Pliny the Elder clone questions

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EricCSU

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Hey guys,
My dad is coming to see me on October 12 and he loves Double IPAs. He has never had Pliny but I think he would love it. I have never made the clone recipe, but I figure now is as good of a time as any. I will be brewing it sometime next week using the official clone recipe.

I have two questions:

1. I will be using an appropriate starter and my fermenting at 67F. What is the "peak" for this beer? How long after brewing is this beer it's best? I know my IPAs peak around 6 weeks and are good for another 4-6 weeks.

2. I don't have any simcoe and would really not like to buy any hops. I have a lot of hops in my freezer, so I will use a substitute from that stash. I know there is no true substitute for Simcoe and truly "cloning" the beer is not a big deal for me. I just want a great double IPA. What do you recommend from my current stash:

Magnum 12.1% (4-11) 370g
Northern Brewer 9.2% (1-11) 240g, 9% (3-11) 530g
Fuggles 4.7% (1-11) 272g
Centennial 9.7% (1-11) 117g, 8.8% (3-11) 525g
Amarillo 7.13% (1-11) 28g
Cascade 5.7% (4-11) 1 pound plus 111g, 5.4% (3-11) 522g
Citra 12.4% (1-11) 289g

Columbus 14.5% (3-11) 390g, 14% (6-11) 950g
Chinook 11% (3-11) 450g
US Golding 4.7% (3-11) 523g
Willamete 4.8% (3-11) 402g
Palisade 7.3% (3-11) 490g


Thanks for your help.

Eric
 
1. 6-7 weeks is pretty much perfect for an IIPA if you keg. 2-3 week primary, 2 week secondary (dry hop here), and 2 weeks in the keg. Drink them young, the hops fade fast.

2. You have most of the hops you need, we just need to replace the simcoe. Try:

3.5oz Columbus @ 90min
.75oz Columbus @ 45min
1.25 Centennial @ 30min (9.7% AA)
1.00 Centennial @ 0min
1.00 Amarillo @ 0min
1.50oz Citra @0min

Dry hop with lots of Centennial, Amarillo, and Citra. Basically we're just subbing Centennial for simcoe @30min, and amarillo and citra at 0min. I think you'll have a great IIPA.
 
I brewed the following and it came out awesome...

3.25oz Columbus @ 90min
.75oz Columbus @ 45min
.25 Columbus @ 30min
1oz Cascade @ 30 min
.5oz Cascade @ 0 min
.5oz EKGolding@ 0 min
1oz Columbus @ 0 min
.5oz Nugget (substitute amarillo) @0min

Dry hop with 1 oz Columbus, .5 oz EKGolding, .75 oz Cascade, .5 oz Willamette, .5 oz Nugget (substitute amarillo), .25 oz Citra
 
I brewed the following and it came out awesome...

3.25oz Columbus @ 90min
.75oz Columbus @ 45min
.25 Columbus @ 30min
1oz Cascade @ 30 min
.5oz Cascade @ 0 min
.5oz EKGolding@ 0 min
1oz Columbus @ 0 min
.5oz Nugget (substitute amarillo) @0min

Dry hop with 1 oz Columbus, .5 oz EKGolding, .75 oz Cascade, .5 oz Willamette, .5 oz Nugget (substitute amarillo), .25 oz Citra

I think the morale of that story is to grab a bunch of awesome hops and throw them in a beer it will be awesome :tank:
 
Based on what you have, I would use this schedule. I like chinooks to replace the simcoe at 30 because their AA% are close and that little touch of chinook will give a little punch of aggression with some pine that will lend nicely to the tropical fruit and citrus notes you get from citra. While simcoe gives off a lot of pine, I also find it adds some mango notes. The citra may be more passionfruit than mango, but it will play nicely with the floral centennials and the CTZ's dankness.

3.50 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 90 min.
.75 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. 45 min.
1.00 oz Chinook 11% A.A. 30 min.
1.00 oz Centennial 8.00% A.A. 0 min.
2.50 oz Citra 12.4% A.A. 0 min.

1.00 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)
1.00 oz Citra 12.4% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 Days Total)

.25 oz CTZ 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
.25 oz Citra 12.4% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
 
Magnum 12.1% (4-11) 370g
Northern Brewer 9.2% (1-11) 240g, 9% (3-11) 530g
Fuggles 4.7% (1-11) 272g
Centennial 9.7% (1-11) 117g, 8.8% (3-11) 525g
Amarillo 7.13% (1-11) 28g
Cascade 5.7% (4-11) 1 pound plus 111g, 5.4% (3-11) 522g
Citra 12.4% (1-11) 289g

Columbus 14.5% (3-11) 390g, 14% (6-11) 950g
Chinook 11% (3-11) 450g
US Golding 4.7% (3-11) 523g
Willamete 4.8% (3-11) 402g
Palisade 7.3% (3-11) 490g

I believe the correct answer is 'Yes'.
 
If you are kegging you can toss in some additional dry hops if you still have beer left and it has faded a bit. I did that on my last Pliny when I was brewing 10 gallon batches. I don't think I got to the second keg for at least 3 months.
 
I bought the "Pliny pack" of hops from farmhouse brewing supply. Waiting to receive it. Not really attempting a clone, as I've only tasted once and would be difficult to compare as it is unavailable where I live. Just think it'll make for a tasty IIPA: I think it's got CTZ,Centennial,Simcoe packaged into the respective additions. I bought some hops from freshops to add to the hop pack since I think it's for a 5 gallon batch. I was also going to run through the HopBack, and maybe throw some Williamette and Cascase in there.. Could not find any Simcoe leaf hops...

I'm not so interested in the hop schedule as the grain bill. I have some old issues of zymurgy and BYO where VC collaborates with the magazine to give a nice recipe, which as I recall had a correction in a later issue.

At any rate, I saw on the farmhouse brewing supply co, a link to a recipe, but the numbers don't seem to add up,
Specifically, they give an OG 1.070 and FG 0.011 and ABV 8~8.5% and using California ale, which only has an attenuation of 72-80%.
They call for 87% 2 row, 4% each of carapils and crystal 45", and 5% sugar.
Got to go dig through a pile of old magazines to find the Pliny issues, and double check on that.
The numbers though, just don't seem to be adding up to me. I get a higher FG and lower ABV even when I plug in 80% attenuation.
I'm planning to brew a 10 gallon batch, and pitch directly on my trub/yeast cake from a pale ale I'll be racking that day.

Any tips on the grain bill and how to get a FG 1.011 with an OG of 1.070 other than dosing the primary with dextrose or Candi syrup?

TD
 
I bought the "Pliny pack" of hops from farmhouse brewing supply. Waiting to receive it. Not really attempting a clone, as I've only tasted once and would be difficult to compare as it is unavailable where I live. Just think it'll make for a tasty IIPA: I think it's got CTZ,Centennial,Simcoe packaged into the respective additions. I bought some hops from freshops to add to the hop pack since I think it's for a 5 gallon batch. I was also going to run through the HopBack, and maybe throw some Williamette and Cascase in there.. Could not find any Simcoe leaf hops...

I'm not so interested in the hop schedule as the grain bill. I have some old issues of zymurgy and BYO where VC collaborates with the magazine to give a nice recipe, which as I recall had a correction in a later issue.

At any rate, I saw on the farmhouse brewing supply co, a link to a recipe, but the numbers don't seem to add up,
Specifically, they give an OG 1.070 and FG 0.011 and ABV 8~8.5% and using California ale, which only has an attenuation of 72-80%.
They call for 87% 2 row, 4% each of carapils and crystal 45", and 5% sugar.
Got to go dig through a pile of old magazines to find the Pliny issues, and double check on that.
The numbers though, just don't seem to be adding up to me. I get a higher FG and lower ABV even when I plug in 80% attenuation.
I'm planning to brew a 10 gallon batch, and pitch directly on my trub/yeast cake from a pale ale I'll be racking that day.

Any tips on the grain bill and how to get a FG 1.011 with an OG of 1.070 other than dosing the primary with dextrose or Candi syrup?

TD

The 72-80% attenuation number is based on an all-malt wort and will increase with the use of simple sugars, such as dextrose used in the recipe. However, I am still leery of getting down to 1.011 with WLP001, just as you are. Perhaps at a lower mash temp (145-147F), that could be achieved. Personally, I am going to use WLP007, because it attenuates much better. I have been able to get down that low several times with WLP007 and prefer the higher flocculation of WLP007 over WLP001. I know it is not the clone, but I think it will make a better beer.

Perhaps others who have brewed this recipe can chime in?

Eric
 
Right on with the lower mash temp. I'm going to do the same.
As I am planning to use my trub/yeast cake, I am hoping I hit a really low gravity with this "Pliny" attempt.
without looking it up, is the 007 the San Diego Super Yeast? I was thinking about that as well, but have never used it, and they state that the 001 really accentuates the hops.
I'm am thinking about abandoning the carapils entirely, and just adding a smidgen of crystal for color. Im don't have enough 2 row left, so will probably end up with half us 2 row pale malt, and the other half maris otter.
I might even dose the fermenter with dextrose or clear Candi syrup to get the ABV up to actual Pliny levels and to dry it out a bit.
Personally would be happy with a 1.070 that finished below 1.015 but nothing is worse in my opinion than a high FG, so the lower the better.

Also, any suggestions on hop back hops? I've ordered centennial, Columbus, cascade, and Williamette. I know it's not part of the recipe, but thought it would improve the aroma. I was thinking cascade would probably best contribute the aroma. I'm not sure what Columbus or centennial aromas are like ( I think they use cent in the celebration ale...) maybe a blend of them. Any commercial example that use Williamette for aroma hops??

thanks

TD
 
Right on with the lower mash temp. I'm going to do the same.
As I am planning to use my trub/yeast cake, I am hoping I hit a really low gravity with this "Pliny" attempt.
without looking it up, is the 007 the San Diego Super Yeast? I was thinking about that as well, but have never used it, and they state that the 001 really accentuates the hops.
I'm am thinking about abandoning the carapils entirely, and just adding a smidgen of crystal for color. Im don't have enough 2 row left, so will probably end up with half us 2 row pale malt, and the other half maris otter.
I might even dose the fermenter with dextrose or clear Candi syrup to get the ABV up to actual Pliny levels and to dry it out a bit.
Personally would be happy with a 1.070 that finished below 1.015 but nothing is worse in my opinion than a high FG, so the lower the better.

Also, any suggestions on hop back hops? I've ordered centennial, Columbus, cascade, and Williamette. I know it's not part of the recipe, but thought it would improve the aroma. I was thinking cascade would probably best contribute the aroma. I'm not sure what Columbus or centennial aromas are like ( I think they use cent in the celebration ale...) maybe a blend of them. Any commercial example that use Williamette for aroma hops??

thanks

TD

WLP007 is dry english ale. Stone uses that yeast and I have talked to quite a few brewpub brewers who like it because it flocs well, works fast, and attenuates well. I prefer it over 001 for most beers for that reason as well.

All of those hops work well for aroma. Surly uses Willamete for aroma for most of their beers. Sierra Nevada uses a combo of centennial and cascade for aroma and dry hops. Bell's Two Hearted is widely believed to use all centennial hops.

Eric
 
WLP007 is dry english ale. Stone uses that yeast and I have talked to quite a few brewpub brewers who like it because it flocs well, works fast, and attenuates well. I prefer it over 001 for most beers for that reason as well.

I'm also on the WLP007 bus, it's become my favorite ale yeast. It's actually very neutral if you ferment in the low 60s. It's attenuative, it's flocs out like peanut butter, and it ferments out quickly. What's not to like?
 
Thanks. Will have to try 007 sometime.

I think I will try using the cascade in the hop back, and add an additional 1 Oz of Columbus and Centennial into the 90 minute kettle addition. That way, the quantities I purchased will give me enough to repeat for a second batch. I'm sure I'll find something to do with the Williamette, though, I do not have surly be near me to try any, I might dry hop an amber ale I made to see what it does.

TD
 
I got to ferment usually at 72. I do have a small fridge with temp controller but only fits 5 gallons. Need another solution for controlling temps, like a chest freezer fermenter.
I will for sure try 007 yeast now. I know other folks swear by PacMan yeast too.

TD
 
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