Trying to find one of P-J's old layouts

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bdjohns1

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P-J,

I'm trying to locate one of your older wiring diagrams - but apparently I can no longer just browse the index of your images folder. I've been lurking for a while in "sponge mode" just soaking up ideas.

I'm looking for one of your existing diagrams that basically covered a scenario like this just to sanity check myself - I don't want you to go to the extra time to re-draw anything. If I can't assimilate the concepts from your different diagrams, I figure I shouldn't be playing. :D

Supplied from 50A GFCI spa panel, but upstream breaker is 30A, so that's the real limiter.
2x 4500 or 5500 W elements (HLT and BK)
A 3-pos selector switch (2x NO blocks, maintained L/R, center off) to enable only one element - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SIEMENS-Selector-Switch-6FPJ8
The selector switch is 120V, going to the coils on a couple of DPDT relays - so that the element not in use is 100% cut off - the SSR output leg goes to one side of the relay, and the other hot line is on the other side.
40A SSRs driven off separate Auberins PIDs
2x March 120V pumps
120V SPST toggles for the pumps and PID power.

Here's the relays I'm using - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Relay-1EJG7 - rated for 30A resistive load up to 277VAC.

If I remember right, the correct way to do this is to put the relay between the SSR and the element for the hot leg supplied from the SSR - basically, the same design you do using Auber's contactors.
 
Is it this one?

Auberin-wiring1-a4-5500w-30a-e-stop.jpg
 
Not quite on either of those. I've got two PIDs, two SSRs, and two relays. I want to ensure that regardless of what the PIDs are doing, only one element is powered based on the switch setting.
 
Not quite on either of those. I've got two PIDs, two SSRs, and two relays. I want to ensure that regardless of what the PIDs are doing, only one element is powered based on the switch setting.
Describe your desired system a little more in detail. Perhaps I can help.

P-J

BTW: Thanks guys for following & useing some of my diagrams.
 
PJ, I think those diagrams help people more than you will ever know. I've learned a ton looking over them.
 
Describe your desired system a little more in detail. Perhaps I can help.
P-J

Awesome. Here's the concise version:

Main feed from my panel is a 40A, 8-gauge to spa panel with 50A GFCI, 8-gauge to control panel.

System design:

10-gallon HLT with HERMS coil, 5500W element.
10-gallon cooler MLT
15-gallon brew kettle, 5500W element

Auber 2352 PIDs, Auber 40A SSRs going to both the HLT and BK. Separate dryer plugs for each one.

2 March pumps with run of the mill SPST toggles for power. Another run of the mill SPST for power to the PIDs.

The power relays and element selector switch are as described above in my OP - just want to ensure that only one element can draw power at a time. I figured that for all practical effects, I could just use one of your 2-PID designs with contactors, since the relays are 120V to actuate, and can handle 30A resistive loads at >240V.
 
Ok, so I spent a little more time flexing my search muscles, and I'm pretty sure that with a couple of minor tweaks, WAORGANY's diagram is basically right for me:

Auberin-wiring1-a11a-SWA-2451-5500w-s.jpg


The major difference in design is that I should only have one element drawing power at any given time based on my 40A upstream breaker and wire gauge used. So, illuminated switches 1/2 on the above diagram get replaced with the 3-position 2NO selector switch. Feed from Line 1 comes into one end of each NO block. NO Block on the left goes up to the coil on the relay for the HLT, NO block on the right goes to the BK.

Down on the PID front, no alarm circuitry needed.

Pump/PID power, I'm just skipping the circuitry needed associated with lighting up buttons.

(note: I oversized myself to 40A even though this design could work on 30A. What I'm not covering (or asking to draw up) is that if I ever decide to play with RIMS instead, I should have enough current headroom to allow a lower wattage element for the RIMS tube. I'm actually installing a 3rd PID controller which for now will just give me temperature in the MLT discharge line. Plus, I added a 110V breaker in my spa panel so I can have an accessory outlet to plug in an overhead fluorescent light - the part of the basement I'm setting up in isn't well-lit right now.

I'm hoping that my panel comes out looking nice - I'm on the leadership team of a cheese plant here in WI, and I do a lot of process improvement work, which means I spend a lot of quality time with our PLC guys and electrical technicians. It's not only about the beer-making for me - knowing this stuff a little better helps me work with them more effectively - I've been chatting with one of our electricians on some of this stuff to get ideas as well. At work, we're a bit more hardcore. I'd guesstimate we've got a few dozen A/B PLCs all over the plant, FactoryTalk, etc. :rockin: Of all of that automation, I have 3 rungs of ladder code in production to my name :D

If I were allowed to take pictures and share publically, I could probably make a lot of people around here drool over the massive control cabinets, HMI stations, etc.
 
bdjohns1,

You presented an interesting challange with your 40A feed. This changed the entire relm of the brewery controller set up. With a 30A feed, you do not need breakers within the controller. 40A's requires breakers within the control panel.

I have never drawn a diagram for a setup using multi PIDs with a power input less than 50A.

Now you challenged me.!!! ??? AND you want simple toggle switches???

Ok.. You are on. Switch #1 is the key. It is a Double pole - Double throw - Center off - switch. The breakers must be placed due to the 40A power feed. (30A feed? you do not need the breakers. (But... updates to another scene with this becomes very easy.)

Click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

 
I try to keep things interesting. :D

Hmm...in that case, the 30A breaker in my main panel is looking like an easier option, and screw the RIMS. Thanks much!!
 
Now, what are the advantages of having 2 PIDs, SSR, contactors when one can only fire one element at a time?
 
I try to keep things interesting. :D

Hmm...in that case, the 30A breaker in my main panel is looking like an easier option, and screw the RIMS. Thanks much!!

Welcome...

I just threw away a couple of hours designing a drawing for you.
No problem... I'm familiar with that ball of crap on this forum...
Good luck on your build...
 
Nothing - except added $$$'s.

how else would you be able to use one PID for the hlt and boil kettle? just unplug the temp sensor and element cables from the system and plug in ones that are on your bk?
 
how else would you be able to use one PID for the hlt and boil kettle? just unplug the temp sensor and element cables from the system and plug in ones that are on your bk?

That was my plan, well switching between HLT & MLT (not planing for one in the BK). But now I wonder what would be a good switch to do this?
 
Now, what are the advantages of having 2 PIDs, SSR, contactors when one can only fire one element at a time?

Well, I figure that I'd want to know both the temperature of my MLT and my HLT during mash, for starters.

During cooling, I could be firing up the HLT to heat up some water for cleaning while I run the wort out through a cooling plate.
 
Welcome...

I just threw away a couple of hours designing a drawing for you.
No problem... I'm familiar with that ball of crap on this forum...
Good luck on your build...

Sweet 8 pound 6 ounce baby Jesus.

Quoting myself in the OP (emphasis added):

bdjohns1 said:
I'm looking for one of your existing diagrams that basically covered a scenario like this just to sanity check myself - I don't want you to go to the extra time to re-draw anything.

I appreciate that you took the time to provide feedback on my design and the additional safety concerns/requirements associated with going up to 40A on the supply. That was value-added. Getting bent out of shape over the time I didn't ask you to spend though? Come on. Lose the Messiah complex. Minus the photos, that drawing is 20-30 minutes in Visio from scratch, tops. Saying you "wasted two hours" on it when you already had http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a11a-SWA-2451-5500w.jpg and http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a6-5500w.jpg to start from? Cut the drama.
 
Sweet 8 pound 6 ounce baby Jesus.

Quoting myself in the OP (emphasis added):



I appreciate that you took the time to provide feedback on my design and the additional safety concerns/requirements associated with going up to 40A on the supply. That was value-added. Getting bent out of shape over the time I didn't ask you to spend though? Come on. Lose the Messiah complex. Minus the photos, that drawing is 20-30 minutes in Visio from scratch, tops. Saying you "wasted two hours" on it when you already had http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a11a-SWA-2451-5500w.jpg and http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a6-5500w.jpg to start from? Cut the drama.

P-J Has helped more people that are just getting started in electric brewing than you or him will ever know and I for one appreciate the time and effort he puts into his diagrams regardless of the time it takes him. Because I do not want to lose my membership by telling you what I think of your comments, I will leave it at that. :mad:
 
P-J, your electrical assistance to those who know < Jack is commendable. I for one have gotten much use out of your layouts old and new. Who else out there is doing this?
I will post my eBuild soon; a lot of which was inspired by the people on this board like P-J.
 
P-J Has helped more people that are just getting started in electric brewing than you or him will ever know and I for one appreciate the time and effort he puts into his diagrams regardless of the time it takes him. Because I do not want to lose my membership by telling you what I think of your comments, I will leave it at that. :mad:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Like I said above, I appreciate the input he provided into my design. I specifically said in my OP that I didn't want/need him to re-draw anything for me. For him to get pissy about me deciding to explore another option after he made a drawing I explicitly asked him not to spend the time on in my OP? Unnecessary.

My day job is in lean manufacturing, so I get paid to reduce/eliminate inefficiency. (the smarta-- version is that I'm a professional at enabling people to be lazier.) My experience is that anyone who gripes about how long something takes is better off spending a little time figuring out a better way. It pays dividends.

Oh, and just to fan the flame a little more, a buddy of mine hooked me up with some Allen-Bradley parts. Now I will have illuminated selectors everywhere, and a real e-stop system as opposed to just deliberately tripping the GFCI. Do not make me a drawing.
 
I have never written anything on any Internet forum. I have spent a lot of time reading about electric brewing. My set up I am going to give full credit to p-j's drawings and the quality setup that kal from electric brewery. These two people have really set the standard for what I would like my system to become over the next year or so. My question is directed towards P-J or someone else on this forum. Are all his excellent drawings cataloged somewhere for people to browse ? It seems like someone on this forum should host these on a website for him. I would offer to do it but have no idea how to do it. And my free is so limited that this small brewing project is taking months to complete. If there was a catalog of drawings to look through maybe he wouldn't have to answer questions like hey I was looking for an old drawing from you ??????
 
I have never written anything on any Internet forum. I have spent a lot of time reading about electric brewing. My set up I am going to give full credit to p-j's drawings and the quality setup that kal from electric brewery. These two people have really set the standard for what I would like my system to become over the next year or so. My question is directed towards P-J or someone else on this forum. Are all his excellent drawings cataloged somewhere for people to browse ? It seems like someone on this forum should host these on a website for him. I would offer to do it but have no idea how to do it. And my free is so limited that this small brewing project is taking months to complete. If there was a catalog of drawings to look through maybe he wouldn't have to answer questions like hey I was looking for an old drawing from you ??????

Voltin is awesome for posting this in my thread.
 
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