ethical guidance sought

So I found a couple of kegs for sale. I immediately jumped on it. I have not gotten them yet and I am now having second thoughts.

I decided a while back that I would not go the keggle route because of the possible ethical ramifications of stolen kegs. I just did not want to go there, plus I was not having any luck finding any leads

Well, I amost got an already converted keggle, but that did not pan out. So, I started reconsidering and now I have a lead on 2.

The seller claims they were in a garage he cleaned out and they have no id of where to return them. He mentions they can be used for homebrewing or sold to a scrap yard. That is what is causing me to reconsider. Why doesn't he return them himself? He is asking for more than scrap value; $40 for both, but he is willing to go lower. What is scrap value btw?

I am thinking a) they are stolen, or b) they are really found in a garage and he does not know to whom they belong, but he is nervous about selling them to a scrap dealer himself. Reason being recently the VT brewers association started a reward program for reporting stolen kegs and is working to get scrap yards to take license plate # and id of people selling kegs to them.

Sound fishy to you folks? Would would you do?

Buy 'em and give me one.

I'm not positive how the rules in VT work, but I doubt he'd be able to get the deposit on those kegs back. I'd take him at his word. I mean, it's a gray area, but that's a fairly light shade of gray, in my opinion. $40 for the pair is probably about their scrap value, and actually pretty cheap.

So, what happened with that other keggle? You need me to pick it up for you?

This should be the law:

As long as it's either not stamped, or stamped with anything other than BMC, it's unethical. Otherwise I find it unethical to charge someone $36 for 15 gallons of Milwaukees Best.

Buy them and don't look back.

Bird, I never got any more replys to my emails so I gave up. I would love to get that one still, but if he isn't responding to me, not much I can do.

I'm just not sure why this guy doesn't sell them for scrap himself. I offered to buy one and he said he wanted to get rid of both and he would consider less if the amount he was asking was a problem. Just started to seem sketchy when I thought about it. The reward the brewers association is offering for stolen keg info is pretty hefty $500!

To me this is insane. If the breweries are really that concerned they need to charge higher deposits and be less fussy about taking back old kegs.

Is it maybe the distributors sticking to both the customer and the brewer?

"Stolen keg" is just screwy. Have you ever looked through the chain link fence at a beer distributor's joint to think about 'stealing' a keg? Good luck.

First off, stealing is when you don't pay anything. Someone is paying $30-$40 for the keg. Second, most large breweries will have a tax-free account set up for self-insuring their kegs.

Yes, it's still theft. But where does it stop? When do we get bitched at for not returning the bottles or cans? If it wasn't profitable, BMC wouldn't do it. They know they're losing kegs, but you don't hear them bitching about it. Look at how hard Big Cable fought when they decided they were losing money to splicers.

Is it right? No. Is it forcing Adolphus Busch's kids to eat Ramen noodles? No.

Cheesefood said:

http://www.nickelmagazine.org/index.cfm/ci_id/11927.htm

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Nice find, Cheese. That was a good article.

Poindexter said:

T"Stolen keg" is just screwy. Have you ever looked through the chain link fence at a beer distributor's joint to think about 'stealing' a keg? Good luck.

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Well, the thing they gives me pause is that my local brewpub had 75 kegs stolen from them this year. I had asked them if they had any beaten up ones to sell and he told me about that. Apparently they were stolen so they could be sold for scrap. That is pretty lame. My local brewpub Trout River brewing is a pretty small operation and I am sure that must have hurt them pretty bad.

Cheesefood said:

First off, stealing is when you don't pay anything. Someone is paying $30-$40 for the keg. Second, most large breweries will have a tax-free account set up for self-insuring their kegs.

Yes, it's still theft. But where does it stop? When do we get bitched at for not returning the bottles or cans? If it wasn't profitable, BMC wouldn't do it. They know they're losing kegs, but you don't hear them bitching about it. Look at how hard Big Cable fought when they decided they were losing money to splicers.

Is it right? No. Is it forcing Adolphus Busch's kids to eat Ramen noodles? No.

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While the large breweries do have plenty of money and/or insurance to cover any kegs that go missing, that's not the whole story. I called an Anheuser-Busch distributor looking for used/scrap kegs, and he told me that they didn't keep them around because THEY (the regional distributor) also pay a deposit on the kegs, which is over $100, to the big beer company. So when someone pays the deposit and keeps the keg, the regional distributor loses the difference between their deposit and the one you paid, and the big beer company soaks up the rest. So it's not JUST the national beer corporation that loses money, it's also the local distributor.

But as you say, they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't profitable, so clearly it doesn't bother them that much or they'd be more strict about it - higher deposits and/or calling people up when they didn't return a keg after a certain amount of time.

Incidentally, immediately after this guy told me that his company would lose a bunch of money if someone keeps a keg, he told me that if I really wanted a keg then that's exactly what I should do. Didn't exactly create the impression that they cared all that much when a keg didn't come back.

Funkenjäger said:

While the large breweries do have plenty of money and/or insurance to cover any kegs that go missing, that's not the whole story. I called an Anheuser-Busch distributor looking for used/scrap kegs, and he told me that they didn't keep them around because THEY (the regional distributor) also pay a deposit on the kegs, which is over $100, to the big beer company. So when someone pays the deposit and keeps the keg, the regional distributor loses the difference between their deposit and the one you paid, and the big beer company soaks up the rest. So it's not JUST the national beer corporation that loses money, it's also the local distributor.

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If corporate requires a $100 deposit, then the local distributor should in turn require a $100 deposit if they're worried about it. Isn't that the idea behind a deposit? To cover the cost if it doesn't come back? So if you require a deposit that is less than the deposit that YOU pay for it, you're bound to lose $$.

Evan! said:

If corporate requires a $100 deposit, then the local distributor should in turn require a $100 deposit if they're worried about it. Isn't that the idea behind a deposit? To cover the cost if it doesn't come back? So if you require a deposit that is less than the deposit that YOU pay for it, you're bound to lose $$.

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I am no expert on economics, but here's my thoughts. If they make the deposit the full price of the keg, people would be less likely to buy kegged beer. Who's going to pay a $100-200 deposit on a keg when the cheap beer it holds is only $30-40? As long as MOST people return the kegs, then the company doesn't lose TOO much money, and they still turn a nice profit. If they make it too LOW, then people are more likely to keep them and when someone keeps one they will lose more money. So it's a balance between losing money from lost kegs, and losing money from scaring customers away with huge deposits.

A $30 deposit on a keg is enough of an incentive for most people to return them. Taking them to a scrap yard might yield them a little cash, or they could try to sell it for a little cash, but they're not going to make a ton of money, and they're at risk for getting caught if they try to do it regularly. If only one out of every 100 kegs truly never comes back (pulling a number out of a hat), spreading the cost out, the distributor would only be losing something like a buck a keg. As long as the loss rate is low enough then it doesn't kill their profits. Given how many scrap yards keep a pretty watchful eye on kegs, and the very small proportion of people keeping kegs for uses other than profit (ie - homebrewers) I would guess that the loss rate is probably not ALL that high. (not counting direct theft, which is another story as the person never pays a dime, thus no incentive to return it). If they are losing only a small amount of profit due to people keeping kegs, then why hike the deposit way up and scare off a bunch of customers? That's bound to hurt more.

In many states, the amount of money you can charge for a keg deposit is regulated.

But underage college kids wouldn't be able to throw big bashes if they had to lay down several grand in keg deposits, right? Plus, if the police took the kegs, the underage college kids would be in a real bind.

How many times does a keg have to be sold before it pays itself off? 4? 5?

If the kegs have enough info on them so you contact the brewery/distributor who owns them, then ethically, the guy who cleaned out his garage or whatever should contact them to inform them he has found some of their property and ask them what they want to do with the kegs.

If there is no way to contact the owner of the kegs, they are free game.

Ethically, it should be the same as finding something missing. If it is very valuable or significant, you should try to find the owner, turn into the police, etc. If it is not very valuable or significant but has contact info on it, contact the owner. If is not very valuable or signficant and has no contact info (and there is no lost and found, etc.), then you can do with it what you want.

If you find a $5 bill on the ground, then you don't need to post flyers around town about a missing $5 bill. I'd say it's the same way with kegs. If there's 2 unidentified dusty kegs sitting in an old garage, then you should feel free to buy them and use them for brewing. If you go to this guy and the kegs say: Brewery Name/Distributor Name/etc. all over it, I would pass the deal up and tell the guy he should contact the owners of the keg first.

-Jon

I know this issues is grey but here's my PERSONAL take on the issue...


When you rent a car, you pay a deposit on it. The understanding is that that deposit will be returned when the product is returned. There is NOT contractual stipulation that "The keg will be returned when the beer is gone". Someone paying a deposit on a keg and keeping it (without expectation of getting their deposit back) is within their right UNLESS there is a contractual agreement that it must be returned within a given time period.

Some states regulate deposit amounts, I believe Michigan sets the limit at $10 which is certainly not enough to make a new keg... But breweries still choose to put kegs out knowing this. If a brewery wants to do business in Michigan (or other state) then they should charge the $10 deposit and also require a contract - after 28 days your deposit will be refunded and you are consenting to a purchase of the keg at (insert keg price).

If a business or person doesn't like the regulations on a particular industry, they are free to petition the governmnet for a redress (First Amendment) and free market economy also states that they're free to not participate in a given segment.

The fact that places STILL sell kegged beer indicates that they're still making a profit off of the action.

Kevin Dean said:

Someone paying a deposit on a keg and keeping it (without expectation of getting their deposit back) is within their right UNLESS there is a contractual agreement that it must be returned within a given time period.

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This is not true at all. You don't need a contract stipulating to return a deposit. The whole point of a deposit is to recognize that the person who made the deposit will be faithful to take care of the keg and return it. You aren't buying the keg, you are buying the beer in the keg. It is completely unethical to put a deposit down on a keg and not return it. It may also be illegal.

There is no middle ground here.
It is theft.
Common, Yes.
Accepted, Often.
If you can look yourself in the mirror, then do it. If not, don't.
I just ask if you are going to do it, don't do it to the little guy, it cuts much deeper in his pocket.

Well, I guess I will at least go and have a look. It is a bit of a drive, but hey. I did not intend this to become another debate on kegs as there have been many. I guess I did not state my query clearly enough.

Mostly I am just suspicious as to why the guy mentions selling them for scrap but does not do this himself and I wanted folks take on that particular aspect. With the thought that perhaps they are stolen and he wants to unload them without the risk of taking it to a scrap yard himself.

Guess I'll give it a go. Man, I have really been spending money I do not have lately!!!

Why does there always seem to be a glut of deals when I have very little money!

They paid me $50 not to return this:

Kegerator said:

I just ask if you are going to do it, don't do it to the little guy, it cuts much deeper in his pocket.

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Exactly. However, how does one know in an instance such as this if it is from a "little guy" or not. One thing that occurs to me is that perhaps if they are from a small brewer perhaps they are not stamped as they may not bother with that.

BierMuncher said:

They paid me $50 not to return this:

View attachment 3253

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I think we need to take up a collection and pay Biermuncher to have that thing recut before somebody gets hurt!. Ouch. Hope you keep your kids away from that!

knights of Gambrinus said:

Exactly. However, how does one know in an instance such as this if it is from a "little guy" or not. One thing that occurs to me is that perhaps if they are from a small brewer perhaps they are not stamped as they may not bother with that.

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Good Question.
Even if it is stamped from a big brewer, how do you know the little guy you are taking it from is not a distributor?

knights of Gambrinus said:

Mostly I am just suspicious as to why the guy mentions selling them for scrap but does not do this himself and I wanted folks take on that particular aspect. With the thought that perhaps they are stolen and he wants to unload them without the risk of taking it to a scrap yard himself.

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It doesn't seem too suspicious, I'd much rather sell some old kegs I found in my garage to someone who will come pick them up for $40 rather than lugging them down to the scrap yard for $10. He would probably be getting more than $40 in a deposit back if he had bought kegs, and it seems a bit far fetched to be some grand keg stealing scheme.

I don't know how you can ask us to help you make the choice.
It is buying probable stolen good.
If you want to do it then do it.

I'm not judging any one.

I think the whole 'stolen keg/scrapyard' scare is getting out of proportion.

The little guy selling a keg or two he has handy is one thing. A guy with a storage unit full of kegs trying to turn a tidy profit out of a side business of 100 stolen kegs is completely different.

I would not feel unethical picking up a keg or two from a guy who had 2 lying around somewhere for what is probably a decent length of time. I would be mighty angry, and would call police, if some guy told me to meet him at his storage unit and I can see 98 other stolen kegs being hidden away in secret.

orfy said:

I don't know how you can ask us to help you make the choice.
It is buying probable stolen good.
If you want to do it then do it.

I'm not judging any one.

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I think orfy and I have been consistent with this point.
I was going to stay out, but I noticed the line about the VT Brewer's Association which to me begs the question.

Are you in an ethical dilemma or are you afraid of the penalties in getting caught with it?

Or are you going to collect a bounty on this guy?

orfy said:

It is buying probable stolen good.
I

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I see no evidence, or really any real reason at all to jump to that conclusion.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing than for scrap.

I see nothing suspicious about that at all.

In the last day and a half on this forum I have read about cars and motorcycles being stolen- should everybody assume that a car that is for sale is "probably stolen"??

There was also an offer made by a poster to give- yes, give away a bunch of grolsch bottles for free! Should we assume that they are stolen as well?

Gee whiz, talk about jumping to conclusions.

Go back and read the OP.

OP states that he believes one of the possibilities is that they are stolen.

orfy said:

I don't know how you can ask us to help you make the choice.
It is buying probable stolen good.
If you want to do it then do it.

I'm not judging any one.

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I ultimately will make the decision of course. Just wanted opinions and other takes on the situation so I can make the most informed decision. I did not mean to raise up a fuss or cause anyone annoyance. I realize this comes up time and again and there are many takes on it. I just was having reservations and wanted a community of like minded (homebrewers) people to give their personal takes on this particular situation to put some perspective on it. I appreciate all the responses and realize now it was perhaps silly to seek others opinions on a decision I must make.

Beg pardon.

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

Yeah, that is real suspicious- trying to sell it for more money is suspicious as heck. What person would try to sell for more money if that were honest, eh?

I'm sorry, there is absolutely nothing in the OP that rings any bells at all to me.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing for a few more bucks than for scrap prices.

If you were basing it off the OP, then why quote orfy?

Poindexter said:

To me this is insane. If the breweries are really that concerned they need to charge higher deposits and be less fussy about taking back old kegs.

Is it maybe the distributors sticking to both the customer and the brewer?

"Stolen keg" is just screwy. Have you ever looked through the chain link fence at a beer distributor's joint to think about 'stealing' a keg? Good luck.

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They have started to charge higher deposits now. They have these plastic bands on them, kind of like hospital bands, and they charge $40 for a deposit.

Did anyone else see this in Cheesefood's article? "New barrels cost in the range of US$70 each, but Sabco resells kegs it has bought, cleaned and reconditioned for about US$50."
I know that the cost has gone up a lot in the past 4 years, but how much? Has it doubled? Tripled?
On one of the other long threads about keg ethics, I threw out a $120 price figure for new kegs (a figure I got from the probrewer board) and was roundly criticized for being about 1/2 way there.
Why is it so hard to get a clear answer on this? Why does a Sabco brewpot cost about $350?
None of the traditional rules of economics seem to apply on this subject, which makes me suspect a conspiracy somewhere.

Docapi said:

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

Yeah, that is real suspicious- trying to sell it for more money is suspicious as heck. What person would try to sell for more money if that were honest, eh?

I'm sorry, there is absolutely nothing in the OP that rings any bells at all to me.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing for a few more bucks than for scrap prices.

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Are we really debating the veracity of the claims made by a craigslist poster? Remember the Kegerator that will save you $300 (or was it $300,00)

The article was from 2003.
IIRC Sabco no longer sells directly to home brewers and the retailer links on the site don't work.

EDIT Kegs.com... Sabco.stores.yahoo.net works

I'm sure the price is largely dependent on volume. AB's price should be significantly cheaper than a craft brewery.

Finally, I'll go by what Brewtopia has posted. He's in a brewery startup right now. I don't think they WORLD KEG CONSPIRACY got to him yet. What do you think?

Docapi said:

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

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No actually what I said was, he said you could buy them to use for homebrewing etc., or buy them and then resell for scrap. Sorry if that was not clear.

olllllo, I do not wish to buy stolen merchandise and nor I do not want to collect a bounty. As a side, I did momentarily have a bizarre paranoid thought that this was some sort of a "sting operation" and I would then be turned in for the bounty if they were indeed stolen. Yes I know that is pretty whacko... I tend to get paranoid.

Apparently one of the kegs is missing the post for screwing in the coupler (tap) so I suppose it would need reconditioning before a brewery used it anyway.

Anyway, again, silly of me to post my problem. Thanks again, I'll figure it out on my own.

olllllo said:

If you were basing it off the OP, then why quote orfy?

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I was responding to the part of Orfy's post that I quoted. Therefore, I quoted it to show what my response was referring to. That does not preclude, by any means, the remainder of the discussion, including the OP.

If you notice, I talked in my post about "seeing no evidence"" and even made a cliffs notes version of what I read is said OP.

Since Orfy's post had nothing to it other than the statement I claimed, it would seem rather obvious that I must have been referencing more than just his post.

knights of Gambrinus-

I see your clarification, now I understand better your concerns. I read the OP as saying that if the guy didn't sell them to you he planned on selling them for scrap. That is why I did not see anything suspicious- If I or most people have something, they are going to try to sell it first, then get rid of it however they can.

Are we really debating the veracity of the claims made by a craigslist poster?

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No, I was debating the jumping to the conclusion that somebody is up to illegal behavior based on no evidence, or any reason to believe so.

Docapi said:

I see no evidence, or really any real reason at all to jump to that conclusion.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing than for scrap.

I see nothing suspicious about that at all.

In the last day and a half on this forum I have read about cars and motorcycles being stolen- should everybody assume that a car that is for sale is "probably stolen"??

There was also an offer made by a poster to give- yes, give away a bunch of grolsch bottles for free! Should we assume that they are stolen as well?

Gee whiz, talk about jumping to conclusions.

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If they are not stolen then the seller can or should be able to.

• Produce a receipt for the purchase of the items.
• Give a receipt for the sale of the items.

If he can't or won't then they are probably stolen.

Some one please do a FAQ for buying kegs!!!!