Stout looks like an amber

Not sure what went wrong. This was my first beer. Here's my recipe:

7.1 lbs amber LME
1.0 lb flaked barley
1.0 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb crystal 120L
1.0 lb carapils

2.0 oz perle @ 90min

WLP080 cream yeast blend.

I went to take a gravity reading tonight, and it looks like an amber. Tastes like one, too . Does the recipe above look like it should make a dark beer?

nope... where did u get the receipe from?

How did you mash the grains? Too much water? I get 27 SRM Dark brown to black on my brew calculator.

Got the recipe from the LHBS. SRM was supposed to be 42.5

Mashed in 4 gallons of water at 150F for 30 mins.

It'll look much diff in a bigger glass vs the hydro jar. Sometimes dude looks like a lady lol.

Looks dark here


Not so much here


In a glass. Still MUCH lighter than expected.

Maybe yeast still in suspension?

I'm wondering if you used the full pound of roasted barley? Also, adding chocolate malt will darken your beer and is often/usually included in a stout recipe. I usually use a total of 1.25 of roasted barley and chocolate malt combined in a 5.5 gallon batch.

That recipe is basically a Guinness clone with the addition of a little crystal for sweetness and a bit of carapils to add a little body. With a full pound of roast the beer should be black. Even assuming a lightening in color for yeast in suspension, the pic of the glass shows a beer much lighter in color than it should have been.

Please describe how the grain was crushed and how you used it.

The color is pretty close to what you would get from using 100% amber malt extract, not seeing anything else, knowing your procedure, etc, my first guess would be that the grains were not crushed. That seems like an obvious thing, but I have seen it happen!

LHBS has a commercial grain mill that they picked up from a microbrew. They weighed out all of the grains and the extract for me, and crushed it for me. Looked like any crushed grain I've seen on youtube or similar.

I put those grains into a medium sized mesh bag, and steeped for 30 mins at 150F, then used a full kettle of 170F water to sparge.

Not sure how big of an issue it is, but the mesh bag I used was really full. I probably should have used two bags to allow for the grains to move a bit while steeping.

The recipe also called for 2 gallons of water to steep, but I had to use 4 because I'm using a 10 gallon pot, and 2 gallons wouldn't have covered all of the grain.

Lastly, I didn't realize that the hops weren't measured out, so I put 2 oz instead of the 1.5 the recipe called for.

Would those mistakes account for the color?

I've only ever done partial mash and all grain stouts but I'm guessing it is the packed grain bag not letting all the grain be in good contact with the water. You can always steep in a smaller pot and transfer to your boil kettle. And I think bigger bag or two bags as you said.

AgentHubcap said:

LHBS has a commercial grain mill that they picked up from a microbrew. They weighed out all of the grains and the extract for me, and crushed it for me. Looked like any crushed grain I've seen on youtube or similar.

I put those grains into a medium sized mesh bag, and steeped for 30 mins at 150F, then used a full kettle of 170F water to sparge.

Not sure how big of an issue it is, but the mesh bag I used was really full. I probably should have used two bags to allow for the grains to move a bit while steeping.

The recipe also called for 2 gallons of water to steep, but I had to use 4 because I'm using a 10 gallon pot, and 2 gallons wouldn't have covered all of the grain.

Lastly, I didn't realize that the hops weren't measured out, so I put 2 oz instead of the 1.5 the recipe called for.

Would those mistakes account for the color?

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No... no mistakes there, really. I have used pretty full grain bags before... And using more water really wouldn't hurt anything, in fact, it is probably better to use more water... were the grains in the bag all saturated when you dumped them? hmmm.... Maybe they gave you "special roast" instead of roast barley? It gives more of a red-brown than black color

chickypad said:

I've only ever done partial mash and all grain stouts but I'm guessing it is the packed grain bag not letting all the grain be in good contact with the water. You can always steep in a smaller pot and transfer to your boil kettle. And I think bigger bag or two bags as you said.

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^this^ sounds like it could be the issue. if those grains were packet tight, they really weren't steeped properly. also, 4 gal for steeping is a bit much. i second the idea of doing the steeping grains in a separate pot, using a 1.25q/lb ratio for the best results.

wailingguitar said:

No... no mistakes there, really. I have used pretty full grain bags before... And using more water really wouldn't hurt anything, in fact, it is probably better to use more water... were the grains in the bag all saturated when you dumped them? hmmm.... Maybe they gave you "special roast" instead of roast barley? It gives more of a red-brown than black color

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Yeah, all the grain seemed to be saturated, but I suppose that could be from pouring the sparge water over the bag.

The LHBS was really busy that day, so they could have messed up on the order.

The beer tastes great, so I'm not going to stress about it. I'll have to make the same one again after this to see if it comes out differently.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

^this^ sounds like it could be the issue. if those grains were packet tight, they really weren't steeped properly. also, 4 gal for steeping is a bit much. i second the idea of doing the steeping grains in a separate pot, using a 1.25q/lb ratio for the best results.

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That would make it just over 1 gallon of water.

That ratio makes sense for all-grain, but what about an extract?

When steeping grains, more water never hurts. My SOP for extract + specialty grains is, and has been since about '95 when I started doing full wort boils at home; get 100% of my water into my pot, get it warm (don't bother with checking temp at this point), hang bag or bags in, continue to heat. Hold temp in mash temp range for perhaps 15 minutes when hits 148F+, remove bags, turn heat back up, stir in extract, check volume, top up if needed, proceed to boil.

Using this procedure I can replicate virtually any of my AG recipes using extract + specialties. So, other than the possibility that the grain in the bag did not get saturated, I can see no fault in your procedure.

AgentHubcap said:

That would make it just over 1 gallon of water.

That ratio makes sense for all-grain, but what about an extract?

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make's perfect sense for steeping grains too. you can add water after the steep to get your boil volume right. if you steep grains in too large a volume of water, even if it's at the right temp, you run the risk of tannin extraction from the husks.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

make's perfect sense for steeping grains too. you can add water after the steep to get your boil volume right. if you steep grains in too large a volume of water, even if it's at the right temp, you run the risk of tannin extraction from the husks.

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Seriously, and with all respect, that is nothing to be concerned about. While I normally do AG, I have been steeping my grains in aprox 5G for over 15 years, and in about 2.5G for 6 or so years before that. I have never had an issue, nor have I known of anyone that did.

wailingguitar said:

Seriously, and with all respect, that is nothing to be concerned about. While I normally do AG, I have been steeping my grains in aprox 5G for over 15 years, and in about 2.5G for 6 or so years before that. I have never had an issue, nor have I known of anyone that did.

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if that works for you, great, keep doing it. but with all due respect, everything i've read says it's a bad idea, and for that reason i'm not gonna try it just to see. again, if it works for you, great, but my palate is sensitive enough to detect things like that. not saying yours isn't, just that mine would be offended by tannins.

tannins aside, extra water while steeping shouldn't make the beer lighter, right?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

if that works for you, great, keep doing it. but with all due respect, everything i've read says it's a bad idea, and for that reason i'm not gonna try it just to see. again, if it works for you, great, but my palate is sensitive enough to detect things like that. not saying yours isn't, just that mine would be offended by tannins.

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I understand that there are a lot of texts that say a lot of things, it has always been that way. I don't really know where that idea originated, and I am sure there are people that have good reasons for saying it is so... My practices are based first hand experiences that I have had both in the brewing industry and at home (both since '89). I have experimented with a number of "facts" that have been written down at some point and parroted along the way, trying to see if there was a discernible affect... a good bit of my experimentation was actually done at the commercial scale where both regular customers and my peers would have a chance to chime in. Why did I do this? It began when I was reading about hot side aeration and thought, "hmm... at Bell's we splashed the hell out of the wort both during lautering and knock out... did our beers go bad? No... WTH?" I have since learned from a Siebel instructor that A/B intentionally aerates hot wort... that really weirded me out, but I had no reason to doubt my friend's statement.

I am not saying that one way or the other is 'better', no... nor am I dissing anyone for what they have learned from the many sources. On the contrary, I give kudos to anyone that has the dedication to read and absorb as much as possible. Good on ya! Anything that drives the passion is great in my book!... the ultimate end of all the fooling around that I have done can be summed up in this one statement; "all that matters is what hits the glass"

wailingguitar said:

I am not saying that one way or the other is 'better', no... nor am I dissing anyone for what they have learned from the many sources. On the contrary, I give kudos to anyone that has the dedication to read and absorb as much as possible. Good on ya! Anything that drives the passion is great in my book!... the ultimate end of all the fooling around that I have done can be summed up in this one statement; "all that matters is what hits the glass"

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couldn't agree more with that. i think we all have things that we do that bend the "rules" a bit. and we all know that some of what's written is eventually disproven. so if something works, and good beer is the result, you'd be silly not to do it.
on the subject, i've never had a reason to use more than the recommended water/grist ratio. and i know that ratio produces great beer for me, so i stick with it. if it ain't broke, why fix it, right. just as if i found that it made great beer if i tried a 2q/lb or more ratio, and that made my brew day easier, i'd keep doing it. brewing practice is a process of learning through experience.

AgentHubcap said:

tannins aside, extra water while steeping shouldn't make the beer lighter, right?

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It depends how much is reduced by the boil volume later. Like if his recipe was meant for a 5 gallon batch but came out with 6 gallons in the fermenter.. It is all about ratio's as mentioned.

But I think it is from not high enough lovibond grains (my brewing software said 27 SRM which is dark brown to black) chocolate and/or black patent accompanied with the other grains would do the trick. Black patent alone is 500 lovibond and used mainly to impart color. I always use these two grains when I do a stout.

I'm getting 42 SRM from that recipe. This is 5 gallons, right?

AgentHubcap said:

Not sure what went wrong. This was my first beer. Here's my recipe:

7.1 lbs amber LME
1.0 lb flaked barley
1.0 lb roasted barley
0.5 lb crystal 120L
1.0 lb carapils

2.0 oz perle @ 90min

WLP080 cream yeast blend.

I went to take a gravity reading tonight, and it looks like an amber. Tastes like one, too . Does the recipe above look like it should make a dark beer?

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should have bumped up the crystal to 1 lb and added a half pound of chocolate malt and maybe went with dark LME

NordeastBrewer77 said:

make's perfect sense for steeping grains too. you can add water after the steep to get your boil volume right. if you steep grains in too large a volume of water, even if it's at the right temp, you run the risk of tannin extraction from the husks.

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this is flat out wrong. period. end of discussion.

eastoak said:

this is flat out wrong. period. end of discussion.

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i'm not going to argue with that. i know i've read more than one publication that says otherwise. i was giving the OP some advice based on what i've read, and how i brewed when i was still brewing extract. maybe it's something that doesn't really apply to extract brewers, i don't know, but when i hear the somethings not the best idea, i'm not one to rush out and try it 'just to see'. nor will i recommend someone else do that. simply trying to help the OP out with his/her question. now let's get back ON TOPIC and try to help the OP out instead of arguing opinion.

I've also steeped my grains in my full 6 gallon boil for all my extract batches. I've never had any off flavors, and hit my OG gravity quite regularly.

However the same is not true when mashing. It sounds like the OP attempted a partial mash, in which it requires a certain liquor to grist ratio for converting starches. Steeping in 4 gallons will impart color and a very small amount of flavors, but nothing else at that volume of water.

I should mention that I didn't do many partial mashes when I started brewing so I can't be certain if his processes were accurate.

Dougie63 said:

should have bumped up the crystal to 1 lb and added a half pound of chocolate malt and maybe went with dark LME

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That wouldn't hurt, but it is no way needed. Grain bill as OP listed is pretty much a Guinness clone, with the addition of cara pils and crystal. Has 1# roast barley according to his recipe... that's correct, beer SHOULD be black.

I seriously think that he was given the wrong grain, most likely "special roast" instead of "roast barley"


OP, was a significant portion of the grains very, very dark like coffee beans? Roast barley should be darker than a Hershey bar... special roast is a sort of red-brown

eastoak said:

this is flat out wrong. period. end of discussion.

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I think the theory behind this would be that it is possible, depending on the water, that the PH may not drop low enough and that would lead to tannin extraction.

wailingguitar said:

That wouldn't hurt, but it is no way needed. Grain bill as OP listed is pretty much a Guinness clone, with the addition of cara pils and crystal. Has 1# roast barley according to his recipe... that's correct, beer SHOULD be black.

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Agreed. You can go with more dark grains but I've done stouts with 1 lb of roasted barley or 1 lb total roasted barley plus chocolate and they were very dark, and that's without the Amber LME or darker crystal. As I mentioned before these were partial mash but my software says extract with steeping should be same color.

wailingguitar said:

I seriously think that he was given the wrong grain, most likely "special roast" instead of "roast barley"

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that, my friend, sounds like it could be the culprit here!
sure wouldn't be the first time someone saw one of those grains and their brain processed the other. i almost did that to myself a few weeks ago in Midwest's grain room. using special roast in place of roasted barley in that recipe would sure make an amber beer.

wailingguitar said:

That wouldn't hurt, but it is no way needed. Grain bill as OP listed is pretty much a Guinness clone, with the addition of cara pils and crystal. Has 1# roast barley according to his recipe... that's correct, beer SHOULD be black.

I seriously think that he was given the wrong grain, most likely "special roast" instead of "roast barley"


OP, was a significant portion of the grains very, very dark like coffee beans? Roast barley should be darker than a Hershey bar... special roast is a sort of red-brown

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To be honest, I didn't really pay much attention to what he was doing. It was really busy, and my kid was acting up in the store.

Since I'm at my FG, I'm going to just bottle it and do the recipe again. This time I'll use a second bag to steep so the grains have some room to move around.

chickypad said:

I'm getting 42 SRM from that recipe. This is 5 gallons, right?

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Yeah nevermind don't trust hopvilles calculator... it didn't count the SRM from the amber LME. I did it again with Briess Amber LME with their calculator which had the SRM, came out to 37 now using this brew software.

Wow I wonder how many miss calculations I've had up to this point using Hopville :cross:

On the topic of letting the grains breath a bit in the bag...

I wonder if anyone uses a hop spider to put grains in, so you can stir them around while they are steeping? I guess in my steeping experience, we always had a large grain bag for several pounds of grain, but the results were the same. The grains would bunch up in the bag and since there wasn't an "opening" at the top of the grain bag, it was hard to get the grains well saturated.

Point is, since hop spiders are designed with a larger opening at the top, you might have better luck using one for grains and stir them while they're steeping. Never thought of that before, but maybe others have?

I see you are in Hillsboro. Where do you go for your LHBS?

Try F.H. Steinbart. Great store, however, its in east Portland.

I skimmed through this thread, not reading it all, but if you really used 1 lb of black roasted barley then there is just no way this would not be a black beer! I would guess you got something other than this. If it tastes great then perhaps you have hit on something?!

stevedasleeve said:

I skimmed through this thread, not reading it all, but if you really used 1 lb of black roasted barley then there is just no way this would not be a black beer! I would guess you got something other than this. If it tastes great then perhaps you have hit on something?!

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Black barley and roasted barley are two different grains. Although roasted barley is 300L (black barley 500L) it is still possible in consideration of the rest of grains in a recipe to not come out black.

Brew_4iT said:

Black barley and roasted barley are two different grains. Although roasted barley is 300L (black barley 500L) it is still possible in consideration of the rest of grains in a recipe to not come out black.

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While you are correct that black malt and roasted barley are not the same thing, 1# of roast barley in a 5 gallon batch is the appropriate amount for a Guinness or Beamish type stout... There is no reason, assuming correct grind and sufficient steeping of the grain, that the beer would be that amber color... NONE... there are only four possible culprits; the grain was not crushed properly, the grain didn't get saturated properly, the amount of roast was actually substantially less than 1#, or it was not in fact roast barley at all but a different grain altogether... the last, again, is the most likely culprit of the four.

I went back and looked at the receipt, and it looks like they subbed the 7.1lbs of amber LME with 6.85 gallons of golden light LME (4.0L) and 0.25 gallons of traditional dark LME (30.0L)

The rest of the ingredients list out as expected.

Brak23 said:

I see you are in Hillsboro. Where do you go for your LHBS?

Try F.H. Steinbart. Great store, however, its in east Portland.

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I've been going to brew brothers (I can practically walk there).