I am new to wine making and this is my third wine, a Pinot Noir from a kit, but it is way too sweet. I followed the directions given. I unfortunately put in the Kieselsol and Chitosan thinking the wine was ok to finish. When I took the final SG it was 1.104. The starting SG was 1.139. Is there anything I can do to fix it? Also, if I figured the alcohol correctly, it is only 3%. The alcohol started at 18% and ended at 15%, which if I figured it correctly leaves only 3%. Thanks for any help you can give.
Too Sweet Pinot Noir
- Thread starter ciaodebc
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I don't think your readings are correct. That kit should start at about 1.100 and finish at .990 or so. I assume you added water, up to 6 gallons at the beginning? And then it fermented for a week? When you checked the SG when racking the wine the first time at about week 2, what was the SG then?
There isn't any possibly way that wine is at 1.104 now- it shouldn't have even started that high! When you take a sample, I assume you fill a hydrometer test jar, and gently drop the hydrometer in so that it doesn't touch the sides? I'd check another reading right away and let us know what it is!
Thank you for responding. Wish I were wrong. I tested it over and over again before and again today. The readings for SG started at 1.138 and is now 1.104, the Sugar Balling started at 32 and is now 26, and the % Alcohol started at 18% and is now 15%. With this kit you don't add water or sugar, just the included yeast, Bentonite, Metabisulfite, Vit C, Sorbate, Kieselsol, and Chitosan when told to according to the instructions. The kit makes 15 750 ml bottles. I will be happy to send you a sample so you can check the readings for yourself. I also made a Pinot Chardonnay, which readings were good and it tastes okay.
Thanks for responding. Wish I were wrong. The SG was 1.138 when I started and is now 1.104, the % Alcohol started at 18% and is now 15%, and the Sugar/Balling started at 32 and is now 26. With this kit you don't add sugar or water, just the Yeast, Bentonite, Metabisulfite, Vit C, Sorbate, Kieselsol, and Chitosan when told to do so in the instructions. The kit makes 15 750 ml bottles. I tested it over and over before and again today and keep getting the same readings. Maybe there was too much sugar to begin with and the yeast got stuck, even though it obviously worked somewhat. I will be happy to send you a sample so you can test it yourself. I also made Pinot Chardonnay and it tested ok and tastes ok.
Sorry for the double post. Something happened with the first one and I thought it didn't post so I wrote and posted the second one. When I saw there were 2 of the same posts, I tried deleting one, but couldn't figure out how. Sorry again.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
You did not say that you actually tasted it ... did it actually taste too sweet and with no alcohol bite??
IF it did ... and you are in fact reading the hydrometer properly ... then the concentrate they sent needed to be cut with water ... whether faulty directions or whatever.
The pinot was likely intended to be 10 to 12% ... not 18%.... there is no way that the concentrate was meant to be used undiluted and as high as it appears on your readings.
So ... if it is just a matter of diluting it with water down to where it should be ... and if you already added all the yeast you have on hand ... and did NOT yet add the packet with the metabisulfite and especially not the *sorbate* (!!) ... your best bet without going out and picking up more yeast will be to add water approx 25% by volume ... so if you have two gallons of wine/concentrate in your bucket currently you’d add ½ gallon of water etc ... which should take your final abv back down to about 10% or so when fermented to dry.
Then with the water added, stir or shake the hell out of it to get some oxygen back in and hopefully get the yeast unstuck. As you’ve removed the yeast from suspension with the chitosan/kieselsol you should continue to shake it or stir it every couple hours for a minute until it starts back up. Hopefully if it starts back up it will remain active for long enough before falling out of suspension to get further along in the fermentation.
If it just won’t re-start ... and you have NOT added the sorbate at any time ... then you may need to let it settle for a couple days - rack the wine back off the yeast sediment (with a siphon) get more yeast and try fermenting it anew with fresh yeast.
IF you did add the sorbate ... it is probably not recoverable.
But if the manufacturers directions were faulty (re-read them very carefully) or the product for that matter was faulty, they very well may be willing to send you a new kit.
IF it did ... and you are in fact reading the hydrometer properly ... then the concentrate they sent needed to be cut with water ... whether faulty directions or whatever.
The pinot was likely intended to be 10 to 12% ... not 18%.... there is no way that the concentrate was meant to be used undiluted and as high as it appears on your readings.
So ... if it is just a matter of diluting it with water down to where it should be ... and if you already added all the yeast you have on hand ... and did NOT yet add the packet with the metabisulfite and especially not the *sorbate* (!!) ... your best bet without going out and picking up more yeast will be to add water approx 25% by volume ... so if you have two gallons of wine/concentrate in your bucket currently you’d add ½ gallon of water etc ... which should take your final abv back down to about 10% or so when fermented to dry.
Then with the water added, stir or shake the hell out of it to get some oxygen back in and hopefully get the yeast unstuck. As you’ve removed the yeast from suspension with the chitosan/kieselsol you should continue to shake it or stir it every couple hours for a minute until it starts back up. Hopefully if it starts back up it will remain active for long enough before falling out of suspension to get further along in the fermentation.
If it just won’t re-start ... and you have NOT added the sorbate at any time ... then you may need to let it settle for a couple days - rack the wine back off the yeast sediment (with a siphon) get more yeast and try fermenting it anew with fresh yeast.
IF you did add the sorbate ... it is probably not recoverable.
But if the manufacturers directions were faulty (re-read them very carefully) or the product for that matter was faulty, they very well may be willing to send you a new kit.
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
What brand kit? Sounds lika a port or ice wine kit.
Thanks for replying. All the ingredients have been added, including the sorbate. The instructions say in large letters: DO NOT ADD WATER. The brand is a DIAMANTI Dessert Wine and the grape is a late harvest Pinot Noir. The wine tastes sweet and thick with very little alcohol bite. I think the Sugar/Balling number of 26 is high for a finished product. What do you think? From the posts, it sounds like there is not too much I can do. I have been trying to call the company and left a message. I have yet to hear back from them. If anyone else has any suggestions, I would like to hear from you. Thanks.
roadymi
Well-Known Member
At this point you don't have much to lose. I would make a huge starter with 1118 and pitch it. I have read that the most likely way to overcome the preservatives is to bombard them with huge numbers of yeast. Kinda like starting Skeeter Pee on an established yeast cake.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
A customer reviewing that Diamanti wine kit at amazon says ...
“... step one says in one space to add quality water....but it says "DO NOT ADD ANY WATER" elsewhere.”
That customer further states ...
“I had a lot of struggles with poorly written instructions, and could find no supplements on the product's website. There are contradictions the whole way through...”
(the review at amazon is ... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RYY2N8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 )
I suspect that water was supposed to be added, BUT ... If ... if ... IF in fact it was actually meant to be that high an ABV% (18% - highly unlikely) ... then it is possible that due either to extra acid additions (looking at the ingredient list printed at amazon), or due to possibly getting bad yeast OR yeast and pitch rates not appropriate to that high of a sugar content (an osmotic thing) ... that your fermentation stalled.
The remedy would have been to treat the stall ... something that you would have to have known how to do.
A kit meant to go to 18% would likely have staggered sugar additions and nutrient feeding as well.
In any regard ... as I said before, the problem is that there are sorbates in the must now.
From a post a while back about attempting to ferment sorbated wine ...
“Potassium Sorbate is not very practical to remove ... although it possibly can be done ... ugly ... impractical ... but possible.
Jack Keller notes a method of potassium sorbate removal that involves making a very strong starter of *bread* yeast and adding that to your must ... then, after it’s fermented out it will have consumed the pot sorbate ... rack and re-add a yeast starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use.
Those who have tried it used a starter and then added a teaspoon or two of bakers yeast for three additions, each 8 hours apart to the must to get the removal process started.”
Note that if you tried this you would want to first let your wine settle and rack the liquid off of the sediment (into a new bucket) in an attempt to get rid of the fining agents (chitosan) from your wine must so that they don’t interfere with the yeast you’d be adding.
If you go though all this trouble, when it comes time to “rack and re-add a yeast starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use” ... you should, as mentioned by roadymi, go with EC-1118 yeast ... a powerful, high-speed yeast.
Obviously all of this requires some know-how about making a starter, racking using a racking-cane and tubing etc.
The other options are ... other than to dump it down the drain ... would be to put it in a jug and put in the fridge to let it clear and settle, then rack it into a clean jug and save it for either mixing with booze into drinks (a hell of an expensive mixer) ... or, possibly blending it into another high-alcohol wine that is fermenting and is using either EC-1118 or K1-V1116 as yeast, about 3/4 of the way through fermentation - basically you would be stabilizing or backsweetening that wine by doing this - and this might make the combined wine taste a bit more like grape juice than straight, fermented wine ... BUT that route might, *might* actually allow further fermentation of your current batch too. You'd need to optimize conditions for fermentation as well - pH, temp etc. Complicated stuff and a bit of a risk. Probably not worth it as a new winemaker.
Either way, as the wine kit wasn't cheap - I’d seriously yowl like a choir of scalded cats to the manufacturer or whomever you purchased it from and demand they send you a new wine kit (“if they want to keep your business” etc )
“... step one says in one space to add quality water....but it says "DO NOT ADD ANY WATER" elsewhere.”
That customer further states ...
“I had a lot of struggles with poorly written instructions, and could find no supplements on the product's website. There are contradictions the whole way through...”
(the review at amazon is ... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RYY2N8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 )
I suspect that water was supposed to be added, BUT ... If ... if ... IF in fact it was actually meant to be that high an ABV% (18% - highly unlikely) ... then it is possible that due either to extra acid additions (looking at the ingredient list printed at amazon), or due to possibly getting bad yeast OR yeast and pitch rates not appropriate to that high of a sugar content (an osmotic thing) ... that your fermentation stalled.
The remedy would have been to treat the stall ... something that you would have to have known how to do.
A kit meant to go to 18% would likely have staggered sugar additions and nutrient feeding as well.
In any regard ... as I said before, the problem is that there are sorbates in the must now.
From a post a while back about attempting to ferment sorbated wine ...
“Potassium Sorbate is not very practical to remove ... although it possibly can be done ... ugly ... impractical ... but possible.
Jack Keller notes a method of potassium sorbate removal that involves making a very strong starter of *bread* yeast and adding that to your must ... then, after it’s fermented out it will have consumed the pot sorbate ... rack and re-add a yeast starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use.
Those who have tried it used a starter and then added a teaspoon or two of bakers yeast for three additions, each 8 hours apart to the must to get the removal process started.”
Note that if you tried this you would want to first let your wine settle and rack the liquid off of the sediment (into a new bucket) in an attempt to get rid of the fining agents (chitosan) from your wine must so that they don’t interfere with the yeast you’d be adding.
If you go though all this trouble, when it comes time to “rack and re-add a yeast starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use” ... you should, as mentioned by roadymi, go with EC-1118 yeast ... a powerful, high-speed yeast.
Obviously all of this requires some know-how about making a starter, racking using a racking-cane and tubing etc.
The other options are ... other than to dump it down the drain ... would be to put it in a jug and put in the fridge to let it clear and settle, then rack it into a clean jug and save it for either mixing with booze into drinks (a hell of an expensive mixer) ... or, possibly blending it into another high-alcohol wine that is fermenting and is using either EC-1118 or K1-V1116 as yeast, about 3/4 of the way through fermentation - basically you would be stabilizing or backsweetening that wine by doing this - and this might make the combined wine taste a bit more like grape juice than straight, fermented wine ... BUT that route might, *might* actually allow further fermentation of your current batch too. You'd need to optimize conditions for fermentation as well - pH, temp etc. Complicated stuff and a bit of a risk. Probably not worth it as a new winemaker.
Either way, as the wine kit wasn't cheap - I’d seriously yowl like a choir of scalded cats to the manufacturer or whomever you purchased it from and demand they send you a new wine kit (“if they want to keep your business” etc )
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Sigh...
It's a dessert wine. It very likely was supposed to attenuate more, but I guarantee you that it wasn't supposed to ferment to anywhere near its 18% potential. And the 18% potential certainly DOES make sense for a late harvest grape dessert wine.
OP: Did you mean to pick a dessert wine, or did you want a pinot noir that fermented dry? They're late harvest grapes so you wouldn't exactly be able to make a perfect dry wine, but you can definitely get closer to that by diluting it with water - I'd think around 33% the volume of the must you currently have, in water (ie if you have 3gal right now, add 1gal water to bring it to 4gal). That could also help restart fermentation.
If it doesn't though, sorbate doesn't do the greatest job of deactivating highly active yeast. So I would buy some wine yeast (a strain suitable for pinot noir, obviously), and make a massive starter, stepped up at least once. Pitch this massive starter at the peak of activity, and it will almost definitely start fermenting the wine. There's a chance it may not be able to attenuate completely, but even if that's the case, it should at least end up a lot more tolerable.
It's a dessert wine. It very likely was supposed to attenuate more, but I guarantee you that it wasn't supposed to ferment to anywhere near its 18% potential. And the 18% potential certainly DOES make sense for a late harvest grape dessert wine.
OP: Did you mean to pick a dessert wine, or did you want a pinot noir that fermented dry? They're late harvest grapes so you wouldn't exactly be able to make a perfect dry wine, but you can definitely get closer to that by diluting it with water - I'd think around 33% the volume of the must you currently have, in water (ie if you have 3gal right now, add 1gal water to bring it to 4gal). That could also help restart fermentation.
If it doesn't though, sorbate doesn't do the greatest job of deactivating highly active yeast. So I would buy some wine yeast (a strain suitable for pinot noir, obviously), and make a massive starter, stepped up at least once. Pitch this massive starter at the peak of activity, and it will almost definitely start fermenting the wine. There's a chance it may not be able to attenuate completely, but even if that's the case, it should at least end up a lot more tolerable.
Thanks for all your suggestions, especially Jacob Marley who went above and beyond and emjay. I will continue to try contacting the company in Canada. What do you think of my making a batch of alcohol intended for hard liquor (water, sugar and yeast) and adding that to the wine? Thanks again to everyone.
ciaodebc said:
It would just make it really watery, and probably harsh. I know it doesn't sound ideal, but I really think my suggestion above is the best route. If you are okay with some sweetness (but hopefully drinkable), you can even try skipping the water addition and just making the big starter.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
Ok, so I guess I’ve got a bit of the writing bug today.
Nope, don’t use the water/sugar/yeast thing.
That is what distillers would call a sugar wash (a type of one anyway). In addition to those three ingredients a sugar wash also requires periodic feedings of nutrients. But as emjay says, it would badly dilute the flavor. Don’t use a sugar wash.
Your best bet if you want to give a real salvage a try would be to establish another grape ferment ... essentially a giant starter, and add it to your failed must.
YES, this is LONG ... but the topic comes up occasionally and maybe it will help others who may be looking for such info.
Others might not go thru all the steps that I outline ... but if I was going through the trouble of trying to rescue an expensive batch I’d sure try to do all I could to insure the best chance of success.
Let me say ... I don't know if it would be better to *include* in the process I outline below, the method Jack Keller notes which uses huge pitches of bread yeast.
I guess the "proof will be in the pudding"
That having been said ... without the bread yeast method for sorbate removal ... this is how I would do it.
~~ Restarting a Sorbated Must Using a Starter ~~
Items needed from the winemakers/brewers supply ...
2 packets Lalvin EC-1118 yeast
Yeast Energizer (not straight DAP)
pH Test tape
Possibly Potassium Bicarbonate if necessary (see below)
64oz Welch's Grape Juice (or similar)
You’ll need to ...
1) do work on the failed batch of must
2) establish a “yeast starter” .
3) then combine them.
First ... set out the Welch's Grape Juice and the bucket of failed must so that they are both at room temperature.
Treating the Failed Batch ...
As I mentioned in my previous post, on the failed batch you need to let it settle so the sediment collects on the bottom and then rack the wine off of the sediment into a new bucket (primary fermenter).
This is at least in part because the fining agents (the chitosan and kieselsol) will act to remove the new yeast you’ll be introducing from suspension in the wine and interfere with fermentation ... particularly as you’ll be agitating the must to oxygenate it for fermentation.
After racking to the new container you need to add water to adjust your SG to one more reasonable ... I would say an opening gravity of not more than 1.090.
As sugar increases in solution there is a point where the stress and mortality of the yeast increases because osmotic pressures de-hydrate the yeast cells.
1.090 is safe.
After adjusting with the water, then you should take a pH reading of the failed must. This requires pH test tape.
This is particularly important if you added any acids that were included in the wine kit such as tartaric acid, or an acid blend etc.
You want it to be at above pH 3.8 for the yeast to be happiest. I would not go lower than pH 3.8 as you don’t want to stall the yeast if any drop in pH occurs as a result of the ferment.
Although I suspect that your failed must has a pH 3.8 or above, if it is below that number you should seriously consider using Potassium Bicarbonate (a chemical from the winemakers store) per its directions to raise the pH.
Finally, add a standard dose of Yeast Energizer to the failed must.
Energizer contains b-complex vitamins and thiamin is particularly important if your failed must had any metabisulfite added to it (sulfites interfere with the availability of the that important yeast nutrient).
Making the Starter ...
Yeast
For your new starter, as was mentioned EC-1118 is a good choice. Personally I’d get two packets of that yeast. One for use in the starter and one to sprinkle on top of the must ... there is going to be high mortality and stress for the yeast because of the sorbate and so I’d go with a higher yeast “pitch rate”.
Juice
For the grape juice, you can either use a grape juice product intended for making wine or actually just use Welch’s grape juice in the 64oz container from the supermarket. This is the one that if you read the ingredient list it says that it contains no preservatives and only has (as I recall) a bit of ascorbic acid added to it. You’ll need just one 64oz container.
Welch’s has a pH of about 3.8 naturally ... although it’s SG is only about 1.066 (8.8% ABV).
Because EC-1118 is a high speed yeast that will rip through the nutrients and use up the natural sugar in the grape juice fairly quickly; you should raise the sugar content of the Welch’s grape juice.
Add 4-1/2 oz of sugar to the 64oz of Welch’s grape juice and stir until dissolved (you’ll probably need a larger container to do this) to bring the SG up to 1.080.
If you have it, you should also add 1/8 teaspoon “Yeast Energizer” to the Welch’s (in any regard, half of a standard dose of energizer).
This “energizer” is one of the two common nutrient chemicals added to wine. The other is straight DAP (diammonium phosphate). Although most yeast energizers contain a small amount of DAP, do not add straight DAP to the starter.
Rehydrate the Yeast
You should first re-hydrate the yeast in water before combining with grape juice. This will retain the maximum number of yeast and in the least damaged state verses just putting the dry yeast directly into the juice.
To rehydrate ... In a small clean glass, add one packet of EC-1118 yeast to two tablespoonfuls of water that is 104* degrees (101* to 104* is ok - but absolutely NO hotter !!). Stir it to break up any clumps and let the yeast sit in the water for 25 minutes.
Assemble the Starter
Make sure that the grape juice and also the rehydrated yeast are at the SAME temperature now ... room temperature is fine at 75* to 80*.
Take a large container ... a gallon jug would work well, and add ½ cup of the Welch's grape juice to it. Now SHAKE the container for 60 seconds. Add the rehydrated yeast and mix it in. Put a piece of cloth over the top so stuff doesn’t fall/fly into the jug and let it sit at room temperature.
Fermentation should start fairly soon.
Two hours later ... shake your container of Welch’s grape juice briefly and add another half cup to the starter jug.
Four hours later ... shake your container of Welch’s and add 1 cup to the starter jug.
Four hours later ... add 1 cup of the Welch’s ALONG WITH ½ cup OF THE FAILED SORBATED MUST to the starter.
Shake the jug of starter briefly.
Four hours later add 1 cup of the Welch’s along with 1 CUP of the FAILED SORBATED MUST to the starter.
(Add to the failed must bucket any Welch’s grape juice that is NOT already in the starter jug)
Four hours later shake the jug of starter for 2 minutes ... vigorously STIR the bucket of failed must for about 3-4 minutes with a large sanitized spoon ...
and now add the whole jug of starter to the bucket of must and stir it in.
Take the other packet of EC-1118 yeast and sprinkle it over the surface of the wine in the bucket.
DO NOT STIR in the dry yeast you’ve sprinkled over the top (!).
Secure a thin cloth over the bucket and leave it in an area where the temperature is (ideally) 80* to 85* degrees (but no hotter).
Go to a church, light a candle and say a prayer to St. Vincent, the patron saint of winemakers. ;-)
Again thanks for the info and help. Jacob thanks for the great detailed info and telling me how to make the starter and how to mix the starter with the must. Now I don't have to rack my brain trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. Its nice to know that there are people who know what to do with wine problems.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
all ...
Please excuse my bumping this very old post.
Having just referred someone to that old post for reference ...
I hesitate to do this but I feel I need to note a correction to that post - as this topic does come up occasionally and I am no longer able to add the correction to the original post (above) as it is so old.
Don't know how I missed it to this point ... anyhow ...
Again ... my apologies.
Regarding the long post above.
Correction: In that post where I talk about making the starter I say to initially put in 1/2 cup of the grape juice (it says: "a gallon jug would work well, and add ½ cup of the Welch's grape juice")... this should read to put in **2-1/2 cups** (two and one half cups).
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