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Pulled a sample of the Wy4766 batch after cold crashing for 24 hours (only at about 40 degrees, crappy fridge). SG is @ 1.0138 now. Seems pretty crazy for it to drop 0.0039 in 24 hours when it's in the fridge. Guess that speaks to how hard it is to stop Wy4766.

Interestingly the carbonation is pretty evident already.
 
wcarter - did the 4766 taste OK at 1.010? Being impossible to stop could be useful for someone who is bottle pasteurizing and doesnt want the crash to stop the yeast

phishie - The Wy3333 makes a tasty cider but I strongly recommend not trying to use nitrogen reduction to bottle carb this next batch. Its not a reliable process and I would not recommend even experimenting with it to anyone who has not already had some experience and success with cold crashing.

It is important that first you verify that you can successfully crash the juice and stop it completely, so that it does not restart later. You may want to start with just a gallon for this. Or maybe crash just a gallon and pasteurize the rest.

After you crash the Wy3333, keep an eye on it. If your juice is like mine you will see a tiny bit of airlock activity for a few days, but only a few days. If it goes for much longer then it may not every be safe to put in a bottle without pasteurizaton. Otherwise, you want to note how long it takes to go flat and stay flat

You also might want to do some experimenting with gallon batches using some other yeasts. I suspect other wheat yeasts like 3068, 3056, 3638, WLP300, WLP380 have similar properties depending on the juice so one of these may work better with a given juice source. Also dont do this unless you are prepared to deal with burst bottles.

Kevin- Im honestly not a fan of 4766, Ive used it 2 times in cider and once in a graff. Even at 1.010 it tasted pretty bland, all the apple flavor was gone. Reminded me of a cheap sparkling white wine. I usually crash most of my ciders at around 1.005 to 1.010 and have had some very great results.

All in all I just think 4766 is not a great yeast, unless you plan to totally dry your cider out and age it for at least a year I would recommend staying away from this yeast.
 
Pulled a sample of the Wy4766 batch after cold crashing for 24 hours (only at about 40 degrees, crappy fridge). SG is @ 1.0138 now. Seems pretty crazy for it to drop 0.0039 in 24 hours when it's in the fridge. Guess that speaks to how hard it is to stop Wy4766.

Interestingly the carbonation is pretty evident already.

Even if you crash it a few times, it really just slows it down. Like I mentioned before I was able to crash it twice and thought it was stable at 1.010 only to have bottle bombs after being in bottles for a month. Your best bet is to just let it rip through your cider and dry it out, backsweeten and then pasterize.
 
Even if you crash it a few times, it really just slows it down. Like I mentioned before I was able to crash it twice and thought it was stable at 1.010 only to have bottle bombs after being in bottles for a month. Your best bet is to just let it rip through your cider and dry it out, backsweeten and then pasterize.

Haha I'm considering it. I'm also beginning to think my taste for cider is pretty elementary because the cider tastes pretty good to me at this point.
 
Haha I'm considering it. I'm also beginning to think my taste for cider is pretty elementary because the cider tastes pretty good to me at this point.

Keep experimenting, youll find a combo that you really like soon. My fav yeast for cider has been notty fermented on the cold side so i can control it and crash it easier.

I did a cider last year with Brett b, I let it sit for 3 months before I drank it. Developed some tropical fruit flavors with just a bit of barnyard funk. Was a very interesting cider.

Right now Im trying to culture yeast from the dregs of JK scrumpy. I wrote them and they confirmed that they have enough wild yeast and no longer are using champagne yeast. Hopefully I can get a decent amount of yeast and Im gonna try to use to do my next batch, may even try lagering it and see how the cold ferment will change the profile of the cider
 
I am new to making cider, (just got my first batch going 11 days ago), and I am a little confused and was wondering if someone could dumb it down and tell me what steps to take to get a good cider. I used pasturized cider and added about a pound of golden brown sugar to each of my two, one gallon batches. You talk about cold crashing and I dont want my cider too dry so should I do that now and then bottle? I was under the impression I wanted to let it sit in primary 2 or more weeks then rack it to secondry for another month or two. Could i actually just rack it and let it sit for a day and drink it uncarbinated? Someone please point a blind man in the right direction I am so lost!
 
I am a little confused and was wondering if someone could dumb it down and tell me what steps to take to get a good cider.

Well, there are about as many styles and ways to make cider as there are for beer and wine, so this depends a lot on what you are going for. A good place to start is to read the other two stickies and use the forum search function to find more info on any topic.

You talk about cold crashing and I dont want my cider too dry so should I do that now and then bottle?

Not if you are using glass bottles - cold crashing can be very effective for stopping a fermentation, but it requires the right yeast and juice and takes some practice. If you cold crash, I'd recommend using PET bottles for the first season until you have it down. Also, you want to taste it first. You used a ton of sugar in these batches, so depending on the yeast, it may still have a fair amount of residual sugar even after 11 days. If you want a good bottle conditioned sweet cider, follow the instructions in Pappers' sticky on bottle pasteurization.

I was under the impression I wanted to let it sit in primary 2 or more weeks then rack it to secondry for another month or two.

That is pretty much the conventional cider recipe, which will usually give you a dry cider that requires many months of aging to taste good.

Could i actually just rack it and let it sit for a day and drink it uncarbinated?

Yes, although it may continue to ferment unless you keep it cold.
 
Yes! New bottle crates arrived yesterday. Now I can finally get rid of the crappy cardboard cases

bottlecrates2.jpg


I'm planning to do some more experiments with bottle carbing using nutrient reduction. Having these crates will let me get a little more aggressive. Not that I'm trying to burst any bottles, but if I do, they will be a lot easier to deal with.
 
CvilleKevin,
I fermented my flash pasturized, non sulfited 1.060 cider down to 1.008. Racked and cold crashed for 24 hours. Then racked to a keg.
It appears to have settled at 1.004.
Tasting it, I seem to get a little sulfer odor. Is that normal and will it disapate?
Nottingham yeast @ 66 degrees and fermentation took about a week.
Thanks
Bull
 
the sulfur odor will dissipate on its own but you can accelerate the process by scrubbing the cider, - pressurize the keg at 25psi until fully carbed (a day in the fridge or 2-3 at room temp, then let the pressure all the way out. Continue to let the pressure out every 4-8 hours until the cider is flat again and not releasing any more CO2 after the last interval (it usually takes about 24 hours for the CO2 to completely release at room temp, might be a little more or less if cold). The CO2 releasing will scrub out the sulfur.

Usually one cycle of this is enough, but repeat if necessary.
 
I do not own a CO2 system. How long , guesstimate, that it will take to come clean on its own in the 5 gal bucket and/or in the bottle.

Thanks, Rick
 
How long , guesstimate, that it will take to come clean on its own in the 5 gal bucket and/or in the bottle

you dont need C02 to cold crash, just a fridge. Typical time to clearing can be from a couple days to 6 months depending on the type of apples, how the juice was processed before and after fermentation, type of yeast, whether clearing agents were added before or after. Try searching the forum for "cider clearing" to find some examples that match your situation.
 
the sulfur odor will dissipate on its own but you can accelerate the process by scrubbing the cider, - pressurize the keg at 25psi until fully carbed (a day in the fridge or 2-3 at room temp, then let the pressure all the way out. Continue to let the pressure out every 4-8 hours until the cider is flat again and not releasing any more CO2 after the last interval (it usually takes about 24 hours for the CO2 to completely release at room temp, might be a little more or less if cold). The CO2 releasing will scrub out the sulfur.

Usually one cycle of this is enough, but repeat if necessary.

Thanks for your help and all the great info on this thread.

Bull
 
That is a fantastic photo and the information you take away from this calculated testing is invaluable. Keep up the good work!
 
I got another 48 gallons of juice yesterday. Its one of the best tasting mixes I've ever started with. 50 percent Stayman, 30 percent Pink Lady and 20 percent Albemarle Pippin. huge apple taste from the front to the finish. OG was 1.052 and pH was 3.9. The picture below was taken about six hours after the yeast pitch

Cider25.jpg


In the right foreground are three ale yeast batches, Brupack, S04 and Gervin English. They each got 18oz of turbinado and 9oz of dextrose. The S04 started the fastest of these, its the one in the middle and has already got a pretty decent krausen starting by the time of the pic. The Gervin on the far right is lagging a bit.

On the bar, the fourth ale yeast - US05 is on the far left. followed by Wy3068 and Wy3056 wheat yeasts. These 3 also got the 18oz turbinado 9oz dextrose bump. The Wy3068 had the best start of the wheat yeasts

The two on the right side of the bar are Wy3638 and Wy3333 wheats. They each got 3lbs of orange blossom honey. In the pic you can kinda see that the honey has temporarily cleared the Wy3333 batch (2nd from end).

All the wheat yeasts have blow off tubes. The Wy3638 batch is already blowing a lot of foam, the others likely will follow in the next couple days.

The Wy3333 got off to a real slow start this time around. The pack was so slow to swell that I thought maybe I had a dud. I moved the pack to the warmest room in the house and drove to LHBS to get a new one just in case. The pack finally swelled but it took about 8 hours, while the others were bursting after 2-3 hours. This evening when I came home from work it looked like it was just starting to get going, but pretty weak compared to the others, so I pitched the 2nd pack. Its going pretty good now.

In the back row next to the fridge, you can see a carboy from the first pressing this season. it just cleared. This was a batch with Gala, Mac and Prima, S04 and wildflower honey. None of the batches with that juice blend cleared. I drank the other two cloudy and set this one on the shelf. It was muddy looking until about a week ago I noticed it suddenly went completely clear. Hopefully some of the rest of these will do this soon because I'm running out of space.
 
So, this was my first time and I ready many threads, but I am still worried about bottling and overpressurization.
So here is what I did let me know what you think
Pressed on 10/20/2010, added 5x campden tabs (probably too many imo).
10/21/10 sg=1.051 added Wyeast 4766
10/21 fermented at 65 F
10/30/10 transfered to secondary and added 4.5 tsp Pectic Enzyme @60 F.
Waited for it to clear.
11/20/10 sg= 1.000 added 3/4c corn sugar and bottled.
I tasted it before bottling and adding the sugar and it was very tart, but still a distinct apple taste. I do think it has a slight yeast flavor that is a bit off-putting.
Will my bottles still explode, and what will aging do for the flavor. I usually make beer and so I just followed my typical bottling procedure, and have heard that I should let it mellow.
 
So, this was my first time and I ready many threads, but I am still worried about bottling and overpressurization.
So here is what I did let me know what you think
Pressed on 10/20/2010, added 5x campden tabs (probably too many imo).
10/21/10 sg=1.051 added Wyeast 4766
10/21 fermented at 65 F
10/30/10 transfered to secondary and added 4.5 tsp Pectic Enzyme @60 F.
Waited for it to clear.
11/20/10 sg= 1.000 added 3/4c corn sugar and bottled.
I tasted it before bottling and adding the sugar and it was very tart, but still a distinct apple taste. I do think it has a slight yeast flavor that is a bit off-putting.
Will my bottles still explode, and what will aging do for the flavor. I usually make beer and so I just followed my typical bottling procedure, and have heard that I should let it mellow.

According to Wyeast, that strain has a tolerance of 12% so it could ferment down to .985, theoretically. However, in my experience, I've never had bombs from bottling at 1.000. The fact you added too much cambden, and didn't feed the cider with malt or other nutrients, you are probably safe. If it makes you feel better, you could always sample it every few days (or weeks, if progress is very slow) until it's carbed up, then pasteurize.

Also, aging dry cider is pretty much mandatory. It definitely will clean up the harshness, just like beer, but even more dramatically in my opinion.
 
Thanks Fletch. I had not even considered pasteurizing, but I will definitely look into it. I am used to making beer, but I guess that since I didnt boil the juice like I would with wort I did not sterilize it, duh. I am just familiarizing myself with this process. So, do you think that you could bottle ferment cider at a higher gravity to retain sweetness then pasteurize to kill the yeast and not end up with bombs, or should I just get a keg system?
 
First, just want to say thanks, as so many others have for starting this thread and keeping it going (2 years now!). The knowledge here is invaluable. This is my second year making cider and I've actually got some more questions to pose but will stick to just one for the moment if anybody would be so kind as to give me a recommendation. A buddy and I started a 5 gallon batch of cider over the weekend using some local heat pasteurized cider (hard to find unpasteurized this late in the season). No preservatives. Based on recommendations, we pitched 1/2 the recommended dose of k meta on 11/28 to kill of any wild yeasts (we don't know about the practices, sanitation, etc. at the press) and to hopefully help add some of the juice preserving properties CKev mentioned throughout the thread. We also made a starter using 16 oz. of the same starter and one packet US-05. Got the ferment going, released the pressure, and put in the fridge overnight. On 11/29 (24 hours after k meta), we added 2 lbs. honey (warmed to mix easier), and our yeast starter (also warmed to room temp to restimulate fermentation). Moved the 6.5 gallon ale pail to the basement to ferment at ~65 degrees. As of last night ~24 hours, no bubbling in the airlock so I moved the bucket back upstairs (~72 degrees) to stimulate quicker fermentation. Still no bubbling in the airlock this am and when I peeked in the bucket, there was minimal signs of fermentation (some small white piles of crusty on the top but no fizzing, etc. as I've seen in the past with wine yeast). Should I be concerned? I'm considering taking one of the following steps and would appreciate some advice:
1. Pitch the 2nd packet of US-05 yeast the way CKev does it: 1/3 of a packet at a time dry letting it sink in slowly before adding each third, stir it up and replace the lid.
2. Make a starter with the 2nd packet and pitch the starter once we’re getting some good activity.
3. Add yeast nutrient and energizer to see if we can get it going that way, either adding the full recommended dose of each for five gallons (I believe 5 t nutrient and 1 t energizer) or using staggered addition as recommended by AHA for mead (1 t nutrient and ½ t energizer each day for three days).
4. Just stir vigorously and see if adding some oxygen helps.

Regardless, I'll check the SG before I go ahead and if it looks like we're just not getting the visible signs, I may wait to do anything. Thanks again for the help, I'm worried about f***ing it up and don't want to make the wrong move!
 
SNO - Usually US05 starts within a few hours for me, but I dont use any k-meta. Since you have pasteurized juice, you dont need to add it, its only an issue with unpasteurized. The k-meta probably slowed it down a bit, but it should be going pretty good by now, if not I'd pitch another packet
 
Thanks so much for the response Kevin. When I arrived home yesterday evening, fermentation had started. The airlock is now bubbling away at about 1 bubble/ 2 seconds. I appreciate the feedback on the k-meta, I hadn't considered that this would likely slow the onset of fermentation. If you don't see much value to adding it before fermentation (for preservative purposes), I may not do so in the future.

In the past, I have always pasteurized on the stovetop, simmering for ~45 minutes and pitching my starter at ~80 degrees. Fermentation has almost always started within 4-6 hours so I was a bit concerned. I often have to remind myself just to chill out but I have had some issues with the first several batches this year so my paranoia isn't entirely unfounded....

Because I prefer sparkling ciders and do not have a kegging system, I have always fermented to dry and primed at bottling in the past. Additionally, SWMBO prefers dry to sweet. The yeasts I have used are Red Star Cotes de Blancs and Lalvin 71B-1122. I prefer the Cotes de Blancs of the two. From reading through the forum, I understand that you generally don't ferment to dry and force carb; however, do you have a recommendation for a yeast strain that will do well with fermenting to dry and priming for bottle carbonation? As I said, I've been happy with Cotes de Blanc but if there is something that will preserve more of the apple flavor, I'd be thrilled. Just wondering if the results of your strain experimentation may not apply quite as well to my situation given we always ferment to dry. FYI, based on all the info in this thread, we do intend to pull off a couple of gallons at 1.010, cold crash, and bottle still. We will rack after the crash and make sure that the activity ceases before we do this. I'm excited to taste the difference and will let you know how it goes.
 
I'm stunned - that is a lot of cider!

Yeah, the downside of having a good local source for fresh juice is that apple pressing season is only about 4 months, whereas cider drinking season is 12 months, so I gotta make hay while the sun is shining.

do you have a recommendation for a yeast strain that will do well with fermenting to dry and priming for bottle carbonation?

I'm not the best person to ask about this, as I usually try to stop the ferment before it dries out. That said, from the batches I've done that went completely dry, I like the Wy4184 the best, although it takes a minimum of 6 months of aging to taste good. Other dry batches that were good tasting and popular with my dry drinking friends are Wy1275, WLP565 and Youngs cider yeast.
 
Kevin, from what you've seen, do higher residual sugar levels affect the yeast's ability to reactivate after cold crashing? Would like to find a yeast I can crash pretty high - like 1.028, then bottle, let carb, and stove top pasteurize. I like Safale 04, but from what I've read here, it seems like it might crash out too well and not leave me anything to carb with.

Thanks for the flipping awesome thread, and articulating so well your experiences for us. Cheers!

BTW, How'd those Grolsh bottles of 3333 turn out? Flat? Carbed? Explodey?

Whops, I just read in Papper's thread that you recommend lager yeast for this very purpose. Makes sense. Is there any consensus out there on a few good lager yeasts for cider? I'm willing to experiment, but thought I'd ask.
 
How'd those Grolsh bottles of 3333 turn out? Flat? Carbed? Explodey?

So far, so good. I drank one at week 3 and it was lightly carbed and tasted great. Could have used about twice as much carb. No explosions so far (knock on wood). I was going to wait another 3 weeks, but since you asked, I just put one in the fridge and will hopefully get to drink it tonite (which will be a little over 5 weeks). I just crashed another batch of 3333 and I'm planning to bottle these a little sooner (probably wait just a couple days after the crash instead of 5 days).

Is there any consensus out there on a few good lager yeasts for cider? I'm willing to experiment, but thought I'd ask.

I dont know about a consensus, but I really like the taste of S23. Its only drawback is that it hard to crash, which should be a plus if you want to pasteurize afterwards (well, that and Fermentis jacked the price a couple years ago so that its almost as expensive as liquid yeast). I have some Wy2112 and WLP810 that I am planning to experiment with, but this season I've been fairly slammed and barely able to keep up with keg batches, so will probably be another month before I have time to check these out.
 
Kevin-
Thanks for the feedback on some good yeast for dry mead. I use the WY4184 in a ginger mint metheglin earlier this year, which I have yet to sample. I'm bottle aging for a year before I sample so we'll see how that turns out. I think I will definitely give the WLP565 a try in the future and will let you know how it turns out for a dry bottle carbed cider. I happen to have a vial of the WLP720 on hand. I didn't notice if you had tried this in the past...any thoughts?

The US-05 batch is now down to 1.032 about five days in. It's slowing down a bit (about 1 bubble/6 secs). It tastes good but is putting off some sulfur smells, which effects the flavor a bit in the samples I've taken from the wine thief. In reading through the thread, I have noted that you deal with the sulfur by scrubbing. While I'm still hoping that the smell will dissipate as it continues to ferment, do you have any suggestions for eliminating the smell without scrubbing in kegs with CO2? On a side note, I have a previous 5 gallon batch that has been sitting in secondary for about 1.5 weeks. I racked at 1.000 and it stunk up the kitchen like crazy...still stinks and is pretty cloudy. This is my third 5 gallon batch this year with sulfur smells and I am now a bit terrified... My batches last year didn't have similar issues and had a very nice apple scent during fermentation with the same yeast and added honey (2 lbs./ 5 gallons). The first batch this year, I added yeast nutrient and energizer the day I noticed the stink and it cleared nicely. The second (the nasty one), I added nutrient and it cleared right away and came back with a vengeance. Now, I don't know what the heck to do. I haven't added anything to the US-05 batch and don't plan to unless you'd advise. Any suggestions on what I may be able to do with the stinky batch? I sincerely appreciate your help with this. Your diligence in answering everybody's questions is impressive. Even if I can't save the nasty batch, I just want to know what I can do to avoid issues in the future. I really really miss the scent of a happily fermenting batch of cider....
 
SNO - I've tried WLP720 on a few batches, but didnt have much luck with it. They all came out pretty dry and flavorless.

Some yeasts are naturally stinky, but not US05. Try moving your carboys to someplace cooler to reduce the sulfur smell. Ideally around 60-65F for ale yeast.
 
Thanks Kevin. I'm sitting at 65...I can move it to my attic to get it to 60 and will give that a try. Any suggestions for the rotten batch sitting in secondary? I used Red Star Cotes de Blanc on that batch. I've seen from reading in the forums that some have had luck racking through a copper scrubby and I'm basically willing to try anything at this point.
 
SNO - the sulfur smell will go away on its own with time, so if you dont have kegs and C02, your best bet is to wait it out until it clears up on its own. Did you add k-meta to the CdB batch also? When I used to add k-meta to unpasteurized juice, it would always be stinky for at least the first week or two of fermentation, sometimes longer. I think that ale yeasts can get stressed by k-meta during fermentation (as well as high temps). 65 should be cool enough to keep US05 from stressing, but if you can drop the temp to 60, it wouldnt hurt. All I've ever used for getting rid of sulfur smells is keg scrubbing and time, but there may be other ways to get rid of it. Search the forum on "sulfur" and "rhino farts" for some other takes on this.
 
Thanks Kevin. Yes, I did add k-meta to the CdB batch. I appreciate the advice to just chill out and let it be. I think I'll just let it sit in secondary until I start seeing some noticeable improvement then prime and bottle. From the info I have read on the forum and on gotmead, it sounds like I could aerate as well to help dissipate the smell but I don't want to risk oxidizing when patience is all that is needed. Some of the info can freak you out a bit with talk of mercaptans and do this or do that right away....

In regards to the US-05 batch, I moved it to the attic and this seems to be helping with the smell. The US-05 batch is much less stinky so I'm not too worried. I think it should clear nicely over time. FYI, I'm very pleased with the flavor so far!

Based on the reading I've done here (thanks again) and my desire to come up with the best dry cider recipe for bottle carbing, I plan to do some experimentation of my own shortly. I've got some yeast on order in additon to extra bubblers and 6.5 bungs and will report back once I've got things set up. The plan is to do one gallon with each yeast and each sugar (or no added sugar):

Yeast:
Nottingham
WLP565
WLP720 (since I've got it on hand)
Wy4184
Safale US-05
Safale S-04

Sugar:
2/3 light turbinado, 1/3 corn sugar (as you recommend to get to 1.060)
~1/2 lb. honey
no added sugar

So....6 yeasts and three sugar (or no sugar) treatments = 18 different ciders. This should give us a good sampling and hopefully help to identify something spectacular. It may be awhile before we have any tasting info to include on the forum as I'll probably give these batches some good time to age in the bottle (at least 6 months). I'll be using pasteurized juice and don't plan to add to add any k-meta as I can't say I've been thrilled with the effect it seems to have on fermentation. I would like to have the ability to hold onto bottles for multiple years but I guess I'll just take my chances. Thanks again for the help on my questions and for the inspiration!
 
Kevin, glad the 3333 batch turned out! Sounds delicious.

I did end up trying the Wyeast Czech Pils on a batch. The smack pack swelled only slightly, maybe not at all after 14 hrs. I pitched it anyway and after 36 hrs saw nothing. I then pitched trusty s-04 and it was rippin in about 10 hrs. Not sure what was going on there.

Just cracked open a bottle of Cherry Apple (s-04) i crashed at 1.026 for just one night in the fridge. Turned out freaking awesome. Could use another week to carb up a bit more, but it seems bottle carbing after crashing is possible so long as residual sugars are somewhat high, and the crash isn't too long. This has a clear pink hue, no sediment.

Also tried to crash a Cherry Cyser (s-05). After a night in the fridge at 36* it only took ten minutes on the kitchen counter for it to start bubbling again every 6 or 7 seconds. I was amazed. Can't tell how much it cleared up though, because I used so much cherry that this one turned out a dark blood red.

Thanks again for sharing man. I'm stoked! Inspired! Keep brewing dude!

oh, PS - You ever try any wine yeasts on your cider..?
 
You ever try any wine yeasts on your cider..?

I've tried a few wine yeasts. The ones I liked the best were Enoferm ICV-D47 and Lalvin 71B-1122. These didnt crash worth a damn and finished real dry, but smooth and with some character. Not really my taste, but I think folks who like a dry white wine would like these. I've also tried Cotes de Blanc and Lalvin 1116 which I thought were bland and flavorless. Vintners Harvest MA33, Lalvin RHST were a little better but not much. Lallemand Assmanhausen tasted pretty good a couple months in the bottle, but after 6 months, not so much. My friends dubbed it "house of the ass man". I still have a bottle left of the MA33, RHST and Assmanhausen, so one of these days I'll see if they got any better over time

Last weekend, some friends threw a Terra Madre party and I broke out a few kegs of some really dry stuff that I made with ale yeast (S04, US05 and Notty) and let go completely dry over 2 years ago. These were made with just Jonathon apples, which supposedly can be used for single varietal cider, but I dont recommend it. Jonathons are great to give some bite to a mix but by themselves are a bit much. They were very acidic when they finished fermenting but there was enough apple in the finish that I held on to them to see what would happen. After two years of mellowing they are finally getting drinkable. Still really dry, and much more like a white wine than what I liked, but there were some wine drinkers at the party that liked these a lot. Still, its a minority taste - those three kegs were barely dented. The two kegs that floated were both made this season with wyeast 1010 - one with Cortland, Gala, Macs and orange blossom honey and other with Stayman, Winesap, York, Gala and raspberries. The Wy1010 is a little stinky when its fermenting, even at cool temps, but it goes down great.

I drank the 2nd grolsh of bottle carbed Wy3333 about 2 weeks ago. It tasted great, but didnt seemed to be any more carbed than the first one - just a bit of carb. I might have waited too long (5 days) after the crash to bottle it. Its also fairly cool in my basement (~55F) which could be slowing things a bit. I'm going to keep drinking one a month to see what happens. In the meantime I'm about to start another batch with Wy3333, which I will try to bottle a little sooner after the crash.

I just picked up another 52 gallons (9 carboys) of juice today. I'm still waiting for a couple of the smack packs to swell up. The juice is 2/3 Pink Lady, 1/3 York. I was hoping for more York, as the mix of apples was 50/50, but the press didnt get much yield from the Yorks. The smell is great, the taste is good, but not as good as the last batch. The sg is 1.064 but it doesnt taste that sweet up front and a sort of cinnamon taste and a little less apple when the juice is in the mouth. It finishes tangy even though the ph is 4.1. Since the sg is so high, I didnt add any sugar to any of these, but I did add 2lbs of orange blossom honey to the Wy3333 batch to make sure it clears fast on the crash. The batches are:

S04, Brupack Ale, US05, Wy3068 and Wy3056, which are sorta becoming the house ciders.
Wy2001 - because I think its finally cold enough to make a batch of this without stinking up the basement
Wy3333, with orange blossom honey - still trying to nail the bottle carb
WLP380 - This is one of the experimental batches that folks liked a lot last year so I'm trying out the first keg batch
Wild yeast - I think its finally cold enough to do a wild yeast batch without it fermenting out of control. time will tell.

update - 2:30am and the Wy2001 smack pack hasnt expanded at all. I pitched it anyway, as this yeast sometimes goes slow, but after reading Kula's experience, I'm starting to wonder if its a bad batch. I've got a bunch of british ale yeasts in the fridge that are almost out of date, so if the Wy2001 isnt rolling in 36 hours, I'm going to pitch them all for a yeast cage match.
 
Thanks for sharing about the wine yeasts. Very helpful.

Assmanhausen = "House of the ass man" - that cracked me up dude.

Yea, maybe if you move those bottles out of the basement they might carb up sooner. I'm having the same problem with a batch I crashed down to the mid-30's for about three days then bottled directly out of the fridge. It's got a slight carb that hasn't changed for a week or two, so it may have gone as far as it can.

My technique has evolved to letting the cider heat back up a bit, until there's some visable airlock activity, then rack, then bottle. The idea of the rack prior to bottle is to ensure the viable yeast is mixed in evenly, at least that's my theory.

So far, out of the four bigger batches I've tried to bottle carb, two were ready after about three or four days, one batch was ready after a day, and then there's the slow one I described above. I'd like to get it dialed in so they carb up in about a week though.

These are all mostly S-04 or 05. I had some trouble crashing that one I started with the Pils yeast. I think in actuality there probably was some viability to it afterall, because the crash didn't slow that one nearly as much as the others.

52 gallons?! Where do you get 52 gallons?!

Are you currently letting them UV pasteurize these for you, or are you going with the tablets?

Guessing the 3333 w/honey might be tricky to bottle carb with the clearing and attenuating effects of the honey. Just a guess though. You seem to have the crashing thing pretty well dialed in. I'm learning that understanding the nature of the particular strain of yeast in question is always a very good idea if you want to crash and get controllable results.

Keep the posts coming Kevin. I'm having a blast following your progress.
 
Reading these posts makes me miss your cider parties! Hope you're doing well.

Preston
 
Hey Preston - good to hear from you! Things are going well in Cville, hope you are doing well in Denver. Nice looking keg list there! The cider parties miss you too! What sort of cider have you got going?

52 gallons?! Where do you get 52 gallons?!

We've got a lot of orchards around here. This last pressing, including juice for friends, I picked up 85 gallons, which is actually a smallish run. The biggest pickup this season was over 250 gal

Are you currently letting them UV pasteurize these for you, or are you going with the tablets?

Neither - I get the juice unpasteurized and dont sulfite. The main press I go to is very sanitary and I've never had problems with unwanted bugs (knock on wood)

understanding the nature of the particular strain of yeast in question is always a very good idea if you want to crash and get controllable results.

True - I believe the juice plays a significant part as well

This last batch of ciders took a while to get going, probably because it was so cold in the basement - about 55F. The Wy3068 started the soonest, at about 12 hours. Most of them were going by 24 hours, but fairly sluggish so I put a space heater next to the carboys for a couple days. That warmed things up to 60F. The Wy2001 and WLP380 still took about 3 days to really get going and the wild batch is just getting started now, about 6 days later. Everything is smelling really good, even the Wy2001
 
Hey Preston - good to hear from you! Things are going well in Cville, hope you are doing well in Denver. Nice looking keg list there! The cider parties miss you too! What sort of cider have you got going?

I have an experimental (for me) cider going. I guess it's actually graff, but the malt component only makes up about 20% of the fermentables. I used DME and a generous helping of crystal. I have always made dry ciders, but I want something different now. Hopefully I'll figure it out in a few batches.
 
Kevin - Amazed at your ability to handle so much juice. The cleaning / sanitizing must take some time. Have you considered going commercial with all this?

I too would like to eventually get my juice from an orchard. I definitely have the opportunity being here in Oregon. Mind if I ask what you look for when you source your juice? I imagine the stuff you get, has a much different taste profile than the organic blends I've been buying at the store. Not sure though.

In any case, Happy New Year from the west coast!
 
Amazed at your ability to handle so much juice. The cleaning / sanitizing must take some time.

Having a pickup truck helps. It takes a bit of time, but not all that much more than doing a single carboy. A lot of time time is prep, making the trip to get the juice, etc. Crashing does take longer because that is a serial step for me, since I only have room in the fridge for one carboy at a time. The single gallon experimental batches probably take the longest because I tend to taste them more frequently and bottle them at the end vs kegging – which is one reason I’ve cut back on the experiments this year.

Have you considered going commercial with all this?

Yeah, I’ve thought about it, but when I figured out how many kegs I would have to sell to quit my day gig, it didn’t seem like such a good idea. Plus, the nice thing about working at this scale is that each batch is a little different, I’m still learning a lot, and the homebrew party scene is a lot of fun. Once you go commercial, then success is all about consistency, scale, distribution, shelf life, branding, etc. I don’t want to have to fool with all that.

Mind if I ask what you look for when you source your juice?

In my experience, what you want to look for is a nice spicy apple smell to start with, then a big sweet apple taste up front, with the sweetness fading but leaving a lot of apple flavor when its in your mouth and a tart finish. Ideally the flavor is almost too intense for drinking as table juice, except maybe for sipping. Probably the closest thing I got this year to an ideal mix was the Stayman, Pink Lady, Albemarle Pippen mix. I wish I could get that all year long.

Probably the main thing to look for if you are dealing with a commercial press is a press operator who either makes or likes hard cider and is keeping an eye out for good hard cider apples. One of the challenges of getting a good mix is that the apples ripen at different times, and depending on the market, not everything may be available as #2 cider grade apples, so you might have to get creative with what’s available. If you don’t mind paying full price for retail bushels and have your own press, then you can make great mixes all year long, but that’s a bit more time and money. Also if you can, go to local apple festivals and taste apples. That is how I found out about the Albemarle Pippens (although it took me two years, until this season to find any #2s). This year my favorite was a Gold Rush, so I'll be looking for that one next year.

Happy New Year from the west coast!

Cheers from the Virginia Piedmont!

I picked up another 22 single gallons for some experiments on Friday. The juice was a mix of Fuji and Yellow Delicious – not ideal but it was all that the press had on hand and I didn’t have time to find another juice source. It’s a good mix in most respects – nice smell and a lot of apple flavor, but no tartness in the finish. The sg was 1.066 and the pH was 4.6. I thought I could compensate for the lack of finish by adding some acid blend so I added ½ teaspoon of LD Carlson Citric, Malic, Tartaric blend to a test gallon, but it didn’t give me what I was looking for. It dropped the pH by a couple tenths and made the juice taste more tangy in the mouth, but didn’t add anything to the finish and it stomped on the spicy part of the flavor. The juice was already tangy enough in the mouth, it just didn’t have any tang in the finish. Not really much finish at all. Since the acid blend didn’t really help that, I didn’t use it. So lesson learned – acid blend can provide more tang in the mouth if the juice is missing that, but it wont give you a nice finish if the juice doesn’t already have one. It retrospect, I wish I had paid full price for a couple bushels of pippens to throw in the mix, but I think it will be OK. I’m planning to let these go a little drier than usual, so that the little bit of acid that is in the juice will be more prominent. Time will tell if that works.

Cider26.jpg


10 of the gallons are UV pasteurized. I’m doing some experiments on different clearing agents with these, so I intentionally wanted something that would be harder to clear. So far, I haven’t ever used any clearing agents, and I’m not sure that I ever will, but I wanted to check out the effects on the taste. Some of the batches from this year took longer to clear than usual, which is backing up the production. I added pectic enzyme to 5 of these, left the other 5 as-is. Using S04 on all 10. After the crash, I’m going to use Bentonite, Super Klear, Isinglass and Sparkloid on each pair and do nothing to the other two. One of my reservations about using pectic enzyme is that the presense of pectin increases fusel alcohols. Dissolving the pectin might make the yeast consume more of it and could result in higher fusels. So at some point I’m going to have to have to drink a liter or two with the pectic enzyme and compare the hangover to the same batch without the pectic enzyme. My only regret is that I have but one liver to give to science …. One thing I noticed already is that pectic enzyme is a bit of PIA to use. You need to sprinkle it in very slowly or else it gets all clumpy and the clumps are damn near impossible to break up with shaking.

The other 12 gallons are unpasteurized, no k-meta or any additives at all, with the following yeasts:

Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale
Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Wyeast 2112 California Lager
Wyeast 1272 American Ale II
White Labs WLP023 Burton Ale
White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale
White Labs WLP810 San Francisco Lager
White Labs WLP775 English Cider
WLP041 Pacific Ale
Brewferm Blanche (dry wheat yeast)
S04 (for a control on this batch of juice)
For the last gallon I pitched 3 dry british yeasts that were almost expired (Young’s Ale, Young’s Lager & Ritchie Ale), just to see what happens.
 
CKev-
Great to see you've got another round of experiments going. I'll be excited to hear your thoughts once you've got some feedback on the clearing agent test. I had never used anything before either but the juice I got this fall must have had some high-pectin varietals. I ended up using pectic enzyme in 6 gallons after fermentation (added to secondary) and also in a five gallon batch 6 hours before pitching the yeast. Not sure if when you add the enzyme makes a difference but it definitely cleared the batch that I added at secondary. Crystal clear in about 24 hours. I know that the standard approach with mead makers is to add prior to pitching with cysers but not sure if this is a taste issue or just convenience. My pectic addition won't have any value from a taste perspective as these were different batches and different yeasts.

FYI, the second five gallon batch, I used the Young's cider yeast you recommended on an earlier post for a dry cider. It hit 1.000 in about 5 days and I racked to secondary over the weekend. It tastes great so far, I think it may be the best batch of the year. Thanks for the recommendation!
 
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