what to do/brew with Gueuze dregs?

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jurgenph

jurgenph

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so, i have two bottles of Timmermans Oude Gueuze that are reported to have both yeast and bacteria in it.

i'd like to put them to good use and brew something with it :)

but i'm not sure how to approach it. looking for some tips, hints, pointers, guidance here. rather than me just pitching the dregs in the primary, and hoping for the best ;)

this will be for a small 1 gallon batch.

i can do both all grain or extract, what would be a simple fail safe recipe for my first attempt at this style?

do i pitch from the bottles? or should i build a starter?

pitch it in primary or secondary?

how long should i let it ferment/work/age/rest in the carboy before bottling? how long let it sit in the bottle before it's drinkable?


cheers!
J.
 
Use a small torch after popping the cap to flame the lip of the bottle for a few seconds. Decant off most of the beer off the dregs. Drink the beer. Add half a bottle of weak starter wort to each of the bottles or 1/4, stir and add both to one of the bottles. Put some sanitized foil over the top, keep it warm and see if it is active. You can do this a couple of times to build up the bugs and then direct pitch into your 1 gallon. Or use something like the Wyeast Lambic blend and dump in the dregs with it to give it some extra character. I've done both and I like the blend method. It takes 1-2 years to get good, round sour beer. Don't rush it.
 
thanks!

porterpounder said:
It takes 1-2 years to get good, round sour beer. Don't rush it.
Click to expand...

how important is a stable temperature over such a long time?

my house temps are all over the place. during winter time it can range from 68F (night) to 72F (day). while summertime usually doesn't see anything below 78F, and occasionally will be up to 82F.

there is no way that i can find a spot where i can keep this stable that long :)


J.
 
jurgenph said:
thanks!



how important is a stable temperature over such a long time?

my house temps are all over the place. during winter time it can range from 68F (night) to 72F (day). while summertime usually doesn't see anything below 78F, and occasionally will be up to 82F.

there is no way that i can find a spot where i can keep this stable that long :)


J.
Click to expand...

You'll definitely want very strict temperature control for the portion of the gravity fermented by Saccharomyces. So, usually at the very least, you'll want to control the temperatures quite steadily for the first 2-4 weeks.

Once the Saccharomyces is done and the bacteria (mainly Lactobacillus and Pediococcus) and Brettanomyces ("wild" yeast) take over, it becomes less important to maintain a steady temperature.

One thing to note is that higher temperatures will speed up the souring process, but will contribute a different character. It's usually said that slow cooler souring makes a more rounder, smoother, and "complex" flavor (I disagree with the "complex" part, but I've heard/read several people say that).

It's also worth noting that a ton of the most respected sour beer producing breweries have zero temperature control in their warehouses. That said, the beer is in huge barrels, where drastic temperature changes won't affect the beer as much because the more liquid you have, the more time it takes for the temperature to change.

It's also worth noting that, while most homebrewers will recommend aging between 60 and 70 degrees, a lot of sour mixes (for example, by White Labs or Wyeast) recommend a temperature that's over 80 degrees.

As an example:
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp655-belgian-sour-mix-1

I also lived in San Jose up until about 1.5 months ago, and the 2016 summer was pretty hot for the South Bay. The hottest my beer got at ambient temperatures was around 79 or 80, even though the inside of the apartment was as hot as 95 some days. Part of that has to do with the fluctuations in the temperature, and it takes time for 5 gallons of liquid to go from, say, 70 degrees to 95 degrees.
 
awesome! i'll be able to control the first 2 to 4 weeks, that won't be a problem.

will the bottles still have saccharomyces in it? or should i pitch some as well?


J.
 
worlddivides said:
You'll definitely want very strict temperature control for the portion of the gravity fermented by Saccharomyces. So, usually at the very least, you'll want to control the temperatures quite steadily for the first 2-4 weeks.

Once the Saccharomyces is done and the bacteria (mainly Lactobacillus and Pediococcus) and Brettanomyces ("wild" yeast) take over, it becomes less important to maintain a steady temperature.

One thing to note is that higher temperatures will speed up the souring process, but will contribute a different character. It's usually said that slow cooler souring makes a more rounder, smoother, and "complex" flavor (I disagree with the "complex" part, but I've heard/read several people say that).

It's also worth noting that a ton of the most respected sour beer producing breweries have zero temperature control in their warehouses. That said, the beer is in huge barrels, where drastic temperature changes won't affect the beer as much because the more liquid you have, the more time it takes for the temperature to change.

It's also worth noting that, while most homebrewers will recommend aging between 60 and 70 degrees, a lot of sour mixes (for example, by White Labs or Wyeast) recommend a temperature that's over 80 degrees.

As an example:
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp655-belgian-sour-mix-1

I also lived in San Jose up until about 1.5 months ago, and the 2016 summer was pretty hot for the South Bay. The hottest my beer got at ambient temperatures was around 79 or 80, even though the inside of the apartment was as hot as 95 some days. Part of that has to do with the fluctuations in the temperature, and it takes time for 5 gallons of liquid to go from, say, 70 degrees to 95 degrees.
Click to expand...


Excellent write up. It is worth noting that while plenty of breweries do not have climate control in their barrel warehouses, traditional lambic brewers are gifted with mild year-round conditions due to the temperate climate and cellar conditions in Lembeek, BE. Which is to say, much more forgiving to microflora than the yearly temperature swings in New England or Southern California. :)
 
jurgenph said:
awesome! i'll be able to control the first 2 to 4 weeks, that won't be a problem.

will the bottles still have saccharomyces in it? or should i pitch some as well?


J.
Click to expand...

Lactic Acid Bacteria (aka LAB) are very hardy and, if the beer isn't pasteurized, they can survive for years and years. Saccharomyces (i.e. "brewer's yeast" or "baker's yeast" depending on the context) is not nearly as viable. Even if some had survived, there is no way that it would be capable to ferment 5 gallons or so of wort, even by trying to build a starter (which would probably result in way more bacteria than yeast in the end).

Gueuze is usually a mixture of 1 year old, 2 year old, and 3 year old lambics. There is definitely no viable Saccharomyces in the 2 year old and 3 year old lambics, and there is probably not many and possibly even zero viable Saccharomyces in the 1 year old lambic. I don't say "yeast," because there usually is viable Brettanomyces.

But, even if there were, you'd still want to pitch some fresh yeast. What you use is up to you. You don't have to use Belgian yeast if you don't want to. In my most recent sour, I used Californian yeast, and in the one before that, I used English yeast. In both cases, Belgian yeast did eventually get into them (since I added mixes that contained Belgian yeast), but that was after primary fermentation had ended anyway.
 
Personally I'd just brew up a 70 Pils 30 wheat base mashed like 160 at about 5ibu, pitch a Saison yeast then as fermentation slows toss in the dregs. You can leave it in that fermenter as the Brett will clean up autolysis or rack after a few weeks.

I usually make 1 gallon mixed cultures to use as a pitch to inoculate a full 5 gallon batch. I wouldn't think about bottling until at least 6 months to a year, so given the timeline for just 1 gallon seems a waste. Make sure you keep tabs on your airlock to make sure it doesn't run dry and avoid taking samples as that introduces oxygen which is your enemy.
 

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