my air stone with it. I have been mostly using dry yeast lately, since I make a lot of pales and IPAs, and it's just too easy.

Next liquid yeast I use, I will probably break down and use the O2 and a stone, just to try it out. I already don't like the maintenance and sanitation difficulties with using them, especially with flexible tubing. My current plan is to make a stainless wand, and stick the whole thing in the oven. I sterilize many things that way.
 
Only what the maximum possible is based on some testing that was posted, some pod casts, and some other papers that weren't strictly about wort. I believe the commonly accepted max when using air is 8ppm, and 8-12-15ppm (take your pick, it's one of those) is the recommended range. The 8ppm isn't some theoretical max. It's apparently easily obtainable just by shaking a carboy with a few intermittent air exchanges. I have no personal evidence, as I don't have an O2 meter. I only have the usual evidence everyone provides to back up their claims- My beer tastes awesome, explain that!

As long as your blender is incorporating air well, turning over the wort thoroughly, and you are allowing new air in, you should be close to 8ppm range. I am doubtful going from 8ppm to 12 or 15ppm would provide any benefits, unless you are harvesting. One of objectives of aerating is to not only provide healthy enough cells for fermentation after the typically prescribed doubling, but to have healthy enough cells for propagating a subsequent pitch.

Check out the blenders I provided links to in a previous post. These seem like the best all around mechanical aerators, if you can fit them in your fermenter:
http://www.bigceramicstore.com/supplies/JiffyMixers.htm

As for personal preferences, I jump around between no aerating (dry yeast), shaking the fermenter, aerating on the way to the fermenter (with air when straining due to excessive trub or pellet hops), purging with O2 and shaking, aquarium pump and stone for ~5 minutes, etc. I acquired an O2 bottle and flowmeter, but haven't bothered getting the finer stone, or even using my air stone with it. I have been mostly using dry yeast lately, since I make a lot of pales and IPAs, and it's just too easy.

Next liquid yeast I use, I will probably break down and use the O2 and a stone, just to try it out. I already don't like the maintenance and sanitation difficulties with using them, especially with flexible tubing. My current plan is to make a stainless wand, and stick the whole thing in the oven. I sterilize many things that way.

Well, this post comes a bit late as I just ordered the air kit from Williams (SS wand/2 micron stone/inline filter) for use with aquarium pumps. It seemed like I was reading that there was no way other than o2 stone that I would get near the recommended levels in my wort (I almost always repitch and/or make a starter). Hopefully it wasn't an unnecessary $48 (w/shipping)
 
Well, this post comes a bit late as I just ordered the air kit from Williams (SS wand/2 micron stone/inline filter) for use with aquarium pumps. It seemed like I was reading that there was no way other than o2 stone that I would get near the recommended levels in my wort (I almost always repitch and/or make a starter). Hopefully it wasn't an unnecessary $48 (w/shipping)

If you decide that you want to go pure O2, you can always just purchase the O2 regulator from Williams, as that's all you're missing from the O2 kit. Which I just ordered, thanks to this thread.
 
If you decide that you want to go pure O2, you can always just purchase the O2 regulator from Williams, as that's all you're missing from the O2 kit. Which I just ordered, thanks to this thread.

I figure the first step is getting o2 properly introduced in order to get adequate PPM. I'm less worried about infection since I was introducing ambient O2 via the stick blender previously. This having an inline filter is at least a step-up.
 
I figure the first step is getting o2 properly introduced in order to get adequate PPM. I'm less worried about infection since I was introducing ambient O2 via the stick blender previously. This having an inline filter is at least a step-up.
Except for the surface area of the stone being ~the same as the Goodyear blimp, with ~5 billion nooks and crannies for things to play hide and seek in. Just kidding, and trying to scare the crap out of you. The stones can be problem areas, though. Boiling before use is recommended. Not touching it either, due to oils from your person. I surmise that baking it at ~300F would boil those off if it ever happened, but not sure. I usually bake mine before use, or boil and starsan the crap out of it.

If you like to repitch, I would suggest skipping the 2 micron stone and air pump, and going to the .5 micron and O2. You can always return the package, and eat the ~$6 shipping. Or, I think there is some trick where if you refuse the package, UPS refunds the place that shipped it. I have had places tell me to do that before, when there has been an issue with a shipment that was caught before delivery. Not sure about the refund, though.

Once you have an O2 bottle, and you have a batch you don't plan on repitching afterwards, you can O2 purge and shake if you don't want to mess with the wand protocol. Or just shake aerate, and call it good. There should still be plenty of O2 for the yeast for that batch.

For starters on stir plates, it doesn't seem like it's necessary, or even demonstrably beneficial, to do any aerating.

One more thing about the air pump and stone. I found I needed some way to throttle the pump output, since it can cause excessive foaming otherwise. There will always be more foaming than with O2, mainly because you have to run it for ~5X longer than with O2, and, depending on your stance on head proteins, ruin your beer forever. I have no definitive info on the head proteins, other than they can create a mighty froth when using a pump and a stone, and still seem to cause foaming if my keg lines are not balanced- though it may have foamed even more had I not aerated. Who knows?
 
For starters on stir plates, it doesn't seem like it's necessary, or even demonstrably beneficial, to do any aerating.

I wonder why that is (the last part about starters)? You mean not aerating the starter? Or not aerating the wort (beer) before pitching the finished starter into it?

Also, I hope the 2 micron stone will increase the aeration over what I've been doing, or do you think it wont?

Edit: I found this thread where the OP measured 90 seconds of aeration with a 2 micron stone and it was off the charts high:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/o2-results-my-new-o2-meter-318420/
 
I wonder why that is (the last part about starters)? You mean not aerating the starter? Or not aerating the wort (beer) before pitching the finished starter into it?
The reason for not having to aerate a starter is that the combination of the stir plate and loose foil cap keeps a constant supply of 02 readily available for the yeast. The introduced air (diffusion + a little agitation I'm sure) is thought to be virtually free of contaminants unless there are significant updrafts near your stir plate.

I have shaken starters before, but it invariably results in some sticky mess that I would rather not deal with. I just funnel ~1/2 the starter wort in, then the yeast, then the other 1/2, then fire up the stir bar- but just enough to keep the yeast from settling on the bottom and the surface layer turning over. The reason for the funneling is that I use gallon growlers, instead of a $60 5 liter flask. The flasks are superior, both for being able to cook and chill in the same vessel, and also their shape helping keep things stirred up.

You would still want to aerate the wort when pitching a 'starter' made with liquid yeast.

The reasoning behind not having to aerate wort when pitching dry yeast (properly hydrated of course), is that the manuf has played some tricks to get the yeasts to load up on nutrients (allegedly more than a stir plate does for a starter) prior to drying. I presume this is a side effect of their general production processes, since I doubt they care if the brewers have to aerate, or not, when using their yeast.

Edit:I added some stuff at the bottom of the previous post, if you got to it before I changed it.
 
The reason for not having to aerate a starter is that the combination of the stir plate and loose foil cap keeps a constant supply of 02 readily available for the yeast. The introduced air (diffusion + a little agitation I'm sure) is thought to be virtually free of contaminants unless there are significant updrafts near your stir plate.

I have shaken starters before, but it invariably results in some sticky mess that I would rather not deal with. I just funnel ~1/2 the starter wort in, then the yeast, then the other 1/2, then fire up the stir bar- but just enough to keep the yeast from settling on the bottom and the surface layer turning over. The reason for the funneling is that I use gallon growlers, instead of a $60 5 liter flask. The flasks are superior, both for being able to cook and chill in the same vessel, and also their shape helping keep things stirred up.

You would still want to aerate the wort when pitching a 'starter' made with liquid yeast.

The reasoning behind not having to aerate wort when pitching dry yeast (properly hydrated of course), is that the manuf has played some tricks to get the yeasts to load up on nutrients (allegedly more than a stir plate does for a starter) prior to drying. I presume this is a side effect of their general production processes, since I doubt they care if the brewers have to aerate, or not, when using their yeast.

Edit:I added some stuff at the bottom of the previous post, if you got to it before I changed it.

Thanks, still curious if you think the aquarium pump/2micron stone will oxygenate better than my stick-blender/any other "household" method would? Otherwise I just threw $48 into the ocean.
 
Also, I hope the 2 micron stone will increase the aeration over what I've been doing, or do you think it wont?

Edit: I found this thread where the OP measured 90 seconds of aeration with a 2 micron stone and it was off the charts high:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/o2-results-my-new-o2-meter-318420/

The 2 micron will work with O2, it will just be less efficient. The drawbacks would be higher oxygen use and time, and the resultant increased foaming. As stated previously, depending on your stance on head proteins, this can be either a non-issue, or a deal breaker. That said, the increase in foaming is probably trivial. The increased cost of O2 due to 2 micron vs. .5 micron is also trivial, even with home center bottles, especially if you have to eat shipping otherwise. The ~$20 you spent for the aquarium pump would be a total loss, though, since I doubt you will ever use it again, once you have O2. I found those filters to be a PITA to deal with, mainly for the unknowns after they have been handled a few times.
 
The 2 micron will work with O2, it will just be less efficient. The drawbacks would be higher oxygen use and time, and the resultant increased foaming. As stated previously, depending on your stance on head proteins, this can be either a non-issue, or a deal breaker. That said, the increase in foaming is probably trivial. The increased cost of O2 due to 2 micron vs. .5 micron is also trivial, even with home center bottles, especially if you have to eat shipping otherwise. The ~$20 you spent for the aquarium pump would be a total loss, though, since I doubt you will ever use it again, once you have O2. I found those filters to be a PITA to deal with, mainly for the unknowns after they have been handled a few times.

Haha, I don't think I'm phrasing the question properly:

Is an aquarium pump capable of aerating at a higher PPM than a stick blender, paint stirrer on a drill, shaking, etc?
 
Thanks, still curious if you think the aquarium pump/2micron stone will oxygenate better than my stick-blender/any other "household" method would? Otherwise I just threw $48 into the ocean.

You can do the math, and see about returning it, or stopping/refusing shipment.

I found the aquarium pump to be a PITA. From the tubing, to the questionable sanitation of the filter, to the foaming, etc. I used mine a few times, and went back to the shake method, or purge and shake, but I use Sankeys. It was difficult to dial in the air pump flow with only a top view and a flashlight. I would not do the shake method with glass carboys, and don't even own any anymore.

I also don't repitch. When/if I do need to aerate to harvest for a repitch, I will use O2 and a stainless wand. I just don't see myself repitching very much, if at all. If just doing it to save money, most brewpubs will fill you up a jug of yeast, usually WLP001 or some Cal Ale strain, for free. If you are doing it for quality reasons, the local brewpub's yeast is probably healthier than the average White Labs vial, and should already be adapted to your local water profile. If you are using some specialty strain, are you really brewing it regularly enough to repitch?

I just don't see the extra effort of repitching to be worth the effort or savings. Maybe if I had a conical, where I could manage the dumps to get the proper segment of the yeast, and didn't have to wash it, like you do with other vessels. You can even harvest enough to for a proper pitch without having to make a starter, from what I read, anyway.
 
Thanks. I use open head fermenters. I suppose worst case I'm just out the money for the filter and can get the O2 regulator for use with HW store tanks down the road.
 
Haha, I don't think I'm phrasing the question properly:

Is an aquarium pump capable of aerating at a higher PPM than a stick blender, paint stirrer on a drill, shaking, etc?
I think our posts are merely strangers in the night, exchanging glances while they cross in the ether.
Edit: I also didn't bother to see what came in the Williams kit. I assumed the pump did. They are correct that even the cheapest aq pumps will push enough air/pressure. Other stores claim some fancy HP/HV aq pump is needed. That is a bit pricy just for a wand and a ~$2 filter, though.

The aquarium pump is not capable of aerating to the levels most recommend for repitching. How many repitches/generations it will take before it affects your beer is anyone's guess. The tests I have seen are usually all or nothing aeration, or 8ppm vs. 12-15ppm and the resultant health of the next gen.

The pump is also not capable of doing any more than shaking/mixing. The benefits would be purely personal choices, and related to process- easier, safer, quicker, etc.

If you are going to regularly repitch, you best (only?) option is the O2 kit. Whether you keep the current kit, swap it for a true O2 kit, or add a O2 reg and use the air stone, it's a personal choice.

One alternative if you are just wanting to get to 12-15ppm as cheaply as possible is to just buy the O2 bottle from the home center. You can then purge and shake. It will take some rough calcs to determine how many times to purge the headspace, and it may just take one, depending on your vessel and batch size.
 
ImperialStout said:
I brew big beers, usually 18 to 23 pounds grain and 8 to 10% ABV using dry yeast only. Have been reading about aerating big beer wort to give the yeast enough oxygen but does this apply to dry yeast?

From the Danstar FAQ:
Quote:
I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?
No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either. During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation. The only reason to aerate the wort when using wet yeast is to provide the yeast with oxygen so that it can produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids which are important parts of the cell membrane and therefore essential for biomass production.

If the slurry from dry yeast fermentation is re-pitched from one batch of beer to another, the wort has to be aerated as with any liquid yeast.

Does the above apply to big beers or is it better to aerate? I typically hold drain tube from cooled wort in brew pot well above the wort level in the fermenting bucket. Is further aerating necessary for big beers? If so, how to aerate? An aquarium pump for a 5 gal tank and a small stone cost $10. Devises that use oxygen cylinders are faster and provide more oxygen but they cost $40 and more. If you aerate what do you use. Can a small fuel filter be used to trap impurities from the air?

Well, no is the real answer if you strictly use dry yeast. Even the manufacturer states that but..... Since I am a rebel and I do both and sometimes do big beers.. I got into the habit early to aerate and now I just aerate dry or wet and haven't had a stuck one yet (knock on wood)

EDIT: I brew a lot and have never done anything other than use a paint spinner. As far as I'm concerned, it aerated the heck out of the wort in a 3-5 min spin.
 
Thanks. I use open head fermenters. I suppose worst case I'm just out the money for the filter and can get the O2 regulator for use with HW store tanks down the road.
I see Williams doesn't offer a wand with a .5 micron stone. There are other places that do, and for much cheaper from what I remember. I remember one place with 1/4 NPT stones and wands. Makes cleaning simpler.

If you foresee going to O2 for yeast harvest reasons, I would bite the bullet and return it. You will more than likely not want or need the $10 filter, or the ~$10 aquarium pump you will have to buy to use it, once you try O2, even when it isn't strictly needed for repitching. It's just less time and fuss, even if just for purging and shaking.
 
I see Williams doesn't offer a wand with a .5 micron stone. There are other places that do, and for much cheaper from what I remember. I remember one place with 1/4 NPT stones and wands. Makes cleaning simpler.

If you foresee going to O2 for yeast harvest reasons, I would bite the bullet and return it. You will more than likely not want or need the $10 filter, or the ~$10 aquarium pump you will have to buy to use it, once you try O2, even when it isn't strictly needed for repitching. It's just less time and fuss, even if just for purging and shaking.

I've cancelled my order.

Edit: I just got the little regulator thing instead. I'm ordering a 0.5micron stone also. I wish it came with the SS wand, but I can figure something out to weigh it down I'm sure.

OP, sorry to hijack your thread, but it was on topic at least!

Now, how do you guys keep the stone on the bottom (those of you that don't have the SS wand)? Also, what are your handling practices/tips?
 
I've cancelled my order.

Edit: I just got the little regulator thing instead. I'm ordering a 0.5micron stone also. I wish it came with the SS wand, but I can figure something out to weigh it down I'm sure.

OP, sorry to hijack your thread, but it was on topic at least!

Now, how do you guys keep the stone on the bottom (those of you that don't have the SS wand)? Also, what are your handling practices/tips?
The stiff wand is key. Using soft plastic hoses/tubing is a nightmare.
The stone you ordered has a barb for attaching the gas, and 1/2NPT threads for the inline injector setup (which is a gadget that is a bit overcomplicated/imprecise). You will need to find some stiff tubing to couple the stone to the wand, or solder a SS tube onto/over the barb. It should be workable, though. Most two part wands use ~1/4NPT fittings on the stone, and then have a ~1/4NPT compression or soldered fitting on the tube/wand. Some use tube/tube compression on the wand and stone, which might work if the barb is a size that happens to fit a compression fitting.
 
I got the stone from norcal which just has the hose barb, so I will have to figure something out. I'm crafty though
 
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