First Decoction Mash Questions

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barhoc11

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I have decided to make a Double Decoction Dunkel Lager and after researching the process I still have questions. If anyone can please review my approach below and give me some help, I would appreciate it. My main concern is getting the correct amount of sugars out of the mash so that I can get to my correct OG.

Step 1: Dough In to hit protein rest @126 F for 35 minutes

Step 2: Decoct 1/3 of mash and heat it up to 147F for 20 minutes, then boil for 10 -15 minutes

Step 3: Add Decoction #1 to mash tun to get temperature up to 147 F (how long does this need to stay at 147 F ??)

Step 4: Decoct a few quarts of the mash and heat up to 156 F for 20 minutes, then boil for 10 -15 minutes

Step 5: Add Decoction #2 to mash tun to get temperature up to 156 F (how long does this need to stay at 156 F ??)

Step 6: Vorleuf and begin first runnings

Step 7: Sparge with water to get to 168 F for 15 - 20 minutes

Step 8: Take final runnings and boil wort like normal

Thanks in advance for the help, this is something I have always wanted to do but I need some approval from someone who has done this before for some reassurance.
 
For Steps 3 & 5, I would mash at 30 minutes each. This was similar to what I did to brew my Oktoberfest back in May except that I did the Kaiser's enhanced double decoction. If your mash tun is not direct fired, make sure your decoction volumes are correct to hit the right temps. Also, be sure to account for evaporation in the decoction volumes so you pull more mash than what you will add back in (the mistake I made).

As with any mash, make sure your grain crush is good and you stir a lot to ensure good extraction.
 
Thanks for the response, just curious about steps 3 and 5.... are these steps in place of the normal mash I would do for 60 - 90 minutes during a normal batch sparge?

Just to clarify, you are saying to get my decoctions up to 147 and then 155 and hold for around 30 minutes and this will get me the sugar extraction I need?
 
I don't have my notes in front of me, but I agree that with terrapinj that a 35 minute protein rest seems long (unless you are using wheat, rye, etc.).

Steps 3 and 5 are indeed the essential replacement to your normal mash at ~151. Best way to determine that you've fully converted all of your starch is to do the iodine test. Sparging and lautering can also affect your overall efficiency, but if you've converted all your starch, that's what you're going to get.
 
i'd be wary of a 35min protein rest - may cause detrimental effects resting that long with today's malts

have you read up on Kaiser's decoction wiki?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

i've done the hochkurz double decoction twice and skipped the protein rest completely

So you have done the Hochkurz double decoction and went right to the maltose rest at 140 - 146 *F ?

Would I just need to make sure I hit that temp (140 - 146 *F) when I doughed in then take a decoction and get that up to the 158 - 162 *F range for 30 minutes before boiling?

Once I have boiled my first decoction, I would add that back to the mash to get it up to the 158 - 162 *F range for 30 minutes before boiling.

Another question.... If my recipe says to mash at 155* F, would this matter if I used a decoction mash?

One more question... How do you normally sparge the grain in a decoction mash? Should I have enough sparge water to get me to 168* F ready after the second decoction and my first running, just like when batch sparging?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I do this right.
 
correct

I dough in to settle around 144° - the longer you hold this rest the more fermentable the wort will be, i target about 45-60min - if you want less fermentable to match a 155° then maybe rest for 30min or so but it may be tough to get it done this quickly

the 1st decoction will bring you from maltose rest (140-146) to the dextrination rest (158 - 162) the next decoction will be used to bring you to mash out temps (168ish) then drain and sparge as you normally would

if you have a chance, watch his 3 part youtube videos as well, it goes through the whole process, much easier to watch what is being done then try to visualize from reading only
 
correct

I dough in to settle around 144° - the longer you hold this rest the more fermentable the wort will be, i target about 45-60min - if you want less fermentable to match a 155° then maybe rest for 30min or so but it may be tough to get it done this quickly

the 1st decoction will bring you from maltose rest (140-146) to the dextrination rest (158 - 162) the next decoction will be used to bring you to mash out temps (168ish) then drain and sparge as you normally would

if you have a chance, watch his 3 part youtube videos as well, it goes through the whole process, much easier to watch what is being done then try to visualize from reading only

I tried watching his video's before but they were kind of hard to follow not knowing what I do now. I am going to give them another try and that should help.

Thanks for all the help with this, I can't wait to try it out.
 
give yourself plenty of time, it's a long process but I enjoy it and Love the smell of the boiling mash

i'd either draw more of a decoction than what is calculated or have some boiling water on hand to help you hit your temps when you add the decoction back just in case

mash thin ~2qt/lb and make sure your pH is inline with the proper range
 
I've watched the videos about 3 or four times. He does a great job explaining the process and gives you some calculations. The third time I watched, I kept a pen and paper handy to define my process and what calcs I needed when.
 
I've watched the videos about 3 or four times. He does a great job explaining the process and gives you some calculations. The third time I watched, I kept a pen and paper handy to define my process and what calcs I needed when.

same here

i typed up my own list of steps to make it easy to go down the checklist during brewday
 
Boil nothing unless your pH is good. Here's what's going to happen: Since you may not know where your water chemistry is and attention to pH is not considered. Along with an over extended protein rest. You will brew an incipid, tannic beer.

Step 1: Get the mash pH right. Use sauer malz and rest at 100 F until the mash gets close to 5.2 pH. You can use lactic. Stay away from it until you get more experienced.

Step 2: Once mash pH is good, pull the 1st decoction.

Step 3: When the 1st decoction begins to boil. Fire the mash tun and begin raising the mash from 100 F to 130 F. Doing this will take the mash through all the lower temp regions needed for other things to occur during sac rests. Dump in the decoction after boiling. If you don't hit 147 F, fire tun to hit the 1st sac, or cool with water if you go too far.

Step 4: Pull the 2nd decoction and do your thing with the temps and boil. Now here's the thing. The mash in the tun will have probably converted by the time you dump in the 2nd decoction. That's OK. Dump in the 2nd decoction.

Step 5: Once the mash has converted. Pull the 3rd decoction of mainly liquid and bring to a boil. Dump it in the tun to hit mash out 168 F. Fire tun if needed.

Step 6: After mash out, transfer mash to the lautertun and rest for a few minutes. Preferably, long enough until the liquid above the mash is clear and the mud has settled on top of the mash.

Step 7: Do the vorlauf thing. Then, begin the fly sparge. Run off using 170 F water. Stop sparging before the wort pH goes haywire. If the mash in the lautertun drops below 168 F, no big deal.

Step 8: Boil wort passed the hot break and dump in the hops. Boil for another hour or two. Run wort through a hopback and cool ASAP to pitching temp and pour in a few liters of starter. The hopback will filter out goop. Before dumping in the yeast, take a wort sample and cool it, do the OG thing. If the wort is clear, very good. If not the beer will be cloudy.

A couple of things to be concerned about: Mash pH and becareful not to scorch the mash when boiling. If you scorch the mash. Start over. The beer will be ruined. Be more concerned with the process, than how much alcohol or efficiency you want. Stay at it and once you get consistent, you'll find that decoction is fun and makes a finer product. You'll make some mistakes. It's a learning curve. You'll do fine. You'll need to age out your beer for a few months. So, brew something different if you don't want to wait.
 
Thanks for the tips, I am going to use water salts as the EZ Water Calculator specifies... I would imagine that would get me the correct pH, correct? I ask because I do not have pH testing available for me to use during the mash, I rely on the calculations in the EZ Water Calculator.
 
Thanks for the tips, I am going to use water salts as the EZ Water Calculator specifies... I would imagine that would get me the correct pH, correct? I ask because I do not have pH testing available for me to use during the mash, I rely on the calculations in the EZ Water Calculator.

Honestly, if you don't have proper way of testing and correcting your mash pH, then don't worry about it. If you haven't had issues in the past with tannin extraction with a normal mash then I wouldn't worry about it, especially with your first decoction. Your going to have issues hitting numbers and getting your process down right so, don't go for perfection. If when the beer is complete and you have "tannin off flavors" then you'll know most likely you have pH issues.

Enjoy the process and brewing experience, leave the in-depth details for your next round.
 
Maxkling said:
Honestly, if you don't have proper way of testing and correcting your mash pH, then don't worry about it. If you haven't had issues in the past with tannin extraction with a normal mash then I wouldn't worry about it, especially with your first decoction. Your going to have issues hitting numbers and getting your process down right so, don't go for perfection. If when the beer is complete and you have "tannin off flavors" then you'll know most likely you have pH issues.

Enjoy the process and brewing experience, leave the in-depth details for your next round.

I hope this isn't too off topic, but can anyone describe tannin off flavors? Just curious.
 
I hope this isn't too off topic, but can anyone describe tannin off flavors? Just curious.

A burnt bitter flavor that overpowers everything, not a firm malty flavor. Almost like unsweetened tea in a concentrated amount.
 
Maxkling said:
A burnt bitter flavor that overpowers everything, not a firm malty flavor. Almost like unsweetened tea in a concentrated amount.

Glad that I have never tasted that before. Thanks for the info.
 
Just watched all of the videos from BrauKaiser and it helped a lot to see everything done visually. The only question I have is, during the last decoction that is used to get the MLT up to ~168, why is there no 'first runnings' like in a single infusion? It seems like using decoction method, there is no use for 'first runnings' and then sparging if you can fit the total volume in your MLT?

I am just not getting the final sparge process because he says he heats up his sparge water but then I do not see anything after that. I know he couldn't have fit all that water into that 5gal cooler so is the process to get everything up to 168 after the final decoction, mash out, and then add more sparge water in to get to final volume?

Thanks again, I feel like I am getting close using the Enhanced Double Decoction Method.
 
"Honestly, if you don't have proper way of testing and correcting your mash pH, then don't worry about it. If you haven't had issues in the past with tannin extraction with a normal mash then I wouldn't worry about it, especially with your first decoction." "If when the beer is complete and you have "tannin off flavors" then you'll know most likely you have pH issues."


Honestly, the above statements aren't necessarily true. What is a "normal mash?" If you're referring to an infusion or step mash. They're not boiled. Is a decoction an abnormal mash?.... Here's the deal. Once, mash is boiled in a high pH zone, tannins will be stripped from the husk. The longer the boil, the worse it gets. Not only that. Lager yeast works best in a lower pH band. That's another reason it's important that the pH of the run off should be watched. There are other things that occur when the mash pH is correct. When you start boiling the mash in the proper pH zone and TDS aren't sky high. The water in the boiled mash becomes "wetter". It's a chemical thing. This allows the water to get at the enzymes to get at the starch easier. The water feels slippery, surface tension is reduced. This helps to rinse out the sugars from the mash better, at beginning of the sparge. That's why if say a 1050 brew is desired, the first gallon or so of run off should be twice the gravity expected. If it isn't, you'll need to reheat and recirculate, or you'll need to run off too much wort and then boil it down to get the gravity wanted. Now, since most new brewers go from boiler to bottle to belly in a couple of weeks and don't know the sense that tannin gives in the mouth. They usually think it's hop bitterness. Tannin becomes more pronounced when the lager is aged out properly, as other flavors mello. Regarding the process. I wouldn't go to a doctor who didn't learn the process of setting bones or working on the brain pan. So, why brew a beer, just to see if it becomes tannic? Why not try to do it right the first time?...I watched part of the vid someone posted. I was embarrassed for the brewer. He had no idea of how much mash to pull for the decoctions. Much less being concerned with other things. Also, he put a "twist" on a beer that is brewed in a much finer way. He was wanting a beer with a warm earthy scent of fresh plowed dirt, mammalian, with the smell of cows. I lived in the country and the smell of a fresh plowed field was one thing. The stench from a herd of cattle wafting through the air was another. The guy mentioned Vikings boiling up grain. Vikings didn't know about hops. The alkaline water and tannic harshness went well. Balancing the magic shrooms, Belladonna, wormwood and Amanita Muscaria they tossed in. The guy missed his calling as a Shakespeare or Thos Hardy. A lager like a cask conditioned ale? If he wanted ale, brew an ale, it's easier and takes less time. Why would he be concerned about water chemistry, pH or dog hair? The off flavors created will add Zen and character to the swill, to go along with the cows and dirt. At least he gave a poor example of the decoction process to learn from. I started tri-decoction mashing pilsner and lager 30 years ago. I'm kind of glad, in away, that the Fred Flintstones of brewing weren't around yet making vids like that one. I learned from reading books from Siebel, Noonan and Fix and from dumping out hundreds of gallons of well aged swill, before reading those books. The guys making the vid were brewing up a load of fresh poo in their diapers when I started decoction brewing. The dogs in the vid were cool.
 
All of what was said.

Everyone has their opinions. I brew because I enjoy it, no matter how the beer comes out. If it comes out crappy I learn and change it, there is NO WAY you can ever brew correctly the first time. For one, there is no correct way to brew, there are 1000's of techiques people use and get different outcomes. Two, you always learn as you brew, you can read a book / random post all day long and end up worse than you would have given it an old shot in the dark.



EDIT:: Ill be nice.

Back to the original questions, I gave my input, none of my decoctions have turned out crappy.
 
I appreciate the banter and plan to go ahead with making this decoction mash soon but can someone please help me out with my last question regarding sparging? I think this is the last link to get me started on this, I will also try to pick up some pH strips to test things as I go.

Thanks!
 
If I'm understanding your question correctly, I think your assumption with the way he sparged is right on. Bring mash to 168 with final decoction, drain the tun, add more sparge water (at 168), then drain what you need.

BTW - my oktoberfest came out great with this process (except I fly sparge). Just tapped the keg yesterday and I was 4 or 5 in before I knew it!
 
I just batch sparge as normal.

If you go the ph strip route, get good ones, not cheap ones.
 
So how did your brew turn out? I got a Maibock that's getting kegged tonight after 3 weeks at 50F and 4 days of D-Rest, going to taste it tonight when I keg it and get it ready for the lagering process.
 
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