Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

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Thanks again Denny. I remembered to fully open the faucet whilst draining the wort after sach rest and didn't get a stuck drain when mashing an OG of 1.095. :rockin:

I got stuck sparges on previous batches with high OG.
 
First post here. I have to first say, "Thank you!" to all the pros and long term residents here! Though I've never posted till now, that's a good sign that most the information is being handled and taken care of with a simple search.

After reading this whole thread, I suspect crush to be a potential problem with efficiency. I crush at my LHBS and don't have the ability to adjust. A thought I am having is in just running my grist through the mill a second time. Would this help, or are the grains already crushed to the spec of the mill and will more so just fall through the mill without being broken down further? Being a noob, I really don't want to feel like an ass at the LHBS, lol.
 
BudnBrew said:
First post here. I have to first say, "Thank you!" to all the pros and long term residents here! Though I've never posted till now, that's a good sign that most the information is being handled and taken care of with a simple search.

After reading this whole thread, I suspect crush to be a potential problem with efficiency. I crush at my LHBS and don't have the ability to adjust. A thought I am having is in just running my grist through the mill a second time. Would this help, or are the grains already crushed to the spec of the mill and will more so just fall through the mill without being broken down further? Being a noob, I really don't want to feel like an ass at the LHBS, lol.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what you should do!
 
Excellent! Thanks for the quick response, Denny! Twice through the LHBS mill it is. I also think I will steer away from the traditional 1.25 qt/lb and settle more at 1.5 qt/lb of strike water; or should I really go more towards 1.75 qt/lb?

Second, quick, question while it's on my mind. I understand that, MOST times, 5.2 stabilizer is ineffective, as briefly mentioned in this thread, and to more extent elsewhere. Then, what times IS it effective? Would I be correct in assuming it would be effective when using straight Reverse Osmosis water in a recipe such as a cream ale, a golden ale, or the likes, where you have little to no residual alkalinity in the water and little to no high-kilned or roasted malts in the grist to drive down pH?

Thanks again!
 
Use whatever mash ratio works best for you. Do some experimentation..the worst that will happen is that you'll make beer! I typically start around 1.65 qt./lb. and then adjust up or down a bit to get close to equal runnings from my mash and sparge. Exactly equal doesn't matter much. I've found that as long they;re within a gal. or so the effect on efficiency os so small that it's unimportant.

The biggest problem with 5.2 IMO isn't the lack of effectiveness, although that's troubling. The biggest problem is the load of sodium it adds to your beer and the negative effects on flavor from that. IMO, using 5.2 is NEVER a good idea.
 
Denny said:
Use whatever mash ratio works best for you. Do some experimentation..the worst that will happen is that you'll make beer! I typically start around 1.65 qt./lb. and then adjust up or down a bit to get close to equal runnings from my mash and sparge. Exactly equal doesn't matter much. I've found that as long they;re within a gal. or so the effect on efficiency os so small that it's unimportant.
Click to expand...

Following this advice ^^^ and milling my own grains brought my efficiencies from 70-75% up to 80-85%. Much thanks to Denny and his guidance both here and on the NB forum.

:mug:
 
Just wanted to drop in real quick and give a HUGE thank you to Denny! Brewed yesterday and following your advice gave me a 10 point increase in efficiency from 65 to 75%! It's no 80+, but I can be very happy with 75. Cresting over 80 will then make me ecstatic! I'm sure there are some other things I can and will tweak over time to get me there. Thanks a ton, Denny!!!:mug:
 
Denny said:
The biggest problem with 5.2 IMO isn't the lack of effectiveness, although that's troubling. The biggest problem is the load of sodium it adds to your beer and the negative effects on flavor from that. IMO, using 5.2 is NEVER a good idea.
Click to expand...


Yep! Used 5.2 for my last batch out of curiosity...my IPA tastes like a gose
 
Such a helpful thread. I did my first two AG brews about a week ago, and while I didn't do well efficiency-wise, I learned a lot. This thread really filled in the gaps, can't wait to try again!
 
Rjppunk said:
Such a helpful thread. I did my first two AG brews about a week ago, and while I didn't do well efficiency-wise, I learned a lot. This thread really filled in the gaps, can't wait to try again!
Click to expand...

Efficiency is almost always related to crush. Crush til you're scared!
 
one of the things that constantly gets over looked is sparge ph which can make or break a good beer, if your going to all the trouble of getting the best efficiency, you should be getting the best flavor out of your beer first

Lets say my water is 7ph and the mash ph is 5.2 with or out without help from filters or additives but I have 7 ph water, well when you sparge the grain no longer helps bring the ph down and your extensive sparging and striving for the best Efficiency really doesn't matter if the sparge adds off flavors and your beer tastes mediocre
 
My LHBS staff are a bit too snotty and pretentious for me to spend money there so I've been getting my grains crushed from morebeer. Not much choice since a mill isn't in my sights yet. Read about 20 pages of this and I think I can dial in my temp control a lot better than I was, also this time I need to remember to do better at stirring grains for the sparge. Once I get more comfortable with the process then ill work towards milling my own.
 
Ozarks_Mountian_Brew said:
one of the things that constantly gets over looked is sparge ph which can make or break a good beer, if your going to all the trouble of getting the best efficiency, you should be getting the best flavor out of your beer first

Lets say my water is 7ph and the mash ph is 5.2 with or out without help from filters or additives but I have 7 ph water, well when you sparge the grain no longer helps bring the ph down and your extensive sparging and striving for the best Efficiency really doesn't matter if the sparge adds off flavors and your beer tastes mediocre
Click to expand...

When you batch sparge, unless you have really alkaline water, the sparge pH will pretty much take care of itself without adjustment, assuming your mash pH was correct. The case you cite is what happens in fly sparging.
 
yes I agree which is true sparging in my opinion, to me it seems that batch sparging is really just rinsing of all sugar from the out side of the grain which "I do now" with my recirculating rims system but a real 1 hour slow sparge pulls all sugar from within the grain as well as out side but can damage the hull if done wrong and again cause off flavors, but that would get "the best efficiency" so to speek.

in my beers all I care out "does it taste good" cold or warm, does it give me a buzz :)
 
Ozarks_Mountian_Brew said:
yes I agree which is true sparging in my opinion, to me it seems that batch sparging is really just rinsing of all sugar from the out side of the grain which "I do now" with my recirculating rims system but a real 1 hour slow sparge pulls all sugar from within the grain as well as out side but can damage the hull if done wrong and again cause off flavors, but that would get "the best efficiency" so to speek.

in my beers all I care out "does it taste good" cold or warm, does it give me a buzz :)
Click to expand...

Actually, fly sparging rinses the grains. Batch sparging gets the sugar into solution in the liquid and drains it.
 
Read the full thread, great info but I noticed some conflicting information. Some people stir at the end of the mash, then vorlauf, drain and sparge while others don't stir at end of mash. Is there a gain in stirring at the end of the mash? Does it make any difference? Or is it counterproductive?
 
hio3791 said:
Read the full thread, great info but I noticed some conflicting information. Some people stir at the end of the mash, then vorlauf, drain and sparge while others don't stir at end of mash. Is there a gain in stirring at the end of the mash? Does it make any difference? Or is it counterproductive?
Click to expand...

Yes, stir like your life depends on it...you want to get all of the sugars in to solution
 
there is a point that I think Ive stirred too much, when the grain gets very soft near the end of the mash, I think Ive done this, also scraping it across the bottom false bottom.

Both cuts or mashes the grain and can put out half dissolved husk which will give a definite flavor and cloudiness
 
hio3791 said:
Read the full thread, great info but I noticed some conflicting information. Some people stir at the end of the mash, then vorlauf, drain and sparge while others don't stir at end of mash. Is there a gain in stirring at the end of the mash? Does it make any difference? Or is it counterproductive?
Click to expand...

I have done much experimentation with this and found no benefit from stirring before mash runoff. OTOH, stirring before sparge runoff seems to make a big difference.
 
Apparently I've been missed by HBT forum so might as well return post here.

Haven't measured the effects of stirring (or not stirring) before run off but when in doubt - stir. That said - still knocking out upper 80s % extraction efficiency thanks to tips from Mr. Denny. Was able to "coax" the extraction to yield an OG of 1.085 in last IPA.
 
Followed the great tips here. I cranked down on the mill, stirred like it owed me money and sparged at 170. Made an IPA last night, expecting 1.064 and got 1.072.
 
I'm still new in the realm of all-grain brewing - having muddled my way through a couple of batches.

1) How do you even measure efficiency? Is it OG delivered versus OG expected? If you're following a proven recipe, I get that idea, but if you're not and you're inventing (which is what I love to do) then ... ??

2) Mash Out versus sparge water: Ok, so I had a mash that was 14 quarts of water - I used 170 degree strike water and nailed my desired 152 mash temp. So then my recipe called for sparging at 170, and mashout at 170. Well to get 4 gallons of water up to 170, my rough guess says I need to add a gallon of near boiling water to do that - I was concerned that by doing so, I'd get a ton of tannins - so I started my sparge with 180 degree water which I let air cool to 170 as the sparge continues. I have no idea how I did on efficiency (see #1 above) but I do know that my OG was within a point or two of what the recipe said to expect (the Fat Tire clone from the recipe forum here) so I must have done something right. What SHOULD I have done?

There's a thousand more questions of course but let's start there.
 
StewMakesBrew said:
I'm still new in the realm of all-grain brewing - having muddled my way through a couple of batches.

1) How do you even measure efficiency? Is it OG delivered versus OG expected? If you're following a proven recipe, I get that idea, but if you're not and you're inventing (which is what I love to do) then ... ??

2) Mash Out versus sparge water: Ok, so I had a mash that was 14 quarts of water - I used 170 degree strike water and nailed my desired 152 mash temp. So then my recipe called for sparging at 170, and mashout at 170. Well to get 4 gallons of water up to 170, my rough guess says I need to add a gallon of near boiling water to do that - I was concerned that by doing so, I'd get a ton of tannins - so I started my sparge with 180 degree water which I let air cool to 170 as the sparge continues. I have no idea how I did on efficiency (see #1 above) but I do know that my OG was within a point or two of what the recipe said to expect (the Fat Tire clone from the recipe forum here) so I must have done something right. What SHOULD I have done?

There's a thousand more questions of course but let's start there.
Click to expand...
Check this out for an explanation of the different efficiencies: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/.

If you are not fly sparging, there is no technical reason to do a mash-out. The purpose of a mash-out is to denature the amylase enzymes prior to the long fly sparge, so that they don't continue working to make the wort too fermentable during the extra time (45 min to more than an hour.) You should be able to complete a batch sparge in 10 - 15 minutes, and you can start heating your first runnings to a boil immediately after the run off. This will denature the enzymes just as fast as a mash-out.

Some brewers report efficiency increases from doing a mash-out. They only see this because they had incomplete starch to sugar conversion during the time alloted for the mash. They could get the same result by mashing longer, and/or crushing their grain finer. You can quantitatively test your mash for completeness of conversion by measuring the SG of the wort in the MLT and comparing to the table found here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency. This test is more precise than the qualitative iodine test.

You don't have to sparge with hot water if your conversion is complete before you start sparging (ref: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/.) If your conversion is incomplete, then hot sparge water will effectively extend the mash time a little, so you get some more conversion. Again, you are better off taking action to get complete conversion before proceeding to the sparge.

Sugar solubility is not an issue. There is no solid sugar to be dissolved during the sparge, since the sugar is all in solution when it is created. The solubility of maltose in water at mash temps is about 66.7 % by weight (2 lb of maltose will dissolve in 1 lb of water, ref:http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Solubility-Of-Maltose-In-Water-gillis.html), and this is equivalent to an SG in excess of 1.300.

Adding boiling water to your mash to raise the temperature will not extract tannins if your mash pH is in the correct range (5.3 - 5.7) and your added water is not overly alkaline. The mash pH has to be raised to a pH of about 6 to extract tannins, even at boiling temperatures. Overly alkaline sparge water can raise the pH of the mash too much, but alkalinity can be reduced by adding acid (lactic, phosphoric, etc.) to it to bring the pH below 5.8.

Brew on :mug:
 
OK real new to all grain! I just did my first batch, well in the middle of it! I made my own mash tun from an old cooler and used 1/2 inch CPVC with a bunch of slots cut in for flow. I tested it for leaks and it flowed fairly fast, it would fill the 1/2" vinyl tube. But with the grain in not so much but much slower than I expected. I am getting about 1.75 gallons after 30 minutes, looking for 6 gallon pre boil I am looking at about 3 hours of draining. Reading the posts here batch sparging is quicker. I assume I can just add more slots to my tubes but is there a flow rate to shoot for? 3 gallons in 30 minutes for 2 sparges?
 
Foghorn said:
OK real new to all grain! I just did my first batch, well in the middle of it! I made my own mash tun from an old cooler and used 1/2 inch CPVC with a bunch of slots cut in for flow. I tested it for leaks and it flowed fairly fast, it would fill the 1/2" vinyl tube. But with the grain in not so much but much slower than I expected. I am getting about 1.75 gallons after 30 minutes, looking for 6 gallon pre boil I am looking at about 3 hours of draining. Reading the posts here batch sparging is quicker. I assume I can just add more slots to my tubes but is there a flow rate to shoot for? 3 gallons in 30 minutes for 2 sparges?
Click to expand...

The flow rate to shoot for is what works for you. My experience is that a manifold like you made is more prone to sticking and likely to have a lower flow rate than the braid I use. But that doesn't mean it's a bad choice. It could be that you need more slots in it...hard to say. To get 7.5-8 gal. preboil in the kettle takes me 15 min. from the time I start the mash runoff til the time I finish the sparge runoff. Fast runoff in batch sparging is an advantage, though, not a requirement. Yours, however, does seem painfully slow. I'd recommend you either rework your manifold or try a braid.
 
I will have to either add slots or redesign the manifold. If you are getting 7.5-8 in 10-15 minutes I need to do something! I ended up waiting for 2 hours and got 5.5 gallons. To top it off after all that time still only had a 55% efficiency. So I do think I need a bit of a redesign. Thanks for the thoughts!
 
Foghorn said:
I will have to either add slots or redesign the manifold. If you are getting 7.5-8 in 10-15 minutes I need to do something! I ended up waiting for 2 hours and got 5.5 gallons. To top it off after all that time still only had a 55% efficiency. So I do think I need a bit of a redesign. Thanks for the thoughts!
Click to expand...

Have you looked at www.dennybrew.com? With that setup, besides the fast runoff, I average about 83% efficiency. Of course, that's due to more than just the equipment.
 
Foghorn said:
I will have to either add slots or redesign the manifold. If you are getting 7.5-8 in 10-15 minutes I need to do something! I ended up waiting for 2 hours and got 5.5 gallons. To top it off after all that time still only had a 55% efficiency. So I do think I need a bit of a redesign. Thanks for the thoughts!
Click to expand...

Efficiency on homebrew scale is usually more related to the fineness of the grist. The coarser, the longer it takes for the water to gelatinize it and for enzymes to get to the starch matrix. Since we don't continuously stir the mash a finer grist will convert faster.

Here's my manifold (shown upside down) in a 52 qt cooler. Efficiency 80-85% and drains fully in 10-15 minutes unless there's a boatload of wheat or rye in it.
I thought it would need more slots, but it works fine as it. The width of the slots is a tad under 1/8". The depth not quite halfway through the tubes.

CPVCManifold_1200_zpsce75c34e.jpg
 
Is that 1/2 inch? My manifold consists of a single T and about 8" of pipe each side. Looks like to little flow options. I guess I need more pipe as well! I think maybe switching the sides from CPVC to the braid on each side would increase my flow. I see a lot of single braids or multiple pipes. So I think the broad would be easier to clean.

IMG_3598.jpg
 
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Foghorn said:
Is that 1/2 inch? My manifold consists of a single T and about 8" of pipe each side. Looks like to little flow options. I guess I need more pipe as well! I think maybe switching the sides from CPVC to the braid on each side would increase my flow. I see a lot of single braids or multiple pipes. So I think the broad would be easier to clean.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's 1/2" cpvc. I spent under $10 for all the fittings and the 10' of pipe.

Braids tend to collapse or get flattened when whacked by the mash paddle. Some people put a copper or stainless reinforcement coil inside the braid to keep it sturdier, round and open.

I like the cpvc for ease of cleaning, rigidness, and it won't come loose, as long as you don't lift it. It's wedged between the walls, which is key. No glue, all friction fit.
 
IslandLizard said:
Yes, that's 1/2" cpvc. I spent under $10 for all the fittings and the 10' of pipe.

Braids tend to collapse or get flattened when whacked by the mash paddle. Some people put a copper or stainless reinforcement coil inside the braid to keep it sturdier, round and open.

I like the cpvc for ease of cleaning, rigidness, and it won't come loose, as long as you don't lift it. It's wedged between the walls, which is key. No glue, all friction fit.
Click to expand...

I have used the same unreinforced braid for 18 years and 493 batches. The key is to get the right braid. I recommend Lasco brand (part number 10-0121 or 10-0321). I get them at a local hardware store, but they're also available on Amazon. Having used both the braid and a manifold, I prefer the braid.
 
doug293cz said:
Check this out for an explanation of the different efficiencies: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/.

If you are not fly sparging, there is no technical reason to do a mash-out. The purpose of a mash-out is to denature the amylase enzymes prior to the long fly sparge, so that they don't continue working to make the wort too fermentable during the extra time (45 min to more than an hour.) You should be able to complete a batch sparge in 10 - 15 minutes, and you can start heating your first runnings to a boil immediately after the run off. This will denature the enzymes just as fast as a mash-out.

Some brewers report efficiency increases from doing a mash-out. They only see this because they had incomplete starch to sugar conversion during the time alloted for the mash. They could get the same result by mashing longer, and/or crushing their grain finer. You can quantitatively test your mash for completeness of conversion by measuring the SG of the wort in the MLT and comparing to the table found here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency. This test is more precise than the qualitative iodine test.

You don't have to sparge with hot water if your conversion is complete before you start sparging (ref: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/.) If your conversion is incomplete, then hot sparge water will effectively extend the mash time a little, so you get some more conversion. Again, you are better off taking action to get complete conversion before proceeding to the sparge.

Sugar solubility is not an issue. There is no solid sugar to be dissolved during the sparge, since the sugar is all in solution when it is created. The solubility of maltose in water at mash temps is about 66.7 % by weight (2 lb of maltose will dissolve in 1 lb of water, ref:http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Solubility-Of-Maltose-In-Water-gillis.html), and this is equivalent to an SG in excess of 1.300.

Adding boiling water to your mash to raise the temperature will not extract tannins if your mash pH is in the correct range (5.3 - 5.7) and your added water is not overly alkaline. The mash pH has to be raised to a pH of about 6 to extract tannins, even at boiling temperatures. Overly alkaline sparge water can raise the pH of the mash too much, but alkalinity can be reduced by adding acid (lactic, phosphoric, etc.) to it to bring the pH below 5.8.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Outstanding answer - thanks!! Brewing on.
 
Hi all

I am looking to convert this 3 gallon rubbermaid (given to me for free)
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Rubbermaid-Home-0824-4857-Rubbermaid-Water-Cooler-3-Gallon-FG168/21799069

into my first all grain mash tun

Was planning on buying a false bottom when I started seeing these bazookas
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RI8R24O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The diameter of the bottom is about 9.5 so this will not go across the whole thing..

Will this be a problem?

Planning on a simple setup similar to this
https://www.google.com/search?q=baz...bazooka+screen+mash+tun&imgrc=GDRaSMUSk40V4M:


Any issues you think Ill run into?
 
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