Organic chemistry for brewing?

Is anyone else taking organic chemistry on coursera? There are several home brewers and wine makers taking it to aid in their understanding of brewing and I was wundering if anyone else signed up. FYI coursera.org is a new online free college course site.

Although brewing involves inorganic and organic chemistry, it seems we mostly focus on the inorganic component. It would be interesting to delve into the organic side to see if there are other things to ponder. The Analytical Chemistry course might be more applicable.

I took O-Chem a few years back. While it is useful and interesting I don't think it's required to brew excellent beer even on the commercial scale. I'm sure if you want to be on the forefront of hop utilization and isomerization it's required. Both Inorganic and Organic would give you an excellent base to go into yeast biology, nearly every enzyme is based on an inorganic compound with a metal center allowing the yeasts to catalyze organic compounds.
I agree with mabrungard, Analytical Chemistry would be more applicable to brewing in it's broad scope. Since mash pH and metal solubility play quite a role in taste/texture perceptions in beer.

You can view the UC Davis Brewing Course prerequisites for a good idea of what they look for in a brewer(O-Chem's in there).

Fortunately the emphasis on brewing is on Biochemistry which, I am happy to say, does not require much knowledge of organic chemistry. I was set right on this by a biochemist who said 'Go ahead and give it a shot - you'll find you really don't need that much organic." And he was right. I can jump into the middle of a biochem text and understand what they are talking about. I cannot do that with an organic chemistry text without lots more difficulty.

Needless to say, the better you understand organic the better you will understand biochem and organic is a good thing to know for its own sake but if the shortest path to good beer is sought I'd go straight to the biochem. One of the major reasons for that is that every biochem text has a big section on the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation which is key to the understanding of water chemistry as well as many aspects of biochemistry. You will find it dealt with more directly in biochem (and p-chem) books than in organic texts (to the best of my knowledge - I don't have familiarity with many organic chem texts).

Speaking of p-chem: that's what I would say I spend most of my time on. pH, its measurement, the properties of solutions, the extent of reactions, buffering... Those are the things that really seem to concern brewers most.

As for analytical - that kind of falls into place on its own. If you were to start using some of the ASBC's MOAs (Methods of Analysis) I think it would be pretty clear as to why they have you do what they have you do. This assumes you have some knowledge of statistics and the scientific method in hand at this point. Based on that perhaps we should ask 'What's your technical background?'

Thanks, great insight. I did see the UCD pre reqs and assumed it would be beneficial. I do architectural preservation and material conservation so it is interesting. Since its free I figure why not.

I might be wrong, but fermentation is completely o-chem is it not? it would seem anything to do with yeast would be to some extent.

Techbrewie: It depends how in-depth you look at fermentation. The gross process of Along with the resultant fusel oils yes. But as you get into the exact reaction and role of zymase and other enzymes you run into inorganic chemistry. Some yeasts utilize a B-12 dependent enzyme, B-12 has cobalt at the center(p470 Img 13). Many other enzymes and vitamins have metal centers. So it all depends on how close you want to look at the fermentation. Then there are all the processes in the yeasts like reproduction and respiration that almost certainly rely on inorganic molecules to transport energy/RNA/DNA around.
Many of the reactions also only occur under certain conditions which is where Physical chemistry comes in.

The chemistries overlap a lot. Ultimately it is the laws of physics (quantum physics) that determine what happens in any chemical reaction but the guys that study this stuff have organized it into multiple specializations. As I said in an earlier post what happens in a yeast cell in mostly the domain of the biochemist. In fermentation you start with the Embden-Meyerhoff-Parnass pathway in which maltose is split into two glucose molecules, those are phosphorylated....until pyruvate is produced which is decarboxylated (that's where the CO2 comes from) to acetaldehyde which is reduced to ethanol (those last three steps are not part of EMP). Each step is catalyzed by an enzyme and what makes the enzymes do their jobs and how they regulate the process is a large part of the biochemists concern.

The reduction of acetaldehyde to ethanol

CH3CHO + NADH + H+ <---> CH3CH2OH + NAD+

for example, is clearly an organic reaction but the fact that it is part of a complex chain (it requires the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase to catalyze it and NAD+ is needed for an earlier step where it is consumed producing NADH and protons so there is a loop) are the things that concern biochemists more than the shapes of the molecular orbitals that hold ethanol in its particular shape and how it would react with sulfuric acid (forms ethyl ether) which would be more the concern of the organic chemist. But obviously the biochemist needs to know that this is a redox reaction and that pH will control whether it goes to left or right. I'd suggest going to the library and pulling an organic chemistry text off the shelf along with a biochemistry text and paging through them to get a feel for the difference.

I know I asked the right question in the best place. As far as this subject goes I'm a newbie. I brew like I cook, off the hip and see how it turn s out. this is the reason for research. I remember a thread about welding and I found that hbt and brewers are universalists. We do it all. Thank y'all for the education, I am looking at these recommendations. Brew well my friends.

I've started the class as well! Have you kept up for the 3rd week?

I figured bio-chem would be a better start, but I wasn't expecting to hear inorganic would be possibly more important - glad I know that now. It was also suggested to me by a friend who has a deep academic background in chem that chemical engineering may be a great place to focus.

I figured, since the Organic Chem is available for free, and none of those other courses are, why not! Just getting the brain back into the chemistry world in any way is sure to help is what I presume. I too was looking for local community college courses, but scheduling is impossible, and other universities charge far too much.

Brewers:
While we're on the subject, especially those of you who understand chem equilibria, any idea what would happen if CO2 were removed, to whatever extent, from the ferm'n, by, say, sparging, slight vacuum, other. Seems that since CO2 is a product, its removal might hasten the rate of ferm'n, nicht var?

I've taken Organic I, II, Organic lab, Polymer Chemistry, P-Chem, Analytical Chem, Qualitative Analysis, Chemical & Material Balances, two Thermo classes, Environmental Modeling, Unit Operations and Processes in Env. Engineering among others, and I can safely say, none of those have helped me brew better beer.

Maybe I take for granted understanding the fundamentals of water chemistry and fermentation, but honestly, brewing beer is how you get better at brewing beer. If you want to read up on the science of brewing, look up scholarly articles on brewing. They're really out there believe it or not, and a whole lot more related to what we're interested in rather than being able to interpret a P-V phase diagram or the kinetics of the elimination rxn of 1,2-dibromo-1,2-diphenylethane and the resultant conformation.

@ Jonpecan:
If you're end goal is to work in a high volume brewery Chem-E classes might be beneficial. IMO, There is a large overlap between chemical engineering and bio/chemistry courses but the engineering is geared towards large plant-scale and optimizing reactions only possible due to the economies of scale. They won't hurt your brewing efforts but they might not get you to your destination in the most direct manner. It really all depends on your goals as a brewer. See if you can find a Chem-E that works in brewing and pick their brain for a bit. Heck e-mail a few head brewers at your favorite micro/macro breweries and get their opinions.

@ Alcophile:
On the face of it, following Le Chatlier's principle removing products drives the reaction to the right is true. Fermentation isn't just a chemical reaction though. Sure biology boils down to a long string of reactions but CO[sub]2[/sub] is a gas but at fermentation temps you've only got a couple parts per thousand actually dissolved in the liquid. Unless your airlock is clogged the chamber's approximately at atmospheric pressure. The bigger factors are going to be yeast metabolism, temperature, and nutrient availability. Also remember that they are living in their own excrement which strains them. The alcohol content has a greater impact than CO[sub]2[/sub].
In short: Sparging with N2 or pulling a slight vacuum will likely have little/no noticeable effect.

@leithoa: Le Chatelier's only applies in equilibria, so in the case of enzymatic decarboxylation it doesn't get into it, as the reaction is non-reversible under standard (and non-extreme) conditions. Rate kinetics for this reaction are likely to be single order, or pseudo single order, dependent on substrate concentrations, with a secondary effect of whole-system health (yeast cell) being the other contributing factor.

Whilst the transit of co2 from yeast cells is (as far as I can ascertain) through passive diffusion, accelerating this process by decreasing the concentration gradient outside the cell wouldn't affect fermentation, as its conc isn't rate limiting.

Also, I have an MSc in Organic chem and am a professional Analytical chemist, and aside from a greater focus on precision and record keeping, I don't think it helps me make better beer. The ability to quickly parse the literature, and perhaps a slightly more refined BS filter are beneficial, but I don't intend to go pro anytime soon. Maybe if I wanted to run somebody's brewery lab it'd help, but I think a well-trained critical palate and consistent practices and procedures are more advantageous skills to develop.

I was kind of getting at Le Chatlier not applying to yeast/biologic actions hence the

Fermentation isn't just a chemical reaction though

Click to expand...

. I just figured that was how the original question came up.

Thanks for all of the great insight. I suppose I can stick it out for the adventure of learning nonetheless. The subject matter is far more intriguing than i ever expected. I never imagined that we know so much about things like electron orbital shapes : something so essential to the underlying science, but something this liberal artist never heard of. My profession is as a lawyer, so I'm enjoying using my smarts in a such a different context. That being said, my brain hurts too, and the course is rapidly failing to adequately explain too many concepts at once.