Help me understand gypsum in an IPA?

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Ski12568

Ski12568

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When adding gypsum to an IPA to enhance the bitterness, what does this mean? Does this mean that the bitterness will linger in your mouth a bit longer? Does it mean the bitterness will be smoother?
My favorite IPA right now is Bell's Two Hearted because of how smooth and non-lingering the bitterness is. To replicate this in my recipe, do I add some gypsum or stay away from it? Or is it their bittering hop being low on co-humulone? Yeast? Thanks for the help! :mug:
 
Well, it all depends upon the base water that you are using. Get a water report or have it tested to determine what you are starting with first. Many with soft water or with water that is low in sulphate/higher in chloride will notice that their IPAs don't have a distinct hop presence. I would describe it as "pop". Sharpness, distinct bitterness, hops more prominent than malt, spiciness would be some descriptors I would use to describe it. With low sulphate levels the bitterness and hop presence is "softer".
Others will chime in here to help more, but checking out the Brewer's Association book on water or one of the water calculators should help you determine what you might need to do to turn out a great IPA.
I believe Bell's Two Hearted is all Centennial hops or at least features them- there are a few clone recipes floating around that should work for you if you have the water profile correct.
 
I wouldn't go adding salts without knowing what your base water is. You can try using distiller or reverse osmosis water and building from scratch, but that can take a bit of book learnin'. I've heard you can try adding a pinch of salts to a beer and taste what the difference is. I've never done it, but if you're curious and adventurous...
 
I would recommend tracking down the water primer on HBT. It's a really good starting point.
 
Northern Brewer's Dead Ringer is supposed to be a clone of Two-Hearted. It's pretty dang good too if you like the Two Heart. I don't know if the Bell's is all Centennial, but I know the Dead Ringer is. I've had both and my taste buds tell me they're very close. It's still one of my favorite beers to brew.


Love Bell's Two-Hearted!
 
In the brew science section are all the answers you need. Gypsum can accentuate the hop flavors, but may not be advised for some waters. Historically, styles developed around the water. Burton-on-Trent had very hard, calcium rich water, which lended itself to hoppy beers. Early home brewing recipes typically have you add gypsum, because it helps for many waters. But depending upon what you have in your water, it could make it worse, for example, screwing up your mash pH or making the beer astringent.

Nice brewing water spreadsheets and knowing your own water chemistry is what serious Brewers do today. Little chemistry knowledge needed.
 
I use distilled water and the water chemistry primer. Just started learning the Bru'n Water spreadsheet with distilled water. I hit my pHs just fine.

What I want to know is if the bitterness enhancing gypsum does is the reason a lot of IPA bitterness lingers in my mouth, something Two Hearted does not do. If it does then I want to lower the amount I use in my next IPA. Thanks for the help.
 
Next bells two hearted i'm doing will be FWH'ed for a smoother bitterness.
 
Gypsum does help make the hops "pop" as mentioned, it helps lend a dryer finish (not emphasizing the sweetness/maltiness like CaCl does). This helps the hops shine through. As stated, it wont benefit to use gypsum unless knowing your water. Read up in the water section, and if need be, start out with RO water. Brewing programs like Brun Water are ideal for calculating mineral additions for desired water profiles.
 
Ski12568 said:
When adding gypsum to an IPA to enhance the bitterness, what does this mean? Does this mean that the bitterness will linger in your mouth a bit longer? Does it mean the bitterness will be smoother?
My favorite IPA right now is Bell's Two Hearted because of how smooth and non-lingering the bitterness is. To replicate this in my recipe, do I add some gypsum or stay away from it? Or is it their bittering hop being low on co-humulone? Yeast? Thanks for the help! :mug:
Click to expand...

The sulfate from gypsum additions does not actually make beer more bitter, but it does dry the drinker's palate and that improves the drinker's perception of bitterness. In hoppy and bittered styles, sulfate tends to be a welcome addition to brewing water.

I find that the smoothness of bittering is more a function of the hop and of the pH of the wort. If the pH is too high or if there is high cohumulone in the hops, those can be reasons for the bitterness to be coarser or harsher.

In my opinion, Two Hearted does benefit from a healthy concentration of sulfate in the brewing water. I'd guess it was at least 250 ppm.
 
mabrungard said:
I find that the smoothness of bittering is more a function of the hop and of the pH of the wort. If the pH is too high or if there is high cohumulone in the hops, those can be reasons for the bitterness to be coarser or harsher.
Click to expand...


Would I want to try and shoot for a higher mash pH, or adjust the wort pH after the mash with something like calcium hydroxide? If so, what wort pH would be a good starting point?
 
Ski12568 said:
Would I want to try and shoot for a higher mash pH, or adjust the wort pH after the mash with something like calcium hydroxide? If so, what wort pH would be a good starting point?
Click to expand...

The only reason you MIGHT need to add an alkali to mashing water when brewing an IPA or PA is when starting with really low alkalinity water and adding a bunch of gypsum. Then all that extra calcium might drive the pH down a bit too low. For most pale beer brewing, an alkali is not needed.
 
I brewed my first IPA using the water chemistry primer (pure RO water). I added the suggested amount of CaCl and gypsum. But my mash PH was a little low. I'm thinking of just adding the CaCl to the mash, then adding the gypsum to the boil for the desired hops pop effect. Sound reasonable? Cheers.
 
Be careful, you can't really cheat the chemistry. Adding the additions to the kettle just means that the kettle wort pH will be driven down there.

While keeping the mash pH in an ideal range is important, in these hop focused beers, its still important to keep the kettle wort pH up when high calcium salt additions are trying to push it down. Including the correct amount of mash alkalinity or reducing the total addition of calcium and magnesium salts is necessary to keep the pH up when you are targeting high sulfate.
 
VegasBrew1 said:
I brewed my first IPA using the water chemistry primer (pure RO water). I added the suggested amount of CaCl and gypsum. But my mash PH was a little low. I'm thinking of just adding the CaCl to the mash, then adding the gypsum to the boil for the desired hops pop effect. Sound reasonable? Cheers.
Click to expand...

I've not used the water chemistry primer, instead using EZ Water Calculator (I assume Bru'n water is similar). I always hit my mash pH and get high efficiency. I play around alot with how much gypsum, CaCl2 and Magnesium Sulfate (Epson Salts) to add, depending upon what malts I use and what I'm looking for. You can add mash additions separately from sparge additions in EZWater Calc. I usually put sparge additions into the boil.

The Chloride to Sulfate ratio is what one plays around with to increase or decrease perceived bitterness. I used to go with a very low ratio (crisp hop bite) but lately I've evolved closer to a balanced ratio. Seems to go along with massive late hop additions, low Cohumulone and First Wort Hops techniques to give more hop flavor and less bite. (OK, I'm a hophead:rockin:)

Anyway, try the spreadsheets if you haven't. Easier to see what's going on, IMHO, as long as you don't view the numbers as absolutes. You'll have to play around a bit with additions that don't screw up mash pH yet get you in the ballpark for what you are looking for. You might look at the earlier (2.0) Water Calc and the Bru'n Water spreadsheets as well, which have Chloride to Sulfate ratio guidelines.
 
I enjoy bitterness, but I do not like when it lingers in the back of my mouth after taking. A drink. The version I have shows the so4/Cl ratios. Would I want the ratio higher or lower to achieve that?

Also, what wort pH would you suggest? I read that hop solubility increases with pH. Do I eat to have a higher pH wort and what starting point?
 
Ski12568 said:
I use distilled water and the water chemistry primer. Just started learning the Bru'n Water spreadsheet with distilled water. I hit my pHs just fine.

What I want to know is if the bitterness enhancing gypsum does is the reason a lot of IPA bitterness lingers in my mouth, something Two Hearted does not do. If it does then I want to lower the amount I use in my next IPA. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

I too started using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet recently, you say you hit your pHs just fine, do you mean the Expected Mash pH on the Water Adjustment sheet? Did you add any acid? The reason I ask is that I have made three 5 gallon batches using the adjustments from the spreadsheet and the expected mash pH is around 5.3 to 5.4 something. I have used three different sets of adjustments and my mash pH (BIAB) is always 5.8. I have a water report and my water pH is 7.9. I am missing something here but I don't know what. Any help and insight will be appreciated. Cheers.
 
TennBrewer said:
I too started using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet recently, you say you hit your pHs just fine, do you mean the Expected Mash pH on the Water Adjustment sheet? Did you add any acid? The reason I ask is that I have made three 5 gallon batches using the adjustments from the spreadsheet and the expected mash pH is around 5.3 to 5.4 something. I have used three different sets of adjustments and my mash pH (BIAB) is always 5.8. I have a water report and my water pH is 7.9. I am missing something here but I don't know what. Any help and insight will be appreciated. Cheers.
Click to expand...

How do you check mash pH? It's really suspect that all of your readings are "5.8" regardless of grainbill or water, so I suspect that your pH meter is at fault.
 
Ski12568 said:
I enjoy bitterness, but I do not like when it lingers in the back of my mouth after taking. A drink. The version I have shows the so4/Cl ratios. Would I want the ratio higher or lower to achieve that?
Click to expand...

The Chloride to Sulfate ratios in the 2.0 spreadsheet shows:

Below .5 - Very Bitter
.5-.7 Bitter
.77-1.33 - Balance
1.33-2.0 - Malty
Above 2.0 - Very Malty

Sulfate to Chloride ratios would obviously be reversed, which I think is how Bru'n Water shows it. Basically, more sulfate increases bitterness perception.

These are pretty arbitrary, in my opinion, which is maybe why tH left the chart out of 3.0. This isn't like specific gravity or temperature, where the number is very significant. You can tell a clear difference between very bitter and very malty, but you have more control with how much hops you put in, I think. Still, it's another tool to help fine tune your flavor profile.
 
I think the CL:So4 ratio is not necessarily crap, but misunderstood. As martin has said, it's more of a dryness feeling when sulfate levels are increased. This goes well with the sensation of bitterness and seems to increase hop presence. To me it can be described as a drier feeling.

Bells Two Hearted benefits from a good amount of mouthfeel and malt/crystal sweetness, which is different from a lot of West Coast style IPAs that are geared more toward being drier and more bitter. 2H is not an overly bitter IPA, while still having a decent amount of hop flavor (By today's standard, which IMO is different from where it was 5-10 years ago.)

If you want a beer more like Bells 2H try mashing at 155 and using a bit of crystal (I can't recall but off the top of my head I think it calls for .5 lbs of 40L, maybe 20L.) Then shoot for a balanced beer profile in Bru'nwater. The dry/hoppy profile is more for West Coast IPAs I think.
 
Homercidal said:
I think the CL:So4 ratio is not necessarily crap, but misunderstood. As martin has said, it's more of a dryness feeling when sulfate levels are increased. This goes well with the sensation of bitterness and seems to increase hop presence. To me it can be described as a drier feeling.

Bells Two Hearted benefits from a good amount of mouthfeel and malt/crystal sweetness, which is different from a lot of West Coast style IPAs that are geared more toward being drier and more bitter. 2H is not an overly bitter IPA, while still having a decent amount of hop flavor (By today's standard, which IMO is different from where it was 5-10 years ago.)

If you want a beer more like Bells 2H try mashing at 155 and using a bit of crystal (I can't recall but off the top of my head I think it calls for .5 lbs of 40L, maybe 20L.) Then shoot for a balanced beer profile in Bru'nwater. The dry/hoppy profile is more for West Coast IPAs I think.
Click to expand...

I've made a two clones of two hearted. The one with the Chico/US05/WPL001/west coast yeast was not that close, but the one with the recommended Two Hearted yeast was close to spot on.

I also think characterizing "west coast" style IPAs as dry and bitter is not doing them justice. Unfortunately, some emulating the style just throw a lot of hops in early to get the IBUs up. But the better ones produce complex hop candy flavor and aroma without any bitter aftertaste.
 
In a pale, hop forward ale like an American IPA, gypsum can (and most likely will) add to the ease of drinkability by boosting dryness on the palate. The trick is knowing what amount of sulfate to target to suit your personal tastes. This can be anywhere from 150-350 ppm on average, or even higher in some cases. Stay toward the higher end if most of your IPAs come off as too sweet or malty with not enough hop pop. The added sulfate will not create a harsh bitterness if used within reason. But the gypsum addition will boost water hardness, which is a great thing for an IPA. For this style, high hardness = good... high alkalinity = bad.
 
bobbrews said:
In a pale, hop forward ale like an American IPA, gypsum can (and most likely will) add to the ease of drinkability by boosting dryness on the palate. The trick is knowing what amount of sulfate to target to suit your personal tastes. This can be anywhere from 150-350 ppm on average, or even higher in some cases. Stay toward the higher end if most of your IPAs come off as too sweet or malty with not enough hop pop. The added sulfate will not create a harsh bitterness if used within reason. But the gypsum addition will boost water hardness, which is a great thing for an IPA. For this style, high hardness = good... high alkalinity = bad.
Click to expand...

Why is hardness a great thing in an IPA? As long as you have enough calcium (arguably) then hardness is not desirable in any style, especially if it comes in the form of Magnesium. If the water has low alkalinity and you raise the hardness by dumping a bunch of gypsum in you may have problems with depressed mash pH.

Like Martin already mentioned:

mabrungard said:
The only reason you MIGHT need to add an alkali to mashing water when brewing an IPA or PA is when starting with really low alkalinity water and adding a bunch of gypsum. Then all that extra calcium might drive the pH down a bit too low. For most pale beer brewing, an alkali is not needed.
Click to expand...

mabrungard said:
While keeping the mash pH in an ideal range is important, in these hop focused beers, its still important to keep the kettle wort pH up when high calcium salt additions are trying to push it down. Including the correct amount of mash alkalinity or reducing the total addition of calcium and magnesium salts is necessary to keep the pH up when you are targeting high sulfate.
Click to expand...
 
orangehero said:
Why is hardness a great thing in an IPA? As long as you have enough calcium (arguably) then hardness is not desirable in any style, especially if it comes in the form of Magnesium. If the water has low alkalinity and you raise the hardness by dumping a bunch of gypsum in you may have problems with depressed mash pH.
Click to expand...

Most brewing water in the US is low in Calcium/Sulfate/Magnesium as it pertains to the typical starting/recommended water profile for the IPA style, and therefore, the hardness is likely lower than optimal. This is especially true if the brewer is using RO or Distilled water.

Of course you have to be very careful about adding too much Magnesium, but I find that Calcium and especially Sulfate levels are either 1) too low for optimal yeast health, and/or 2) too low to be a beneficial contributor to aid hop bite/dryness for the style. Adding gypsum (and maybe epsom salts), as needed of course, is typically never a bad choice for an A-IPA.

mabrungard said:
In hoppy and bittered styles, sulfate tends to be a welcome addition to brewing water.

In my opinion, Two Hearted does benefit from a healthy concentration of sulfate in the brewing water. I'd guess it was at least 250 ppm.
Click to expand...
 
RichBenn said:
I've made a two clones of two hearted. The one with the Chico/US05/WPL001/west coast yeast was not that close, but the one with the recommended Two Hearted yeast was close to spot on.

I also think characterizing "west coast" style IPAs as dry and bitter is not doing them justice. Unfortunately, some emulating the style just throw a lot of hops in early to get the IBUs up. But the better ones produce complex hop candy flavor and aroma without any bitter aftertaste.
Click to expand...

I am not disparaging West Coast IPAs when I say they are drier and more bitter, but merely comparing them to Two Hearted, which would be considered more malty and having more mouthfeel, or body, than the average West Coast style IPA.

Whether the beer has a bunch of bittering hops thrown in is not a factor. What defines ANY American IPA is the amount of late hops thrown in!

I've done Two Hearted several times and haven't been disappointed by any of my efforts, but since adding more gypsum and actually mashing lower, I found it tasted better to me, even with a bit of Crystal. I think mashing higher only created too much body (Or my tastes in IPAs have shifted a bit.)
 
Yooper said:
How do you check mash pH? It's really suspect that all of your readings are "5.8" regardless of grainbill or water, so I suspect that your pH meter is at fault.
Click to expand...

Thx for the reply, I respect your advice as well as many others, I'm sure. It may very well be the meter, although there is one time a while back I used it for a batch in which I used the 5.2 pH Stabilizer product and the mash pH measured on this meter was 5.4. Others have commented on the use of this product being ineffective, but it lowered the pH in that instance but left the resulting beer with kind of a salty taste, could be from Sodium or Potassium (not going to use that stuff anymore). I use the BIAB method and mash in the boil kettle. At the end of the mash period, I take a small sample and cool it to room temp (~68), then immerse the meter probe and wait a couple o' minutes or so until the reading appears stable. I calibrated the meter according to the manufacturer's instructions (Etekcity 2011) and the supplied 4 and 7 solutions (at 68 degrees) when I first got the meter a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I mistakenly discarded the solutions so I haven't recalibrated since then. When I start the mashing, I usually remove the protective cap and let the meter sit in distilled water before I use it. I shake the water off and immerse it into the cooled wort. Amazon reviews are mixed, they either love it or hate it. No matter, I plan on replacing it with the Milwaukee MW102 which was often referred to in this venue and highly rated. Thank you for taking the time to help me with my dilemma.
 
Yooper said:
How do you check mash pH? It's really suspect that all of your readings are "5.8" regardless of grainbill or water, so I suspect that your pH meter is at fault.
Click to expand...

I got a water report a couple of weeks ago which showed my water pH at 7.9 so I got out my meter and checked the water. The meter drifted between 7.92 and 7.93 which is close enough for me.
 
orangehero said:
Why is hardness a great thing in an IPA? As long as you have enough calcium (arguably) then hardness is not desirable in any style, especially if it comes in the form of Magnesium.
Click to expand...

I agree that additional hardness is not necessary, but we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We want that high sulfate and it is best delivered with calcium and magnesium salts.

Don't be too hard on Magnesium. In a bittered beer like IPA, Mg is actually a very desirable component. We just need to respect its upper limit. 20 to 30 ppm Mg along with the sulfate when delivered via Epsom Salt is a pretty good way to deliver on both counts. Matt Chrispen just sent me some trials that he and some friends conducted with mineral-spiked beer that included a somewhat surprising conclusion that the elevated MgSO4 sample was preferred. Of course, the Mg level was still modest at around 30 ppm. Those of you with high Mg tap water, need to avoid adding any more Mg since your water could easily exceed that 40 ppm level where its flavor can be negative in beer.
 
Homercidal said:
Whether the beer has a bunch of bittering hops thrown in is not a factor. What defines ANY American IPA is the amount of late hops thrown in!
Click to expand...
While I agree with you, there is little in the BJCP guidelines about late hops. In fact, looking over the list of IPAs that are referenced for 14B American IPA, many have too much harsh bitterness that masks the hop flavors, IMHO, at least compared to the current "best of breed" West Coast IPAs. It's like thinking that great Mexican food is how much your mouth burns and for how long, vs. layers of chili flavors. Of course, the state of the art moves on, and what was previously a great beer is now considered good.

Of course my taste buds have shifted over the years, as well, so maybe it's that.

Homercidal said:
I've done Two Hearted several times and haven't been disappointed by any of my efforts, but since adding more gypsum and actually mashing lower, I found it tasted better to me, even with a bit of Crystal. I think mashing higher only created too much body (Or my tastes in IPAs have shifted a bit.)
Click to expand...

I mentioned this, but perhaps not totally clear that I perceive the yeast Bell's uses vs. west coast yeast has a big impact with mouth feel and lack of dryness. More than I've noticed with yeast variations on other IPAs. Haven't done any more than yeast comparison with Two Hearted, though, as I don't find it compelling enough of a base recipe to spend too much time on. Certainly experimenting with a single hop(Centennial) recipe better highlights the differences on hop character, so it's great to hear your experiences with the water changes and mash temps.
 
TennBrewer said:
Thx for the reply, I respect your advice as well as many others, I'm sure. It may very well be the meter, although there is one time a while back I used it for a batch in which I used the 5.2 pH Stabilizer product and the mash pH measured on this meter was 5.4. Others have commented on the use of this product being ineffective, but it lowered the pH in that instance but left the resulting beer with kind of a salty taste, could be from Sodium or Potassium (not going to use that stuff anymore). I use the BIAB method and mash in the boil kettle. At the end of the mash period, I take a small sample and cool it to room temp (~68), then immerse the meter probe and wait a couple o' minutes or so until the reading appears stable. I calibrated the meter according to the manufacturer's instructions (Etekcity 2011) and the supplied 4 and 7 solutions (at 68 degrees) when I first got the meter a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I mistakenly discarded the solutions so I haven't recalibrated since then. When I start the mashing, I usually remove the protective cap and let the meter sit in distilled water before I use it. I shake the water off and immerse it into the cooled wort. Amazon reviews are mixed, they either love it or hate it. No matter, I plan on replacing it with the Milwaukee MW102 which was often referred to in this venue and highly rated. Thank you for taking the time to help me with my dilemma.
Click to expand...

Without calibration, I would blame the meter. It's simply not possible that no matter what the grainbill or water that your mash pH is always 5.8. Meters should be calibrated at each brewday, and not just once. Even then, a cheaper meter can "drift" and should be checked in the buffer even during the brewday if this is suspected.

Without a properly calibrated meter, the pH reading is useless I"m afraid.

When I use bru'nwater, my predicted mash pH is usually pretty close to the actual.
 
Thanks for the reply. Newb to water chemistry that I am, I forgot I can add the recommended CaCl and Gypsum and just lower my addition of lactic acid. Problem solved.
 
I am trying not to hijack but...

I found this thread while researching why my brew house efficiency shoots through the roof on hoppy styles, the latest just happens to be a Bell's TH clone. I really like the specific discussion here on gypsum and it's effects.

I have run through just about every other factor I can think of: crush, grain potential, improper recipe scaling, sparge technique, etc. You might think it's odd that I point that out but after going back through my previous twelve brews, the three that have ridiculously high efficiency were two pale ales and an IPA, all dosed with copious amounts of gypsum. Just for background...I use RO (my muni tap water is WAY too variable to rely on) and Bru'n Water to create my water profiles.

Is there any validity to my thoughts here?
 
Hijack or not your observations make a lot of sense.
Mash pH is probably being put into more optimal range with your light/hoppy styles with addition of gypsum to enhance the hop perception. I'd be curious about the (true) composition of your RO water if there is such a major effect when already using Bru'n Water, though.
Here are a couple of references regarding mash pH and the effect on mash efficiency:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/05/07/mash-ph-and-why-it-matters-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/
 
pdxal said:
Hijack or not your observations make a lot of sense.
Mash pH is probably being put into more optimal range with your light/hoppy styles with addition of gypsum to enhance the hop perception. I'd be curious about the (true) composition of your RO water if there is such a major effect when already using Bru'n Water, though.
Here are a couple of references regarding mash pH and the effect on mash efficiency:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/05/07/mash-ph-and-why-it-matters-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

So, my RO comes from one of those grocery store machines. I pick it up in 5 gallon PET bottles for easy transport. I have checked with the supplier several times and receive the same answer each time "the delivered product has undetectable levels of minerals and ions," they seem very confident in their product. I will also point out that the screen on front of the machine gives service history and it's always up to date. Now, having said that, I wonder what "undetectable" actually means because surely it's not as pure as distilled. Right?

One thing that I'm working on is a pH meter (it was on my Christmas list to the wife). Obviously, without it we are guessing to some extent. However, I think it's well documented that Martin's spreadsheet is extremely accurate.

However, lets keep this conversation going, I love talking about this stuff!
 
You can buy a cheap TDS meter that will give you some idea of the actual purity of the water.
 
Perhaps Martin will chime in here.
It would appear, regardless of base water, gypsum addition boosts efficiency, likely by better acidification of mash. Light colored malts don't lower pH as much as darker malts, are the lower efficiency beers light color but without gypsum? Stouts and such with lots of roasted or crystal malts would tend to drive mash pH down and shouldn't be lower efficiency if the gypsum is indeed improving mash pH if I am understanding things correctly. Made any stouts with low efficiency?
 

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