(Home made) PBW - safe for glass? (Safe in general?)

So having run out of PBW, I encountered several interesting threads about the stuff. Five Star themselves say that PBW is basically 70% percarbonate (aka Oxyclean) and 30% sodium metasilicate, which (supposedly) counteracts hard water, which causes the haze a lot of folks see when using straight Oxy.

The sodium metasilicate source of choice seemed to be Red Devil TSP/90. I swung by my local Ace, and there it was on the shelf. $4.59 for a 1lb bag. This basically gives me a 4lb tub of "PBW" for that price, since there's always a Costco box of Oxy at home. Hooray!

Anyways, I get home, mix them up, and get them put away. But as I'm cleaning up, I notice the back of the Red Devil bag - in big, red, all caps, bold lettering:

AVOID ALL CONTACT WITH WINDOWS, MIRRORS, AND OTHER GLASS SURFACES.

Wha wha whaaa? I've used PBW on my carboys without issue before! I went to Red Devil's site, and got the MSDS sheet for TSP/90, and sure enough, it's 100% sodium metasilicate.

Has anyone used this mixture before? If so, any problems with it? Considering I only invested less than $5 in this, I have no problem ditching it if it's going to damage my equipment!

I use that mixture all the time. In addition to the brewery, I keep some in the kitchen for cleaning baked on food in baking dishes and the crock pot. My wife calls it "Magic Powder."

Gonna follow along and see if the early testers have all their fingers in a few weeks.

So is this a known way to emulate PBW. I have never heard of this.....

Scut_Monkey said:

So is this a known way to emulate PBW. I have never heard of this.....

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It *seems* to be a known way of emulating it. God knows I found enough threads on the subject, when I was Googling around (I was looking for a 55lb tub of PBW, just to see how much it was, and saw a thread where someone was decrying PBW as a waste of money, which led to further investigating.)

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59313
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7215
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=80109

These are just a couple of the threads I snagged from my history - there's plenty more. Lots of testimonials on how folks have contacted Five Star, got the "recipe" from them, and made their own. Some change the ratio - 50/50, or one part TSP/90 to two parts Oxy - but plenty of folks seem to be using it.

But my tub o' PBW sure as hell doesn't have a big "DO NOT USE ON GLASS!" warning on it.

That said, that warning is on a package of 100% sodium metasilicate, not a diluted down version. I mean, if Five Star are saying "Yes, PBW is 70/30 sodium percarbonate/sodium metasilicate" then surely the homemade version using those exact ingredients should be the same?

Maybe I'll just sacrifice one of my old pint glasses - put some of the homemade stuff in there, let it sit overnight, and see what happens.

ubermick said:

Maybe I'll just sacrifice one of my old pint glasses - put some of the homemade stuff in there, let it sit overnight, and see what happens.

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Very cool. I think the pint idea would be a good test. Let us know if you do it. I'm interested to potentially make some of this.

I've been experimenting with this mixture for a little while now. I started with 60% oxi / 40% RedDevil (which I think is about the ratio of the Austin Homebrew cleaner). then 65% / 35%, and now 70% / 30%.

I'd have to say the 70% / 30% is best so far. They all have seemed to clean great and not have any problems, but the earlier versions we're definitely harder on the skin.

I've had carboys soaking in these solutions overnight as well as using a pump based carboy/keg cleaner on it without any problems.

I wonder if the problem with glass is at a higher concentration of the RedDevil

ubermick said:

Maybe I'll just sacrifice one of my old pint glasses - put some of the homemade stuff in there, let it sit overnight, and see what happens.

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Do it as hot as you can as this is where the sodium metasilicate can casue problems with glass.

Well, I filled a pint glass with hot water from the tap. Let it run for a while, getting as hot as it can get, and then added about a quarter of the volume from the hot water dispenser. Dropped a thermometer in there, and it was 155. Tossed in a tablespoon of the home made PBW, stirred it in, let it sit.

Next morning, no ill effects to the glass, at least none that I saw. Not all of the cleaner had dissolved, and some of the crystals were stuck to the side of the glass, but they rinsed off without an issue.

I'm gonna try another round with a mason jar, and near boiling water, see what's what.

Sounds like I need a box of Red Devil TSP to go with my costco box of oxyclean.
TSP used to be "tri sodium phosphate".

Just out of curiosity, did you do your ratios by weight or by volume? I'm thinking this will save me some money...

Hmm, sounds interesting. PBW is crazy expensive. If I could get someting that works the same for less that would be awesome

About the no glass thing - I'm guessing that is for the pure Red Devil TSP/90, not diluted.

I think the biggest question still is what is the best ratio to emulate PBW? It seems pretty straight forward otherwise as I think 5 Star has stated in the past these are the ingredients in PBW. Maybe I'm wrong though. I would like to try this to see if it improves the rinsing and cleaning.

Well, like I said earlier, according to "teh interwebz" (therefore it must be true) it's 70% Sodium Percarbonate, 30% Sodium Metasilicate. Therefore the 70/30 of Oxy to TSP/90 seems to be the ACTUAL formula (Since Oxy's 100% (ish) sodium percarbonate, and the Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% (ish) Sodium Metasilicate.)

Anyways - mason jar test came out fine. Mason jar containing near boiling water, added a tablespoon of the homemade PBW blend, shook the everloving ****e out of it, and let it sit until this morning. Made sure everything was dissolved, and there were no issues (that I can see) with the glass. So screw it, I'm using it from here on in.

Even if it's just for cleaning out the keggles, etc. and I use PBW for the glass, it still stretches PBW a lot further than normal.

phrogpilot73 said:

Just out of curiosity, did you do your ratios by weight or by volume? I'm thinking this will save me some money...

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I measured by weight. I used a 16oz bag of the TSP/90, and using some good ol' math calculated that I needed about 37oz of Oxy to hit the 70/30 ratio. Poured both into to a large container where I mixed 'em thoroughly for a minute or so. I wore a facemask (just one of the cheaper paper ones you use when painting, since there was one right there on my workbench as I was doing this) since it did throw up some dust during the mixing process, and I'd rather not have it in my lungs. Then poured the mixture into a container, along with the handy Oxy scoop, and will be using it for my next brewday.

In terms of savings, it's pretty damned impressive. Even if you were doing this from scratch - a 14lb box of Oxy from Costco is about $16, which if you mix with 6lbs of TSP/90 (they do sell 4lb bags) at a cost of around $20, you end up with 20lbs of "homemade" PBW for $36.

I pay $20 for a 4lb jar of PBW, so to get the same amount, it'd set me back $100.

The caution would be to pay attention to your TSP substitute. From my research, Red Devil TSP/90 is the ONLY one I could find that's 100% sodium metasilicate. The stuff carried by all the local hardware stores like Osh, Home Depot, Lowes, and even some of the Ace Hardware shops, were different brands, and looking up their MSDS gave different ingredients. I'm sure you can use one of them in a pinch, but YMMV.

And also, I'd be sure and do what I did if you mix a batch of this up - do a couple of test runs on some glass items you don't care about.

ubermick said:

Well, like I said earlier, according to "teh interwebz" (therefore it must be true) it's 70% Sodium Percarbonate, 30% Sodium Metasilicate. Therefore the 70/30 of Oxy to TSP/90 seems to be the ACTUAL formula (Since Oxy's 100% (ish) sodium percarbonate, and the Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% (ish) Sodium Metasilicate.)

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Depending on the brand of oxyclean you are using its in different ratios.

OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover is:
55-65% Sodium carbonate
30-40% Sodium carbonate peroxygydrate
2-4% Ethoxylated Alcohol

Sun Oxi Free (what I use) is:
60% sodium carbonate
40% sodium percarbonate

I'm not aware of any product out there that is 100% sodium percarbonate, other than buying the raw ingredient by iteself.

PBW also has some surfactant added to it aside from the sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate.

Bokonon said:

Depending on the brand of oxyclean you are using its in different ratios.

OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover is:
55-65% Sodium carbonate
30-40% Sodium carbonate peroxygydrate
2-4% Ethoxylated Alcohol

Sun Oxi Free (what I use) is:
60% sodium carbonate
40% sodium percarbonate

I'm not aware of any product out there that is 100% sodium percarbonate, other than buying the raw ingredient by iteself.

PBW also has some surfactant added to it aside from the sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate.

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This is good info, thank you. Do you have any good sources for 100% sodium percarbonate that you've used? A quick search came up with around 1.99 per lb.

gwood said:

This is good info, thank you. Do you have any good sources for 100% sodium percarbonate that you've used? A quick search came up with around 1.99 per lb.

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I just use the Sun OxiFree that I get from Biglots or the dollar store. Works good enough for me.

I bought some " SUN Oxygen Cleaner " and Lundmark TSP Hard Surface cleaner from Acehardware. I used a 2 teaspoons Sun oxygen cleaner to 1 teaspoon TSP in my carboy last night after I transfered to keg. and by the time I went bed all the crud was off the top of the carboy...

this ROCKS>

-=Jason=-

EDIT: I just got off the phone with LundMarkWax and their TSP is 100% Sodium metasilicate
http://www.lundmarkwax.com/pdf/3287.pdf

gwood said:

This is good info, thank you. Do you have any good sources for 100% sodium percarbonate that you've used? A quick search came up with around 1.99 per lb.

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Hate to bring up a very old thread... but Pool supply houses should have it in giant bags.

OLD but VERY GOOD thread.... I guess I can stop searching for the best price on 50lb bulk PBW!!!!!

would someone who is ambitious (because I am far from it) list the price per lb of PBW and this oxy-clean free + TSP solution?

Thanks

FWIW I have made my own and it didn't work nearly as well as the real stuff.

PBW has more than 2 things in it. I usually buy it in bulk during grain buy time.

tasq said:

FWIW I have made my own and it didn't work nearly as well as the real stuff.

PBW has more than 2 things in it. I usually buy it in bulk during grain buy time.

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Does it?

FredTheNuke said:

Does it?

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Yep... other surfactants and rinse aids. There is a podcast with the guy from Five Star floating around somewhere.

tasq said:

Yep... other surfactants and rinse aids. There is a podcast with the guy from Five Star floating around somewhere.

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Ahh! One of those sales dudes told ya so... They invented phosphates. Both Tri and Di...

FredTheNuke said:

Ahh! One of those sales dudes told ya so... They invented phosphates. Both Tri and Di...

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Have you made your own and compared the results? I have.

You can do, or think whatever you'd like. I have nothing to prove to you, I'm just sharing my experience.

Happy New Beer.

ryno1ryno said:

would someone who is ambitious (because I am far from it) list the price per lb of PBW and this oxy-clean free + TSP solution?

Thanks

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About $2 to $2.50 a pound using red devil tsp/90 and oxy clean free.

About $5 to $7 a pound for PBW.

Good thread

From the MSDS sheet

PRODUCT NAME: PBW
COMPOSITION: SILICATES, PHOSPHATES, AND SURFACTANTS
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This product may require submission of an annual report on the release of toxic chemicals that appear in 40 CFR 372 (for SARA 313). Components present in this product at a level which reporting under the statue are:
HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS: % TLV LIMIT IN AIR
Sodium Metasilicate (CAS# 006834-92-0) 30% 2 mg/m3 (PEL)
2 mg/m3 (OSHA)

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So the 30% is right. If you've got soft water (things rinse easily) the surfactants are probably not a big deal but you are probably still going to have to put more effort into rinsing. If you have hard water you're probably going t want to figure out the surfactant.

Add a few drops of glycerol to aid in rinsing should u feel the need.

I am seriously thinking that Oxyclean Free will be good enough for me as the time it takes to make a special batch of the TSP and Oxy seems to be similar to rinsing twice. The third rinse will be during sanitizing before use anyway.

Sound reasonable?

If you are an Amazon Prime member you can get 3 lbs. Oxi Clean and 1 lbs. TSP/90 delivered to your door for $13.44 which is $3.36 a pound for 4 lbs. That is actually cheaper than I can get it retail around here.
One of the cheapest places I can find has PBW for 20.99 plus $6.99 shipping (no HBS within 60 miles).
That's $27.98 which is $7.00 a pound for 4 lbs.

You can buy a 8lb container of PBW from Midwest on Amazon ( http://amzn.com/B0064O7XRY ) for $36.99 plus $10.91 shipping which comes out to $5.99/lb. That's the cheapest price I have found yet. I'd ask your LHBS how much a 8lb container would be because you might be able to save on shipping costs if their price is reasonable.

If you really want to stock up, you can buy a 50lb bucket of PBW from a variety of places. CHIcompany ( http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=375_18&products_id=781 ) seems to have a good price at about $200 including shipping to Oregon for me, which comes out to $4/lb which gets it down to almost the same price as the homemade stuff it seems. It will take you a good long while to get through it though, unless you split it up with some brewing buddies.

worxman02 said:

If you really want to stock up, you can buy a 50lb bucket of PBW from a variety of places. CHIcompany ( http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=375_18&products_id=781 ) seems to have a good price at about $200 including shipping to Oregon for me, which comes out to $4/lb which gets it down to almost the same price as the homemade stuff it seems. It will take you a good long while to get through it though, unless you split it up with some brewing buddies.

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But who really wants to spend 200 bones on cleaner?

Oxyclean Free just needs to be rinsed one extra time... so I'm think I'm just gonna get the stuff from Wal mart and call it a day.

FYI... my Wal Mart super center has a TSP knock off.

What about this substitute from Wal Mart:

Savogran Liquid TSP Substitute. (Says don't eat. But of course, you shouldn't eat any of the cleaners).

It has 38% EDTA - Ethylenediamine tetra acetic acid dipotassium salt
dihydrate

And the rest sodium metasilicate

http://whatsinproducts.com/msds.php?brandId=10627

worxman02 said:

You can buy a 8lb container of PBW from Midwest on Amazon ( http://amzn.com/B0064O7XRY ) for $36.99 plus $10.91 shipping which comes out to $5.99/lb. That's the cheapest price I have found yet. I'd ask your LHBS how much a 8lb container would be because you might be able to save on shipping costs if their price is reasonable.

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I don't have a LHBS. Nearest one is 60 miles away.

ryno1ryno said:

FYI... my Wal Mart super center has a TSP knock off.

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What is the name of this product?

aubiecat said:

What is the name of this product?

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See #36.

Great Thread