How much Maris Otter in Partial Mash to tell?

I'm going to be brewing a pecan nut brown this weekend. The original recipe is AG, and all Maris Otter. I'm not able to do AG, but would like to do partial mash, BIAB style. I have a 34 qt Turkey Fryer, so I should be able to handle a lot of grains as is.

My question though, is how much Maris Otter should I use in a 5 gallon batch to be able to tell the difference? Should it be 25% of fermentables? Higher? Is it even worth it?

Tough question. For me the difference is noticeable but subtle. Obviously the more you use the better your results will be. If you have a 34 qt. turkey fryer kettle, what is stopping you from doing AG?

I'd shoot for half MO. You might be able to find MO extract, also.

I've found MO extract at Williams Brewing, thats about the only place on the net I could find it. Worked out great though.

My LHBS doesn't have MO extract, I'm pretty sure.

In all honesty, I probably could do all grain. It's just kinda scary... but you know, maybe I will try it. It'll have to be BIAB.

I guess I do have enough DME to make up for any poor efficiency. Hmm I'll have to think this over, and see if I have the guts to go for it.

I'm looking at about 6 lbs of MO, and about 2 lbs of specialty grains to do 50% MO... so maybe I should just go AG. Hmmm.

Take the leap into all grain... its not as scary as you think!

I would really recommend going AG. If you have a big cooler you should be able to convert it to an MLT for less than $20 and if you already have a big kettle that's all you need. I've never tried BIAB but it seems like a good idea.

It's also good to have the DME onhand in case you miss your gravity by a lot. I did the same. It'll be good for future brews and/or starters.

dantodd said:

I would really recommend going AG. If you have a big cooler you should be able to convert it to an MLT for less than $20 and if you already have a big kettle that's all you need. I've never tried BIAB but it seems like a good idea.

It's also good to have the DME onhand in case you miss your gravity by a lot. I did the same. It'll be good for future brews and/or starters.

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Problem is, I've already way overspent my brewing budget- and more equipment really isn't a possibility because of lack of space. So BIAB seems like a much more... possible solution.
I'll have to do some more reading before I decide one way or the other.

jamesnw said:

Problem is, I've already way overspent my brewing budget- and more equipment really isn't a possibility because of lack of space. So BIAB seems like a much more... possible solution.
I'll have to do some more reading before I decide one way or the other.

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Sounds like it's BIAB then. Don't forget the 5 gallon paint strainers at home depot are cheaper than large hops bags at your LHBS. I have no suggestions for BIAB as I've never tried.

jamesnw said:

Problem is, I've already way overspent my brewing budget- and more equipment really isn't a possibility

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Funny thing....i typed out this morning that you should just go AG...but got busy and never updated the post. Easy to piece together a cooler / any cooler for a tun. or w/ a 34 qt kettle and a big grain bag, you could do a modified BIAB batch sparge.

What equipment do you have....if you have a 34 qt kettle, I bet we could figure out a way to do all grain for a few dollars...do you own a cooler, or could you borrow one...a grain bag a cooler and a bucket perhaps you could do it. You can also put a braid on a syphon tube to sparge...not that difficult if you are handy. Dou you have a couple of large pots that you could heat some sparge water in?

Ok... here's what I'm thinking.

I'll put a paint strainer bag inside the boil basket that came with the turkey fryer. Mash the grains in there, and then bring up the temp to mash out- I've heard it does wonders for efficiency. Lift out the basket, and let it drain out in a pot. Dump those into the pot as well. Continue as normal.

Anyone see any problems with this process?

Doing this tomorrow. First time with Turkey Fryer, and it should be in the 30's, maybe snowing. Mmm.. Have a bottle of Sam Smith's Winter Welcome to keep me warm.

Anyone see any problems, have any suggestions on this? I'm particularly wondering about using the boil basket - has anyone tried it?

I'm hoping to be able to go home over lunch, and test out the turkey fryer, make sure it actually works before I start.

jamesnw said:

Ok... here's what I'm thinking.

I'll put a paint strainer bag inside the boil basket that came with the turkey fryer. Mash the grains in there, and then bring up the temp to mash out- I've heard it does wonders for efficiency. Lift out the basket, and let it drain out in a pot. Dump those into the pot as well. Continue as normal.

Anyone see any problems with this process?

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You're not sparging at all, so count on getting low efficiency, mashing out might help but not as much as sparging would. You'll get a concentrated wort but not much of it. It can work but keep in mind you'll have to use more grain to account for the lower efficiency, and you'll lose some of the initial dough-in water to the grain absorbing it and you wont get it back even if you let the bag drip to the last drop. If you have another large pot you can do a quasi batch sparge. After youve mashed out and drained the bag into the BK, sparge in pot#2 with as much water as you can. Also, just using (1) 5 gallon paint straining bag most likely wont be enough to hold all the grain for a 5 gallon batch.

Edit: You're boil kettle will most likely lose a lot of heat during the mash as well.

JoMarky said:

You're not sparging at all, so count on getting low efficiency, mashing out might help but not as much as sparging would. You'll get a concentrated wort but not much of it. It can work but keep in mind you'll have to use more grain to account for the lower efficiency, and you'll lose some of the initial dough-in water to the grain absorbing it and you wont get it back even if you let the bag drip to the last drop. If you have another large pot you can do a quasi batch sparge. After youve mashed out and drained the bag into the BK, sparge in pot#2 with as much water as you can. Also, just using (1) 5 gallon paint straining bag most likely wont be enough to hold all the grain for a 5 gallon batch.

Edit: You're boil kettle will most likely lose a lot of heat during the mash as well.

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My only thing big enough to sparge in is my bottleing bucket- not sure I want to have hot water in there.

I only have about 10 lbs of grain... you don't think that would fit in a 5 gallon paint straining bag? Hmm...

I'm going to wrap the pot in a towel during the mash, maybe keep the turkey burner on low heat.

5 gallon batch: 10lbs of grain(8lb MO, 2lb Crystal)
@ 50% Efficiency = 1.037
@ 40% = 1.03
@ 30% = 1.022

I've seen a lot of people have trouble breaking out of the 60's with a real mush tun and sparging.
Not to mention without sparging your going to have to top up the roughly 3 gallons of wort you will collect (from the mash in/mash out) with 3-4 gallons of straight water (instead of low gravity sprage runnings) before boiling it back down to 5 gallons, so in essence your still diluting your wort with 2 gallons of pure water.

I was assuming you were going to up your grains to try and account for the low efficiency you will see. I think 10lbs of grain in a 5lb bag would fit but would hold the grain tighter than you want, decreasing efficiency further. I would put the put with the top on in an old sleeping bag if you have one.

JoMarky said:

5 gallon batch: 10lbs of grain(8lb MO, 2lb Crystal)
@ 50% Efficiency = 1.037
@ 40% = 1.03
@ 30% = 1.022

I've seen a lot of people have trouble breaking out of the 60's with a real mush tun and sparging.
Not to mention without sparging your going to have to top up the roughly 3 gallons of wort you will collect (from the mash in/mash out) with 3-4 gallons of straight water (instead of low gravity sprage runnings) before boiling it back down to 5 gallons, so in essence your still diluting your wort with 2 gallons of pure water.

I was assuming you were going to up your grains to try and account for the low efficiency you will see. I think 10lbs of grain in a 5lb bag would fit but would hold the grain tighter than you want, decreasing efficiency further. I would put the put with the top on in an old sleeping bag if you have one.

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You really think I'll get efficiency that low? And I honestly have no concept of how much grain this will be physically, but some people are saying they can fit 33 lbs of grain (tightly, of course) in a 5 gallon bucket for storage.

So if I have a 5 gallon paint strainer bag, inside a roughly 5 gallon boiler pot with holes, and have a wort thickness of 2 qts/lb, it doesn't seem like it should be that tight.

Or am I missing something? (Entirely possible).

Here people are saying that they get 69% efficiency using the method I'll be using. Plugging that in, I think I'll bump up my MO 1.5lbs to 10 lbs, but I should still have a decent amount of space.

I honestly have no idea what your efficiency will be, I was just trying to point out several factors that are not working in your favor to get a "normal" efficiency. With that being said, I wasn't trying to discourage you from trying to do this all grain, just point out things to take into account so you have a successful venture.

1 bag may be enough, but having a second on hand won't hurt.

The guy you quoted at getting 69% was mashing at 2.9 qts per pound and was able to keep his mash temperature pretty constant. More water = more room for sugars. It might not be the ideal ratio for a normal mash but in the case of a no sparge mash, it probably helps with the efficiency. He doesn't say how long he mashed, but a longer mash would probably help with conversion in such a loose wort. He also didn't have to top up with as much 1.00 gravity water as you will have to, unless you can fit in enough water to mash at 3qts per lb.

Jamesnw,

The best way to increase your efficiency and increase your chances of success IMO would be to mash in your kettle as you suggest w/ about 60% of the total water required. When that is done mashing remove the bag and transfer the first runnings to another container/bucket whatever. Now conduct another sparge w/ your grain bag w/ the remaining water in the kettle. Combine runnings and boil.

Or go ahead and try a BIAB, I guess I am just a sparger at heart. If you fill that 36 qt kettle and go BIAB, may just work fine?? Probably a good idea to toss in some extra grain.

I'm going to play around, see if I can figure out a way to do a sparge of some kind.
Hmm... SWMBO will be making apple sauce at the same time I'm brewing... so pots may be at a premium... thinking.

I'm also thinking of stuffing a cardboard box with towels, to make a kind of insulated place for the mash. Anyone ever do that?

jamesnw said:

I'm going to play around, see if I can figure out a way to do a sparge of some kind.
Hmm... SWMBO will be making apple sauce at the same time I'm brewing... so pots may be at a premium... thinking.

I'm also thinking of stuffing a cardboard box with towels, to make a kind of insulated place for the mash. Anyone ever do that?

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yes....it works. make sure to pile towels on top, too. and the less headspace in the pot, the better.

Did you go for it saturday?

How did it go?

Well I must say, you were right. I didn't have enough space in my bag for the amount of grains- so I only got 52% efficiency. I made up for that with some DME, came out right. I even sparged once, but not with tons of water.

So I think less grains, bigger bag, better sparging would all up my efficiency considerably.

For the mash, I wrapped my pot in a sleeping bag, and it held the temperature wonderfully for the entire hour. Didn't have to add any heat or hot water.

All in all, low efficiency, and a lot of things I need to work out for next time. But this one will still come out okay.

Was your thermometer calibrated? I checked mine with ice water and It was showing 2C higher than it should have. I got 55% efficiency with a similar method when I mashed for a lighter body (lower mash temps). Pretty good attenuation with such a fermentable wort though.

I had calibrated my thermometer a couple months ago, so it might be out of whack. I will check again - good call.