Beer needs more maltiness. Treat water?

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chase

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Location
Urbana, IL
I've been allgrain brewing for about 10 batches. I consistently have dark beers that taste thin and hollow. They lack the richness of good commercial beers. I don't think it's my recipes because I pretty much pull them straight out of Brewing Classic Styles. It only seems to be darker beers, say 12srm and darker.

I've pretty much gotten all the other variables of brewing down, and now I want to get a good handle on water treatment. I'm wondering if treating my water will help fill out my beers.

I only have part of my local water report. I guess I'm going to have to call the city to get more details, but this is what I have. What do you guys think?

Ca2+ 30ppm
Mg2+ 45ppm
Na+ 35ppm

sulphate and carbonate not tested.
 
How thick/thin is your mash?

From what I've read a thick mash (1 qt water : 1 lb grain) at higher temps (153-158F) will produce a maltier wort and a thin mash (1.5 qts water : 1 lb grain) at lower temps (148-153F) produces a more fermentable wort (making for a relatively dry beer, low FG).

If I'm wrong, please someone correct me.
 
I've been allgrain brewing for about 10 batches. I consistently have dark beers that taste thin and hollow. They lack the richness of good commercial beers. I don't think it's my recipes because I pretty much pull them straight out of Brewing Classic Styles. It only seems to be darker beers, say 12srm and darker.

I've pretty much gotten all the other variables of brewing down, and now I want to get a good handle on water treatment. I'm wondering if treating my water will help fill out my beers.

I only have part of my local water report. I guess I'm going to have to call the city to get more details, but this is what I have. What do you guys think?

Ca2+ 30ppm
Mg2+ 45ppm
Na+ 35ppm

sulphate and carbonate not tested.

I think you're right. You need to get a complete water report. Without knowing what's there to begin with you cannot know what adjustments may be needed or verify that some of your beer's problems do stem from the water.

The calcium is pretty modest but it is somewhat unusual that the magnesium has a higher ppm. Carbonate content and residual alkalinity are of topmost importance when determining adjustments, in particular for dark beers. So, in short, do what you have to do to get a complete water report.

Lack of "maltiness" could be from a number of factors. Telling us more about what styles and recipes you are brewing as well as the specific ingredients would be helpful in providing better answers to your problem. Not all beer styles are "malty" and some malts are lots "maltier" than others. Frankly, IMO, just because a recipe is in a book doesn't automatically mean it's good. There are plenty of lousy recipes out there so I don't think you can assume at this point that there is no possiblity of that being a factor in the problem. :mug:
 
It might be a pH issue. I might suggest 5.2 if you don't use it already.

I'd need to know more about your water to tell you for sure. But if it's low in bicarbonate that could effect both conversion, body and flavour profile when you brew dark beers, since higher SRM values can drop the pH.

The 5.2 is kind of a no-brainer, you really don't need to know your whole water profile. Maybe worth a shot.
 
Lack of "maltiness" could be from a number of factors. Telling us more about what styles and recipes you are brewing as well as the specific ingredients would be helpful in providing better answers to your problem.

Agreed... would be helpfull to know your grain bill, mash temp, yeast type, etc...

--LexusChris
 
It might be a pH issue. I might suggest 5.2 if you don't use it already.

I'd need to know more about your water to tell you for sure. But if it's low in bicarbonate that could effect both conversion, body and flavour profile when you brew dark beers, since higher SRM values can drop the pH.

The 5.2 is kind of a no-brainer, you really don't need to know your whole water profile. Maybe worth a shot.

5.2 only corrects the pH, not the ions that are responsible for the malty, fullness, hoppyness being brought out in a beer.

It could be your water, it also could be your mash temp or your recipe, or a combination of all of the above.
 
5.2 only corrects the pH, not the ions that are responsible for the malty, fullness, hoppyness being brought out in a beer.

Please read my full post. I am aware it only corrects the pH, which is why I proposed it as a solution to what I said might be a pH issue.
 
My Cl to SO4 ratio is just about 1:2.3. What does that mean to me? I also struggle with a similar problem in my darker beers, not having the fullness that the micros have.

Typically it lends itself towards a malty profile, not necessarily a fuller bodied beer - malty & fuller body are two separate things.

As for your water components, check THIS out.
 
Sorry I've been slow to reply. Work.

Here are my two most recent recipes that seem to be the thinnest.

Robust Porter
Size: 5.0 gal
Efficiency: 66.23%
Attenuation: 76.0%
Calories: 192.96 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.058 (1.048 - 1.065)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.012 - 1.016)
Color: 29.05 (22.0 - 35.0)
Alcohol: 5.79% (4.8% - 6.5%)
Bitterness: 40.1 (25.0 - 50.0)

Ingredients:
10.0 lb 2-Row Brewers Malt
1.0 lb Munich 10L Malt
.5 lb Caramel Malt 40L
.75 lb Chocolate Malt
.5 lb American Black Patent
.75 oz Northern Brewer (10.2%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1.0 oz Willamette (6.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15 min
.5 oz Willamette (6.4%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
.25 oz Northern Brewer (10.2%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
2 ea White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash IN - Liquor: 4.78 gal; Strike: 163.51 °F; Target: 153 °F
01:03:00 Sacc Rest - Rest: 60 min; Final: 152.5 °F
01:13:00 Sparge - Untitled Sparge: 2.91 gal sparge @ 200 °F, 10 min; Total Runoff: 6.35 gal

Classic Dry Irish Stout13-A Dry Stout
Size: 5.0 gal
Efficiency: 74.52%
Attenuation: 73.1%
Calories: 173.48 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.036 - 1.050)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.007 - 1.011)
Color: 30.49 (25.0 - 40.0)
Alcohol: 4.98% (4.0% - 5.0%)
Bitterness: 35.9 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
7.0 lb Maris Otter
1.0 lb Roasted Barley
2.0 lb Flaked Barley
2.0 oz East Kent Goldings (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2.0 ea White Labs WLP004 Irish Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash IN - Liquor: 2.5 gal; Strike: 131.51 °F; Target: 120 °F
01:03:00 Heat UP - Water: 1.87 gal; Temperature: 197.7 °F; Target: 150 °F
01:18:00 Sparge - Untitled Sparge: 3.01 gal sparge @ 168.0 °F, 15 min; Total Runoff: 6.34 gal

To address some of the comments:
I’m told that only Ca, Mg and Cl are the only things that tested. But I don’t buy that. I do know that on the water report that is published and sent to consumers, doesn’t list any of the things that are important to brewers. It only lists things people are afraid of (e.g. Pb, Hg, pesticides, etc).

Does anyone have a suggestion for a commercial water tester that I can send a sample to?

I don’t think that I am having mash pH issues. I typically have to adjust my brewing water with a 1tsp gypsum. That usually gets the pH into the 5 range.

Any other thoughts?
 
how does pH effect maltyness?

pH effects many things. It can be very hard to get the desired beer without a proper pH. If it's too low you can get a acidic or sharp character that will counter the malt, body, and those sweeter notes.

pH can also effect the conversion, which can in turn cause many problems. In combination with other problems (i.e high sulfate to chloride ratio) it could affect maltiness. I'm not sure, but it's a thought.

It's logical that pH could off if he's only having issues with higher SRM beers.

I recommend he tries 5.2 or at the very least tests his pH on these beers next time her brews. It might not be his issue here, but without a full water report it's really hard to know a lot more. That said, ensuring accurate pH is a good idea regardless.
 
I don’t think that I am having mash pH issues. I typically have to adjust my brewing water with a 1tsp gypsum. That usually gets the pH into the 5 range.

Fair enough. As long as your measuring it that's fine.

I don't know where you could get a better water test though.
 
It looks to me that you are mashing a slight bit lower than I normally do. If you are aiming at 151 and 153, then try for 156 instead. That will help you out to get a better malt profile.

Try out WLP002 or Safale S-04 instead. You will see a big difference.
 
Sorry I've been slow to reply. Work.

Here are my two most recent recipes that seem to be the thinnest.





To address some of the comments:
I’m told that only Ca, Mg and Cl are the only things that tested. But I don’t buy that. I do know that on the water report that is published and sent to consumers, doesn’t list any of the things that are important to brewers. It only lists things people are afraid of (e.g. Pb, Hg, pesticides, etc).

Does anyone have a suggestion for a commercial water tester that I can send a sample to?

I don’t think that I am having mash pH issues. I typically have to adjust my brewing water with a 1tsp gypsum. That usually gets the pH into the 5 range.

Any other thoughts?

Well I just realized that you're in Urbana, so you are in luck. I have a water report for Urbana... I live there 9 months out of the year. (Are you a BUZZ member?)
All in ppm
Na: 39
K: 2
Ca: 10
Mg: 11
NO3: 0
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 71
SO4: 0
Cl: 9
CO3: 22
HCO3: 166
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 173
pH: 9.1

Now as to your water being an issue with dark beers... well I'm sorry it's not. I've brewed many fine dark beers with our tap water and so have a lot of local brewers. In fact we have excellent water to use or build.


pH effects many things. It can be very hard to get the desired beer without a proper pH. If it's too low you can get a acidic or sharp character that will counter the malt, body, and those sweeter notes.

I'd buy this. I don't think poor conversion alone would effect body and that's why I was wondering how pH would effect it.
 
Well I just realized that you're in Urbana, so you are in luck. I have a water report for Urbana... I live there 9 months out of the year. (Are you a BUZZ member?)
All in ppm
Na: 39
K: 2
Ca: 10
Mg: 11
NO3: 0
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 71
SO4: 0
Cl: 9
CO3: 22
HCO3: 166
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 173
pH: 9.1

Now as to your water being an issue with dark beers... well I'm sorry it's not. I've brewed many fine dark beers with our tap water and so have a lot of local brewers. In fact we have excellent water to use or build.

Wow. That's great! How come my Ca and Mg levels are so different than yours? Where are these numbers from?

I've been told that we have great brewing water, but when people taste my beers they say that I need to add some CaCl2 to help it out. In fact, at the last BUZZ meeting, I took the stout listed above and a member who I think makes excellent beers gave me that suggestion.

But I guess that still leaves me with questions about my beer. The next BUZZ meeting is next week. I'll be taking a porter and a RIS to that meeting. I'll see what people say. If you'll be there, let me know.
 
Well I just realized that you're in Urbana, so you are in luck. I have a water report for Urbana... I live there 9 months out of the year. (Are you a BUZZ member?)
All in ppm
Na: 39
K: 2
Ca: 10
Mg: 11
NO3: 0
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 71
SO4: 0
Cl: 9
CO3: 22
HCO3: 166
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 173
pH: 9.1

Now as to your water being an issue with dark beers... well I'm sorry it's not. I've brewed many fine dark beers with our tap water and so have a lot of local brewers. In fact we have excellent water to use or build.




I'd buy this. I don't think poor conversion alone would effect body and that's why I was wondering how pH would effect it.

Mine is from a member of buzz that sent his water to ward labs to be tested. We both live in Urbana, so I figured it's be the same.

I will not be at the next meeting, but I'll be there in September.
 

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