Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Many thanks to saq and CSI in particular and also to Bottoms Up for his fantastic summary, although I'm not sure how much sense it will make to anyone who hasn't actually read any of the thread?
Cheers

Thank you. As I mentioned before, I feel it is still worthwhile to read the entire thread, especially the first 100 pages of messages. My notes were just a basic summary, initially for my own use, and without the fuller context, they may be a little hard to follow. Also as mentioned, I think it would be worthwhile if someone (especially saq or CSI) could publish a book about making Belgian clones, especially Westvleteren and Rochefort, based on the comments in this thread (and the Rochefort thread). The book, "Brew Like a Monk", is a good start with respect to the theory and general aspects, but doesn't get into all of the specific practical details, as this thread certainly does.
 
I used a variation of this recipe that is a bit higher ABV. OG of 1.104 , FG of around 1.022. I've had the batch sitting in the secondary for almost a month now and was wondering if I should add some fresh WLP530 to the batch a few days or just before bottling. I saw in the awesome summary by Bottoms_Up that a lot of people took yeast from the krousen. I did not do that, but would fresh yeast be just fine? Is it even necessary if it has been fermenting, primary and secondary for only two months?

Thanks.
 
I used a variation of this recipe that is a bit higher ABV. OG of 1.104 , FG of around 1.022. I've had the batch sitting in the secondary for almost a month now and was wondering if I should add some fresh WLP530 to the batch a few days or just before bottling. I saw in the awesome summary by Bottoms_Up that a lot of people took yeast from the krousen. I did not do that, but would fresh yeast be just fine? Is it even necessary if it has been fermenting, primary and secondary for only two months?

Thanks.

I would not take a chance at that gravity. My first batch I did not pitch more yeast but the gravity was well under.
 
I find getting this to at least 1.016 is pretty important - 1.012 or 1.010 is better still. Otherwise the sweetness remaining is too much for what is otherwise a perfectly balanced beer.

Most of my beers fully attenuate in 7-10 days...but not this one. This one takes 4 weeks. Every time I make it, I am on pins and needles because I am worried it just won't come all the way down. But it does.

Great beer.

(Thanks for all the great posts CSI.)
 
I would not take a chance at that gravity. My first batch I did not pitch more yeast but the gravity was well under.

Thanks! Do you suggest just tossing in a vial of fresh WLP530? Should I do it immediate before bottling, or a few days beforehand?
 
I find getting this to at least 1.016 is pretty important - 1.012 or 1.010 is better still. Otherwise the sweetness remaining is too much for what is otherwise a perfectly balanced beer.

Most of my beers fully attenuate in 7-10 days...but not this one. This one takes 4 weeks. Every time I make it, I am on pins and needles because I am worried it just won't come all the way down. But it does.

Great beer.

(Thanks for all the great posts CSI.)

I also would rather err on the dry side, but then again many of the popular beers of this style are too sweet for me.
 
Thanks! Do you suggest just tossing in a vial of fresh WLP530? Should I do it immediate before bottling, or a few days beforehand?

Do it the same time you add priming sugar. No need to stress the yeast before needed. I see on the candisyrup.com website that CSI recommends a 500 ml starter. It sounds like overkill but CSI is the one with experience here.
 
Whats wrong with using a brewPi or STC 1000 to control fermentation temperature?

Slightly different animals. The Oasis 150/160's are actual self-contained glycol micro-chillers with their own temp control and can be addressed through an RS-232 port for polling and control. They can be manually controlled (daily) through a simple control interface without any additional hardware/software. True PNP unit.

I was also fascinated to read the development of Candi Syrup through the pages of this thread, it sounded like a fun journey. By the way CSI what on earth do you do with all your test batches, you seem to have made an awful lot of beer?!
Cheers

Yep, true. We'll be on our 5th year in just a couple of months, (and we now distribute our products in Belgium). By each February we have accumulations of conditioning ales that are climbing the walls. Company partners and family/friends get the majority when the testing durations are over (4-6-12 months). We do keep a few samples of everything for long term taste testing. I have a 4 year old Westy small batch that has aged like a fine burgundy :). You can still taste the distinct flavor of Brewers Gold in them.
 
Do it the same time you add priming sugar. No need to stress the yeast before needed. I see on the candisyrup.com website that CSI recommends a 500 ml starter. It sounds like overkill but CSI is the one with experience here.

Yes, you're right. You could most likely get away with half that amount (250ml starter) if the OG was around 1.090. A lot of batches on the board did tend to go well over in OG and ABV so we bumped the priming pitch up.
 
+1 for a new thread.

I brewed a blend of the "new world" versions this weekend. Pitched Monday night into 63deg wort and am slowly ramping up to 80 by upping the temp every 12 hours (at 67 right now). It's fermenting away nicely and has filled up the cup my blow-off tube terminates in with a thick yeast "cake". It smells exactly like banana LaffyTaffy :ban: - is that normal?

I also just now pitched a pack of roeselare into the other 5 gallons I made. Anyone else done this? it'll be my first sour - I'm really looking forward to it (next Thanksgiving...)

Yes, that's normal.

Yes, SmokingHole has done some sour blends in the Westy 12 if memory serves. The method comes highly recommended for a hybrid ale. I haven't done it but man you guys are are really making me want to :)
 
I saw in the awesome summary by Bottoms_Up that a lot of people took yeast from the krousen. I did not do that, but would fresh yeast be just fine? Is it even necessary if it has been fermenting, primary and secondary for only two months?

Thanks.

If re-pitching to get the gravity down, it's a little like voodoo brewing but I have the Jamil Z. method written down somewhere if you want it re-posted, (Jamil Z. sent it to Mike personally, i.e. Mike is our senior partner-CEO). It does work but it's a LOT of yeast to move the gravity at this stage.

If just pitching for priming a fresh starter would work just fine but only for bottling.
 
I find getting this to at least 1.016 is pretty important - 1.012 or 1.010 is better still. Otherwise the sweetness remaining is too much for what is otherwise a perfectly balanced beer.

Most of my beers fully attenuate in 7-10 days...but not this one. This one takes 4 weeks. Every time I make it, I am on pins and needles because I am worried it just won't come all the way down. But it does.

Great beer.

(Thanks for all the great posts CSI.)

We've had Westmalle go to sleep many times and wake up two weeks later. I think it's a strain metabolic property related to the overall health of the yeast. Pure krausen for some reason will not do this. If I remember correctly the monks at St. Sixtus collect fresh krausen from Westmalle Abbey and drive it back the same day to pitch the Westvleteren 12. More on this in the next thread. We have a method for 'distilling' Westmalle back to near-perfect health, (wrong term but the apparatus looks like distilling).
 
Thanks! Do you suggest just tossing in a vial of fresh WLP530? Should I do it immediate before bottling, or a few days beforehand?

If trying to push the gravity at the latter end of primary with 1 vial, (80-90 Billion cells), it will have a near net zero affect.

If priming then 1 vial will be plenty to carb. However, if priming on a gravity as high as 1.022 you can create the risk of bottle explosions not to mention the cloying palate of the ale.
 
Based on input we'll compose a new Westy 12 thread with this thread distilled into it for a rapid up to speed brewing of this world class ale. Of course, this thread will most likely always be open.

Periodically, we'll post a jump entry here with a link to the new Westy 12 clone. The new thread will be up and linked up tomorrow PM EST.
 
If trying to push the gravity at the latter end of primary with 1 vial, (80-90 Billion cells), it will have a near net zero affect.

If priming then 1 vial will be plenty to carb. However, if priming on a gravity as high as 1.022 you can create the risk of bottle explosions not to mention the cloying palate of the ale.

I just checked it 10 minutes ago, and the gravity is stable at 1.022. The beer itself actually tastes pretty good. No fusels, a little sweet, but I wouldn't describe it as cloying. Getting it down a little bit more would be better, but I don't think it is necessary. I'd rather not have bottle bombs though. This is the first time I have ever tried brewing anything this high, so I really don't know what to do. I don't know if the yeast went to sleep and just stopped fermenting, or if the remaining suars are unfermentable. Someone else suggested I toss in some champagne yeast, but I really don't know what to do at this point.
 
I just checked it 10 minutes ago, and the gravity is stable at 1.022. The beer itself actually tastes pretty good. No fusels, a little sweet, but I wouldn't describe it as cloying. Getting it down a little bit more would be better, but I don't think it is necessary. I'd rather not have bottle bombs though. This is the first time I have ever tried brewing anything this high, so I really don't know what to do. I don't know if the yeast went to sleep and just stopped fermenting, or if the remaining sugars are unfermentable. Someone else suggested I toss in some champagne yeast, but I really don't know what to do at this point.

This is a treatable stall in gravity. In most instances it is due to yeast exhaustion.

With a high ABV and oxygen depletion re-pitching using a super-oxygenated yeast will work. You can use Champagne yeast packets. For 5 gallons at 1.022 I would suggest 3 packets or about 280-300 billion cells. Alternatively you can make another Westmalle starter of about 300 billion cells. Prior to pitching or creaming the dry yeast make sure and oxygenate it with pure O2 for about 60 seconds, let it sit for at least 6 hours for the yeast to absorb the oxygen, then pitch the entire amount. In about 6-10 days your gravity will come down.
 
At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?


This is a treatable stall in gravity. In most instances it is due to yeast exhaustion.

With a high ABV and oxygen depletion re-pitching using a super-oxygenated yeast will work. You can use Champagne yeast packets. For 5 gallons at 1.022 I would suggest 3 packets or about 280-300 billion cells. Alternatively you can make another Westmalle starter of about 300 billion cells. Prior to pitching or creaming the dry yeast make sure and oxygenate it with pure O2 for about 60 seconds, let it sit for at least 6 hours for the yeast to absorb the oxygen, then pitch the entire amount. In about 6-10 days your gravity will come down.
 
This is a treatable stall in gravity. In most instances it is due to yeast exhaustion.

With a high ABV and oxygen depletion re-pitching using a super-oxygenated yeast will work. You can use Champagne yeast packets. For 5 gallons at 1.022 I would suggest 3 packets or about 280-300 billion cells. Alternatively you can make another Westmalle starter of about 300 billion cells. Prior to pitching or creaming the dry yeast make sure and oxygenate it with pure O2 for about 60 seconds, let it sit for at least 6 hours for the yeast to absorb the oxygen, then pitch the entire amount. In about 6-10 days your gravity will come down.


Adding to this post, raising DO to a high level before initial pitch may be important. I use an oxygen tank from Home Depot or Lowes and and a diffusing wand for a couple of minutes before pitching. I think it makes a difference.


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At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?

Recently I took drastic measures when my slurry of Westmalle yeast showed no signs of activity after more than 24 hours. I made a 2 quart starter of WY3711 and pitched into the 4.5 gallons of 1.095 wort. (The only yeast I had available). 5 days later it's at 1.009.

My point being using another yeast may be more effective in getting the gravity down. Whether the flavor profile will be what you are seeking is another question.
 
I just checked it 10 minutes ago, and the gravity is stable at 1.022. The beer itself actually tastes pretty good. No fusels, a little sweet, but I wouldn't describe it as cloying. Getting it down a little bit more would be better, but I don't think it is necessary. I'd rather not have bottle bombs though. This is the first time I have ever tried brewing anything this high, so I really don't know what to do. I don't know if the yeast went to sleep and just stopped fermenting, or if the remaining suars are unfermentable. Someone else suggested I toss in some champagne yeast, but I really don't know what to do at this point.

I had a Belgian Golden Strong Ale stall around the same place. I tried all sorts of things, including champagne yeast. What did it finally was using WLP099. I think I made a 1.5L starter and pitched. Took just a couple of days to finish it out.

From research, most of the flavors and aromas from the yeast occur earlier. I think that at this stage, you can use any yeast with minimal change in character.
 
Recently I took drastic measures when my slurry of Westmalle yeast showed no signs of activity after more than 24 hours. I made a 2 quart starter of WY3711 and pitched into the 4.5 gallons of 1.095 wort. (The only yeast I had available). 5 days later it's at 1.009.

My point being using another yeast may be more effective in getting the gravity down. Whether the flavor profile will be what you are seeking is another question.

My question was more of a "as a general practice" question. Thanks for the input though!
 
This is a treatable stall in gravity. In most instances it is due to yeast exhaustion.

With a high ABV and oxygen depletion re-pitching using a super-oxygenated yeast will work. You can use Champagne yeast packets. For 5 gallons at 1.022 I would suggest 3 packets or about 280-300 billion cells. Alternatively you can make another Westmalle starter of about 300 billion cells. Prior to pitching or creaming the dry yeast make sure and oxygenate it with pure O2 for about 60 seconds, let it sit for at least 6 hours for the yeast to absorb the oxygen, then pitch the entire amount. In about 6-10 days your gravity will come down.

I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!
 
I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!

Are you fermenting in the upper ranges of temperature for that yeast? I don't see where you mentioned the fermentation temperature but it really helps attenuation if it is in the upper 70's low 80's.

I've gotten by without an aeration kit although I plan to get one.

And yes, chances are your beer will be worth it.
 
At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?

Probably very little. I might select Westmalle for a re-pitch but at this stage with a multi-week primary the esters are pretty well established. A champagne yeast will be very neutral.
 
Adding to this post, raising DO to a high level before initial pitch may be important. I use an oxygen tank from Home Depot or Lowes and and a diffusing wand for a couple of minutes before pitching. I think it makes a difference.


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Yep, agree. trying to get at least 10ppm is the norm for DO in a Belgian Dark Strong. We slow diffuse for 90-120 seconds through .05 micron diffuser. We built our own sight glass and apparatus but you can buy them already configured from More-Beer still I think.
 
At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?

Yes, you would still have to pitch a small amount for priming.
 
Recently I took drastic measures when my slurry of Westmalle yeast showed no signs of activity after more than 24 hours. I made a 2 quart starter of WY3711 and pitched into the 4.5 gallons of 1.095 wort. (The only yeast I had available). 5 days later it's at 1.009.

My point being using another yeast may be more effective in getting the gravity down. Whether the flavor profile will be what you are seeking is another question.

3711 is a monster :) It will definitely chew through gravity without much help.
 
I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!

Yes, it can get expensive. A stir-plate is indispensable for most Belgian ales.
 
At the board advice of SmokingHole a while back we began a series of tests for an oak barrel-aged variation of the Westy clone. We're using 5 gallon barrels for small batch testing. Since it's barrel-aged this may be off topic on this board so I'll only mention it once. So far the intermediate tests have been spectacular with the oak creating a silky ale while adding only a hint of oak tannin. We'll know more in about 3-4 months.

I just caught this. Right on! I am glad to see you changed your mind since March of this year - I am looking forward to the results. My next batch I intend to oak in both new medium toast and used bourbon barrels. Should be an excellent product.
 
I just caught this. Right on! I am glad to see you changed your mind since March of this year - I am looking forward to the results. My next batch I intend to oak in both new medium toast and used bourbon barrels. Should be an excellent product.


So would you primary in the barrels or rack after primary and do a long secondary in the barrels or...?



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First off I oak in glass with cubes. You can add the oak near the end of the secondary just before bottling/kegging or add less oak for the entire duration of the secondary.
 
Is there something off with this one? Its been in secondary for 2 months now. Its like a really thin layer on top and these bubbles. I took a sample before the pic and it tastes ok, strooong but ok.

image.jpg
 
I don't want to alarm and the picture is somewhat hard to see detail, but that milkiness and large bubbles look like infection to me. I could be 100% wrong and don't want to worry so hopefully someone else may be able to see it better.
 
That picture looks fine to me. I've seen my beers do that months later, a sign of still active yeast, which is good. Taste it and if it doesn't taste sour, you are good.
 
Is there something off with this one? Its been in secondary for 2 months now. Its like a really thin layer on top and these bubbles. I took a sample before the pic and it tastes ok, strooong but ok.

It's hard to tell from the pic but it does look like the early stages of pellicle formation that we see in some sours.
 
Hmm, Ive moved it to a warmer room now(About 21C). Maybe ill see some change within the next week or so. Im thinking that the bacteria would like a warmer climate. So if it is an unwanted bacteria ill soon now. It didnt taste sour now, only very strong alcohol...

Another question: Wouldnt it be hard for bacteria to live in the >10% abv environment? I would think that the beer would sanitize itself. Or maybe it takes a whole lot more alcohol to do that...
 
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