Temperature Controlled Burners, Brutus, Banjo BG14, Piloted Honeywell Valve Questions

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jlandin

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Location
Mel Bch, FL-US
I'm building a Brutus 10 style single tier stand with an automated HLT and direct fired MT setup. I have some questions about the gas lines. First off, I'm using BG-14 LP Banjo burners converted to low pressure. I'd like to have valve-integrated standing pilots with safety valves on the HLT and MT only (I'll light my boiler with a manual spark ignition).

I've been searching and reading through the forum to find all of the parts I'll need for this. I liked the one-stop kit nature of the Y8610U setup (see this thread for more on that), but if I read it right, that would mean over $230 per burner which seems excessive. It does have the added benefit of a "controller" to initiate a reignition sequence, but I don't need all that. For me, if a strong wind blows out my pilot I want the pilot and burner valves to shutoff, that's it.

Here's the list of gas parts that I think I need for each automated burner (I'm not including the liquid-side PID, etc). To all you experts, does this look right? (Sawdustguy, kladue, and others come to mind):

66.32 Honeywell VR8200A2132 Link
5.40 LP Orifice 390686-1 Link
5.65 Natural Gas To LP Conversion Kit Link
3.95 24" Thermocouple Link
15.95 Honeywell Q314A4586 Pilot Burner Link
------
97.27 Total

[Prices may vary]

Thanks for looking! Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
 
The part list and prices look right, you do not normally need the Orifice for the pilot or the LP conversion spring for the valve as it usually is included. A 75Va 24 volt transformer should complete the needed parts for a dual valve setup. You might check PEX supply for valve price and see if a combined order would save some on shipping and handling.
 
Thanks kladue. I assumed that the valve came with a NG orifice which needed to be swapped out for the LP version. Are you saying that the orifice and the spring that come with it will work fine with LP?

--
Josh
 
Thanks kladue. I assumed that the valve came with a NG orifice which needed to be swapped out for the LP version. Are you saying that the orifice and the spring that come with it will work fine with LP?

--
Josh

I hope not, cuz I just spent $25 to have 3 of those orifices delivered.
 
I hope not, cuz I just spent $25 to have 3 of those orifices delivered.

Wow I didn't see this before but apparently the conversion kit comes with it:

"Includes: Natural to LP Conversion Kit, One 1/2" x 3/8" reducer bushing, One 3/4" straight flange"

At the bottom of this page.

EDIT:

The pilot burner also comes with the needed conversion orifice:

"Includes: 1/4 in. CC INLET FITTING. SPECIAL MOUNTING BRACKET WITH SCREWS FOR CONVERTING "B" BRACKET TO "A". and LP Orifice"

Which is at the bottom of this page.

--
Josh
 
Thanks kladue. I assumed that the valve came with a NG orifice which needed to be swapped out for the LP version. Are you saying that the orifice and the spring that come with it will work fine with LP?

--
Josh
Normally the pilot comes bagged with the LP orifice, and usually the gas valve has a spring and cap for change over to LP operation. Just remove old spring and cap and replace spring with heavier spring and new cap from package.
 
Ahh, well since I didn't get the conversion kits I guess I'll still need them :D. I bught a 3rd in case I ever need another and don't want to pay $10 'handling' for a $5 part. It's impossible to find anything for propane in my neck of the woods. It's all natural gas or fuel oil in these parts.
 
Can I get away with a single 24 volt 40Va transformer to power both honeywell valves (VR8200A2132) ?

Transformer ratings are new to me, but if I'm calculating this correctly, based on what I've read the transformer size should be:
volts x load current x 125% (for startup factor)
or for each valve:
24V x .3A x 1.25 = 9Va
So I'm figuring 2 valves would be 18Va, making a 40Va transformer plenty, right?

Thoughts?

--
Josh
 
If you are just using the gas valves a 40 Va will work, the 75 Va was the norm for electric ignition systems where the modules pull greater amounts of current. Not knowing if there were going to be changes in the future I suggested the larger transformer able to handle ignition modules as a safety measure.
 
I'm having some trouble figuring out the wiring here. I have a SYL-2362 which is powered on terminals 1 and 2 with 110V. I have the RTD (PT100) wired to terminals 8, 9, and 10 and have configured the PID IntY for P100. The temperature reads correctly, no problems there.

I have a 110V to 24V Transformer powering a terminal block. I would like the PID to control my Honeywell VR8200 valve with 24 volts. Will I be required to use an SSR with this configuration, or is it possible to wire the 24 volts into the PID and have it switched internally to another output of 24 volts to the valve?

--
Josh
 
Use the #13  terminals and set "outY" to 4, this sets up "J2" contacts as the control contacts to turn the valve on.

Thanks again kladue! So just to be clear, you are saying I run my 24V hot into #13 and out of #14 to the valve (and run the 24V neutral direct to the valve). Right?

--
Josh
 
That is correct, just follow programming on PID for the J2 contacts (AL2) and you should be good to go. Some times it is handy to install a SPDT center Off switch to bypass contacts on PID control so you can manually control valve for test firing, or disable valve when you are not ready to use it.
 
That is correct, just follow programming on PID for the J2 contacts (AL2) and you should be good to go. Some times it is handy to install a SPDT center Off switch to bypass contacts on PID control so you can manually control valve for test firing, or disable valve when you are not ready to use it.

Excellent, thanks! Yes, I do plan on putting in an HOA-style switch as you described. For now though, I did a quick test (direct wired without the HOA switch) and got 2 volts when the temp was in, 27-ish volts when the temp was low. :ban: woohoo!

Now to wire in the switches...

--
Josh
 
I'm working on a Brutus build and neglected pilot safety in my initial plan. I already have a 20 psi regulator and 10" bayou burners. 20psi would be too high for a set up with this valve, right?

Any recommendations or existing threads for the most inexpensive way to put a solid pilot safety system on on these burners?

Would this valve work? Link
 
I'm working on a Brutus build and neglected pilot safety in my initial plan. I already have a 20 psi regulator and 10" bayou burners. 20psi would be too high for a set up with this valve, right?

Any recommendations or existing threads for the most inexpensive way to put a solid pilot safety system on on these burners?

Would this valve work? Link

No, that valve, if you read the description, is for 0.5 PSI. Most of the gas valves talked about in these threads are for low pressure propane which is 0.5 psi. You would need a low pressure regulator, not a 20 psi regulator.
 
Just a followup.. I got the HOA switches wired in and everything is working great. The center "Off" position kills the solenoid valve power, the top "Auto" position allows the PID to control the solenoid valve, and the bottom "Fire" position sends power directly to the solenoid valve to open (ignoring the PID).

Here's the control panel:

IMG_0027.jpg


Testing with the RTD tees (Lonnie Mac style):

IMG_0005.jpg


The RTD inputs and valve power outputs (24V):

IMG_0012.jpg


Power in:

IMG_0013.jpg


Pump power out without the covers (I'm planning to swap these out with the female version anyway, for safety's sake):

IMG_0014.jpg


The control panel wiring. The box I used has a clear back, so this is looking in the back of it:

IMG_0011.jpg


From left to right:
- 2 x output power modules 110V (pumps)
- 110V Terminating block (top)
- 110V to 24V Transformer, 40VA (middle)
- 24V Terminating block (bottom)
- 2 x SYL-2362 PIDs from Auber (in on/off mode)
- Input power module 110V (fused).
- The HOA switches are on either side of the transformer.

--
Josh
 
You can get them from Allied Electronics.
I buy the Altec Corp brand for all my projects.
They come with clear Polycarbonate front or plane like I use them.
If you use the clear front you need to do a neat wiring job;)

100_5623-1.jpg


http://www.alliedelec.com/search/se...nclosures&N=4294790446+4294818401&Ntk=Primary

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

I cant see any of the picts from this computer. Do those enclosures come with back panels? ya knoe so you can mount things like relays and such in them?
I cant wait to get to my computor tomorrow to see this build.
Cheers
Jay
 
Do those enclosures come with back panels? ya knoe so you can mount things like relays and such in them?
No, optional.

I have never used the panel, the enclosure has multiple mounting standoffs I use for the DIN rail.
The Altec enclosures are used for the small projects only.
Like this one.
b32289de-1.jpg



Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
The control panel wiring. The box I used has a clear back, so this is looking in the back of it:

IMG_0011.jpg


From left to right:
- 2 x output power modules 110V (pumps)
- 110V Terminating block (top)
- 110V to 24V Transformer, 40VA (middle)
- 24V Terminating block (bottom)
- 2 x SYL-2362 PIDs from Auber (in on/off mode)
- Input power module 110V (fused).
- The HOA switches are on either side of the transformer.

--
Josh[/QUOTE]

The setup I am ready to wire up is almost identical but I have 2 24v transformers ?

How were you able to use only one?
 
The setup I am ready to wire up is almost identical but I have 2 24v transformers? How were you able to use only one?

The transformer receives 110V in and outputs 24V to a terminating block (bottom of picture). I then come off of that block into each of the PIDs (via a switch).

--
Josh
 
Ok I have a problem. The gas valve will not open. the pilot light stays lit in the on position and i have 24v to the gas valve but it wont open?

so we are clear it is the same Honeywell 8200 thermostat

The "TR" terminal goes to terminal 14 (24v+) and terminal 13 goes to the positive side of the transformer

The "TH" terminal goes to the negative side of the transformer

I only have 2 wires to the 2 terminals on the valve right ?
 
I do have a 30 psi regulator is this my problem?
If so what regulator do you recommend ?
 
Dam I was wanting to brew on this thing "automated" this weekend but now it looks like I'll have to order a low pressure regulator from somewhere?

So do I just need to drill out the burner orifices or can you buy a low pressure "jet" for the Banjos?

I have gathered some people drill them out , can you give me a bit size to start with?

I can't believe I didn't pick up on needing the low pressure conversion .:(
 
For the regulator, check with a RV supplier for a Marshall 299 2 stage regulator or equivalent, for the burner gas fitting a 3/32" drill bit will do the trick. The automatic gas valves are built to stay closed above .5 psi to keep things from blowing up if the main regulator fails.
 
There is an internal pressure regulator in each valve, I hope you have the stronger spring installed for propane pressure. You can adjust the flame level with a screwdriver after you remove cap, open any down stream valve wide open and then tune for maximum fire you want and replace cover on valve.
 
There is an internal pressure regulator in each valve, I hope you have the stronger spring installed for propane pressure. You can adjust the flame level with a screwdriver after you remove cap, open any down stream valve wide open and then tune for maximum fire you want and replace cover on valve.

Yea I converted it to Propane and the internal regulator is screwed all the way in.

All of my gas lines are 3/8'' or 1/2'' id

I'll play with it later and maybe post some pics to see if anyone can see a problem.
 
Are the gas fitting jets drilled to 3/32", maximum size would be 7/64" if 3/32" does not give enough flame.

They are 3/32



I got to brew on mine today ! :rockin:

The flame was fine it just wasn't what it was on HP.:mad: The next batch will be 10g so we will see how it does with that .

The only problem I had was the temp wasn't calibrated right so I had to compensate about 10*. I need to get that PITA manual out and figure out how to calibrate it.

Other than that this things WAY COOL!!!:mug:
 
Are the air shutter disks all the way open?, another suggestion is to close them until the tips of the flames just start to turn yellow, that is the point of maximum heat. The yellow tip flames are the point where the least amount of gasses are being made with complete combustion and the maximum amount of heat stays under the keg skirt. A couple 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" holes in the keg skirt on the back side will make a big difference also, the burners will be happier and the flame will run across keg bottom, not out from under keg skirt.
 
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