Adjusting water - Mash / Sparge

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Tiroux

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Hi!
When I realized that Beersmith have a Water Profile Tool with which we can calculate the amounts of different adjuncts needed to achieve a precise water profile, I bought CaSO4 and MgSO4, and I already had at home, of course, NaCl and NaHCO3.

I began to use it, and adjust my water profil, but my question is about the mash water versus the sparge water. Should I use the same profile for both?
 
Adjust your water for the FINAL volume you plan to collect in the fermentor. For the carbonate additions, put those in the kettle, everything else can go in the mash water. For sparge water, you only need to acidify it using Lactic Acid (88% sold in LHBS), or Phosphoric Acid...adjust to a pH around 6
 
Because the water evaporates and the solid components stay, i guess?

Ok, just to make sur I understand...
I have 5 gallons mash water
I have 4 gallons sparge water
For a total 6 gallons batch

I put the Gypsum, Epsom and Table salt for ajusting 6 gallons, into the 5gal mash water.
I put the backing soda or chalk at boiling, again for 6 gallons concentration.
I put nothing in the sparge water exept something to lower the PH at 6.

Lactic Acid isn't dangerous for the mash. I've heard a lot about lactic infections? Or maybe it's the lactobacillus that's dangerous?

That said, I'm using bottle water that plays around 6.
 
I have to disagree with the recommendation from helibrewer. I recommend adding minerals in proportion with the actual water volumes used for mashing and sparging. This is intended to duplicate what a brewer would see if they were brewing with water from a particular location.

There are several reactions and results from mashing, sparging, boiling, and fermentation that alter the ionic content in the finished beer. It makes no sense to try and aim for a certain ionic concentration in the kettle or beer when you can just correlate a starting water quality to a finished beer perception.

Carbonate additions should never be added unless needed in the mash. Adding carbonate to the kettle is counterproductive and if those additions raise the wort pH too high, the resulting hop character can be 'rough'. Do not take a water profile from a historic brewing city and assume it is what will make the best beer. The brewers from those cities often altered that starting water to better suit the style they were brewing. Blindly using 'city' profiles is sure to get you in trouble and produce less than stellar results.

Acidifying sparge water is typically a good idea, excepting that pH is not the criterion that should be used to assess when the acidification is adequate. The final alkalinity of the acidified water is what really counts. Using a acidification calculator like found in Bru'n Water is more appropriate than aiming for a pH value. The final pH value of properly acidified water could range between 5 and 6 depending upon the starting water alkalinity. Water that is naturally low in alkalinity (rain water, RO, distilled) do not need acidification at all.

If you are interested in learning more about brewing water chemistry, visit the Bru'n Water website and go to the Water Knowledge page.

Enjoy!
 
Thanks a lot!
That makes more sens, and that is what I was doing by instinct!
I'm not recreating water from a particular city, but I'm aiming the right concentration of each components according to the beer I'm brewing. I'm gonna check our that site for sure!
 
I just download the calculator and looked around a bit.

So, I add everything for mash water, for the actual volume of water.
For the sparge, I add only salt, gympsun and/or epsom, as needed, and the needed acid acording to the calculator. NOT carbonate or chalk.

Got it?
 
Acidifying sparge water is typically a good idea, excepting that pH is not the criterion that should be used to assess when the acidification is adequate. The final alkalinity of the acidified water is what really counts.

Strictly speaking that is, of course, correct but let's observe that if a brewer acidifies his water to some pH less than 6 there is no way that this water could ever pull the pH of the mash over which it flows above 6 so that it is quite sufficient from that POV to acidify to pH < 6 and be safe with respect to phenol extraction. But what about adding alkalinity to the kettle? By the time one gets to pH under 6 most of the alkalinity has been converted to CO2 and driven off by the high temperatures of the HLT. If, for example, a brewer decides to acidify sparge water to pH 5.5 only about 9% of carbo is in the form of bicarbonate and thus able to contribute to alkalinity. Supposing the brewer had water with alkalinity 300 and added acid to the point where the pH was 5.5 (I chose that number because it is supposedly the target that Chico brewing uses in treating their water). This would require 5.25 mEq/L of acid (257.2 mg/L of, for example, sulfuric acid). The alkalinity would be reduced to 35 ppm as CaCO3. More important that that, perhaps, is that the buffering capacity of the water at that point is modest so that if, for example, the brewer wanted to take kettle pH to 5.0 he'd only need an additional half an mEq/L for the water part (and appreciably more for the grains).

We could use the same reasoning as before. It should be clear that if the sparge water pH is the same as the mash pH it isn't going to change the mash pH. Our approach could be to set sparge water pH to be the same as mash pH and not have to worry about alkalinity measurement or calculation.
 
NaCl and MgSO4 have done more harm than good for me. I would stick with CaCl and CaSO4 unless your calcium is really high already. I agree with mabrunguard about not matching a profile just to match it. Learn what the different salts do and when to use them instead of trying to match things. As for adjusting the water for the final volume you have things working both ways. Boil off concentrates minerals, but spent grains will take some of your minerals (and water) with them.
 
The PH of sparge water is adjusted only for better extraction of the residual sugars in the grain, or for other reason? Because if it's only a efficiency question, I don't really bother. I don't brew much, and I don't care about a high eff... only a stable and constant one. If I could skip the acidification part, with all that goes with it, and only stand to salt additions, to boost, let say, hop caracter, mouthfeel, maltiness, etc...
 
The main reason is because phenols are acids (phenol is 'carbolic acid') and acids are, when protonated, less soluble than when ionized. The lower the pH the larger the fraction of acid molecules are protonated. Thus low pH extracts less phenols from the grain husk. This is also the reason for keeping sparge water temperature below 170 °F. Hotter water dissolves more phenols.

If your water isn't terribly alkaline there is probably no need to acidify it. The best thing to do is monitor runoff pH and extract (gravity) as you sparge. If pH stays below 6 until extract gets down to say 4 °P ( 1.016) SG then you can simply stop collection at 4 °P confident that your pH will not rise above 6 during the sparge. Do this for a couple of brews. This will calibrate you with respect to your equipment and brewing practice.

Finally, if a little phenol gets into your beer it isn't a big deal unless you are in a hurry. There are few beers that don't benefit from appreciable aging (lagering) and during this time phenols coalesce and drop out.
 
Good informations.
I don't have equipment to measure the gravity directly out the sparge, I can only measure to total gravity of the wort. I usually only target my pre-boil gravity. But, I usually mash in with a high water/grain volume (3L/Kg or a bit higher) so I don't oversparge. This gives me a bit lower efficiency, but like said, it's not a concern for me. I prefer the safest method. Costs be a few bucks more of grain, no big deal.
 
I don't have equipment to measure the gravity directly out the sparge, I can only measure to total gravity of the wort.
I am intrigued by this statement. I'm guessing that it means you don't have a convenient way to get a sample at the output of the lauter tun. You must have a hydrometer.
 
I have to disagree with the recommendation from helibrewer. I recommend adding minerals in proportion with the actual water volumes used for mashing and sparging. This is intended to duplicate what a brewer would see if they were brewing with water from a particular location.

There are several reactions and results from mashing, sparging, boiling, and fermentation that alter the ionic content in the finished beer. It makes no sense to try and aim for a certain ionic concentration in the kettle or beer when you can just correlate a starting water quality to a finished beer perception.

Carbonate additions should never be added unless needed in the mash. Adding carbonate to the kettle is counterproductive and if those additions raise the wort pH too high, the resulting hop character can be 'rough'. Do not take a water profile from a historic brewing city and assume it is what will make the best beer. The brewers from those cities often altered that starting water to better suit the style they were brewing. Blindly using 'city' profiles is sure to get you in trouble and produce less than stellar results.

Acidifying sparge water is typically a good idea, excepting that pH is not the criterion that should be used to assess when the acidification is adequate. The final alkalinity of the acidified water is what really counts. Using a acidification calculator like found in Bru'n Water is more appropriate than aiming for a pH value. The final pH value of properly acidified water could range between 5 and 6 depending upon the starting water alkalinity. Water that is naturally low in alkalinity (rain water, RO, distilled) do not need acidification at all.

If you are interested in learning more about brewing water chemistry, visit the Bru'n Water website and go to the Water Knowledge page.

Enjoy!

I have never heard anyone advocate putting carbonate anywhere but the kettle. Carbonate in the mash has the potential to completely trash your mash pH. The grain does a very good job of buffering the water so Calcium is generally all that is needed to help keep mash pH low...and maybe a little acid. If you through carbonate into your mash water you are asking for serious trouble unless you just want to spend your day fussing with water chemistry and your pH meter.
 
Great. Just great. I'm even more confused, then when I tried to start figuring out my water. I thought you adjust the total volume of water before it's used. And then brew with that water ,mash, sparge , whatever. Oh poop.
 
I have never heard anyone advocate putting carbonate anywhere but the kettle. Carbonate in the mash has the potential to completely trash your mash pH. The grain does a very good job of buffering the water so Calcium is generally all that is needed to help keep mash pH low...and maybe a little acid. If you through carbonate into your mash water you are asking for serious trouble unless you just want to spend your day fussing with water chemistry and your pH meter.

Ah! its so refreshing to read this!

Excessive alkalinity in either the mash or kettle is a sure method of ruining beer. I assume that Heli has one perspective of brewing water (his local water) and knows how to work with it. Unfortunately I've found that with a worldwide audience, there are actually other water characteristics that make it impossible to universally state what is mentioned above. There are plenty of places with very low alkalinity water that have to supply a measured dose of alkalinity to the mash to keep highly acidic grists from plunging the pH.

As for anyone advocating putting alkalinity in the kettle, please help me understand who those advocates are? I haven't seen it in print nor heard it from any other brewers. From my experience, there is NO reason to ever add alkalinity to the kettle. If the water used in mashing had the proper alkalinity to match the grist requirements and the mash pH fell within limit, there would never be a reason to push the kettle wort pH higher. There are definite hazards to wort pH falling outside a desirable range of about 5.2 to 5.6 in the kettle.

Heli, I look forward to learning something new! Thank you.
 
Great. Just great. I'm even more confused, then when I tried to start figuring out my water. I thought you adjust the total volume of water before it's used. And then brew with that water ,mash, sparge , whatever. Oh poop.

That is indeed the simplest way to do it and, AFAIK, the way most people do it but it is not the only way to do it. You might, for example, not have an HLT capable of holding the entire volume of water you will need for your brew day. I don't but I still treat all the water I use the same way. You might need to acidify your sparge water. You might want to add salts or acids to the kettle (I've never heard of adding chalk to it but who knows?). So don't get confused. For now just treat the whole volume and brew and consider the other techniques special or advanced or something.
 
I am intrigued by this statement. I'm guessing that it means you don't have a convenient way to get a sample at the output of the lauter tun. You must have a hydrometer.

Yes I have a hydrometer, of course!
I mean... I don't have a ''lauter tun''. I brew in a kettle with no valve at all, and I drain the liquid from the grains with a kind of big large strainer I made. I sparge on it, and it drains out the boiling kettle. That's why I can't really read the sparge runoffs. I can read what is in the kettle, that includes the first wort. I target the gravity I need before boil. In fact, I just calculate the amount of sparge water I need before, with grain absorbtion and evaporation data.

Not the best equipment/method, but it works, and the effeciency is somewhat low, but constant, so I'm ok with it.

I'm just waiting to have a bit more money to buy a real brewing kettle.
 
That's becoming a bit confusing. I'm not that savant in water chimestry. I just need simple and quick answer.

I know the Ca, Na, Mg, SO4 and Cl concentration does to the beer, and i adjust all my water with it.

1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.
 
1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.

I'll take a stab at answering these. I can't give you as much background as some of the other folks, but I'll tell you what I know and what I have experience with.

1) The easiest way I have found to do it is to add CaCO3 if you dough in and your mash pH is low. Like you said, this might be for a big dark beer.

2) 5.4 is what I shoot for, so right in the middle of your range. pH strips should get you close enough. I haven't tried the 5.2 stabilizer product because I would rather add a little bit of things I know. Stabilizers seem like adding a lot of extra junk to stabilize pH.

3) I never check or adjust boil pH. I figure if it was good enough for the mash it will work in the boil.

Here is a simple blog post on the practical use of Lactic Acid. It doesn't go into the science, just what works for me
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html
 
That's becoming a bit confusing. I'm not that savant in water chimestry. I just need simple and quick answer.

I know the Ca, Na, Mg, SO4 and Cl concentration does to the beer, and i adjust all my water with it.

1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.

At 140 ppm bicarbonate, its unlikely that you would HAVE to add more. Even for a stout, it might only require a bit more and there are ways around avoiding the need. The largest concern with a water with 140 ppm bicarb is reducing it for mashes that don't have enough acidity to neutralize the excess alkalinity by itself. Then acidification is useful. This level of bicarb was what I had to deal with in Tallahassee and you can get away with using a flavorful acid like Lactic. Bru'n Water has the calculators for figuring out how much to add. Chasing pH with acid additions and pH checks is no fun and typically ends up overdosing the beer until you gain experience. Bru'n Water enables you to get close the first time. Learning to properly acidify your mash and water makes the use of 5.2 stabilizer moot. You don't need it or want it in your beer.

Water pH is nearly meaningless in brewing. Its alkalinity information that is needed and you have that. The buffering power of the mash has much more effect than the pH of the water. Please note that a mash or wort pH greater than about 5.6 is pushing it. The mention of 5.8 is playing with fire since there can be less favorable flavor effects in the beer at that level.

With proper acidification of the mash to produce a mash pH in the 5.2 to 5.6 range AND acidification of the sparging water to reduce the alkalinity, the resulting wort pH in the kettle should be below 5.6. The boil will further reduce the wort pH.
 
That's becoming a bit confusing. I'm not that savant in water chimestry. I just need simple and quick answer.
Unfortunately it is a complicated subject. While there is basic science behind it there is a fair amount of misinformation out there. Some of this is being 'cleaned up' but not all of it. Because of the complexity people tend to grasp at straws which appear to simplify things but often they lead one astray. In addition to that while it is clear that the goal is 'good' beer there is disagreement as to what 'good' means.


1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

Roasted barley does not lower mash pH that much. In fact with even a quite dark stout made with all roast barley and your water you would probably need to add some acid. Black malt can be quite acidic but what is often not appreciated is that dark crystal malts can be too. If you use enough of these even 140 mg/L bicarbonate can be overcome. With lighter beers water chemistry can be pretty simple (see Primer). With these dark beers on the edge there is uncertainty about mash pH which can only be resolved with a pH measurement of the mash or a test mash.


2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

When we speak of mash pH we are referring to the pH of a sample measured at room temperature. There is no optimum but it should probably fall between 5.4 and 5.6. Base malts will, in distilled water, go to pH values between 5.6 and 5.8 depending on the color of the malt. 5.7 - 5.75 is a typical value. Bicarbonate, if which you have quite a bit, will pull the pH higher and the acids of dark malt will pull it lower. For most beers you will need to add acid. A better approach is to get rid of some or most of the alkalinity. You might find the Primer in the Stickies helpful. Calcium does have a pH lowering effect but it is small relative to that of acid. The 5.2 product you refer to is not very effective - you should not use it as it adds quite a bit of sodium and does not lower pH much.


3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.
Anything below 5.4 at the end of the boil should be OK. I wouldn't adjust even at that level but if it got up to 5.5 I'd probably add some acid to get it down to 5.4 or below. You probably don't want to have it below 5.0. Keep in mind that the higher the kettle pH the more bittering you will extract from the hops.
 
Thanks a lot! That helps. So I should add some acid for both mash and sparge water in my case. I'll use the bru n water calculators for that.

When you say.. The higher kettle PH, the more bittering I extract...Just to make shure that I read the PH range the same way as you.... 5.5 is Higher than 5.2..?

Other thing... It's a bit had to me since english ain't my first language.... but anyways.. what is the difference between PH and Alkalinity... For what I know... 7- is Acid, 7 is neutra, and 7+ is Alkalin. So Alkalinity ain't just a pole of the ph chart?
 
When you say.. The higher kettle PH, the more bittering I extract...Just to make shure that I read the PH range the same way as you.... 5.5 is Higher than 5.2..?
Correct/

Other thing... It's a bit had to me since english ain't my first language....
It is much better than my French

but anyways.. what is the difference between PH and Alkalinity... For what I know... 7- is Acid, 7 is neutra, and 7+ is Alkalin. So Alkalinity ain't just a pole of the ph chart?

No. It is unfortunate that the same word is used to mean quite different yet related things. Chemical species that exchange protons (hydrogen ions) form acid/base pairs. Of particular significance here are carbonic acid and bicarbonate ion:

H2CO3 <---> H+ + HCO3-

which says that carbonic acid, at the left, can give up a proton (H+) to become bicarbonate ion (on the right) and conversely (that's why the arrow has two heads). The pH is minus the logarithm of the hydrogen ion activity (which is essentially its concentration). The alkalinity is, in brewing water, essentially the concentration of bicarbonate ions. If you add another acid, say sulfuric acid to pure water (water with no bicarbonate) the hydrogen ions from the sulfuric acid will increase the hydrogen ion concentration in the water and the pH will lower. The alkalinity, however, will be close to 0 because there is no bicarbonate.

It is possible to have low pH water with high alkalinity and high pH water with low alkalinity but the two are not completely independent of one another. A full explanation is quite detailed.
 
Hey, AJ, I should probably ask this in the Primer thread, but water to grist ratio do you normally use?
 
I usually start in pretty thick to give me some leeway for infusions for temperature adjustment. About 1.25 quarts per pound.

Have you done any experiments comparing pH at different water to grist ratios? I tend to use a thinner mash (1.5+...grain size permitting) and I find Bru'n water estimates a lower pH for a given amount of a given amount of acid, and I find it to be a bit more accurate than EZ Water which tends to estimate a higher pH for a given amount of acid.
 
Have you done any experiments comparing pH at different water to grist ratios? I tend to use a thinner mash (1.5+...grain size permitting) and I find Bru'n water estimates a lower pH for a given amount of a given amount of acid, and I find it to be a bit more accurate than EZ Water which tends to estimate a higher pH for a given amount of acid.

Recognize that the comparison of the total effective alkalinity of the mash water (RA meq/L x liters of water) and the total acidity of the mash (meq/kg x kg of grain) is how Bru'n Water estimates mash pH. As you can see in this balance, changing the volume of water changes the total effective alkalinity added to the mash. Since the grain volume is a constant, you can see that there is a direct effect on mash pH. This phenomena can be exploited to help drive mash pH in a particular direction. Of course, this is only effective in a reasonable range of water/grist ratio.

I've wondered aloud if some of the effects reported in studies of water/grist ratio were partially a result of this mash pH effect. I don't know, but makes me scratch my head! I do tend to use a somewhat thinner target water/grist ratio in recent years based on findings by Troester. I'm typically 1.5 qts/lb now and used to be around 1.25. I agree with AJ that when infusions are required, starting thick is probably a requirement.
 
Thanks a lot AJ. I unsterdant better now. In french, there are two different terms for each sens of ''alkanility'', that's why I was confused.

It's more clear now. I'm going to get some lactic or phosphoric acid. But im brewing tomorrow, so I won't have acid yet. Bru n water estimations are that my mash would be around 5.8. I'd maybe put some ph5.2 to lower it a bit. You saif it was adding calcium too.. but I was already planning to have a bit of calcium to get right concentration, I might just skip it.
 
I bought some Malic Acid. I only found it in powder form, and Bru n Water calculations are based on liquid acid. How can I transpose it?
 
I bought some Malic Acid. I only found it in powder form, and Bru n Water calculations are based on liquid acid. How can I transpose it?

Why'd you buy malic acid? Malic acid is normally used in wines/meads, afaik.
 
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