GFCI Question

I am 95% done with my E-Brewery. I tested the system and everything works great except for one thing that concerns me. When I hit the test button on the GFCI it does not trip the breaker. Here is what I have.

40A breaker in my main panel running 6/2 (2-120V hots and ground) wire going to a range/dryer plug. I then ran 8/2 wire and 3 prong range plug to a spa disconnect. Connected two hots to the line lugs in disconnect, and ground to ground bar. Then ran the two load wires out of the breaker and ground to ground bar. There is no neutral as this is only 240V. I ran the neutral pigtail from breaker to the neutral bar but their is nothing attached to it.

I have been hearing different answers to this. Some say you need the neutral for the test button to work properly, others say it should test properly without a neutral attached. I just want to make sure it is working properly.

p.s. thanks to everyone who has posted some great info on this site, it has helped me a lot with this project.

enid said:

I am 95% done with my E-Brewery. I tested the system and everything works great except for one thing that concerns me. When I hit the test button on the GFCI it does not trip the breaker. Here is what I have.

40A breaker in my main panel running 6/2 (2-120V hots and ground) wire going to a range/dryer plug. I then ran 8/2 wire and 3 prong range plug to a spa disconnect. Connected two hots to the line lugs in disconnect, and ground to ground bar. Then ran the two load wires out of the breaker and ground to ground bar. There is no neutral as this is only 240V. I ran the neutral pigtail from breaker to the neutral bar but their is nothing attached to it.

I have been hearing different answers to this. Some say you need the neutral for the test button to work properly, others say it should test properly without a neutral attached. I just want to make sure it is working properly.

p.s. thanks to everyone who has posted some great info on this site, it has helped me a lot with this project.

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the 120v GFCI's i just installed in my basement less then a week ago need to have power to them to trip. they do nothing if you take them out of the box and start playing with the buttons. older GFCI's i have and see on my jobs will click and reset without power.
seriously consider running 4 prong plugs. that is NEC , or maybe just CT code. either way it is for your safety.
other than your neutral (white) wires, and your 1 (120v) or 2 (240v) hot leads (black and/or red) , you should have a seperate ground wire, (either green sheathing or bare copper) that wire will go from the green stud on your GFCI, and should connect to every metal box your power is running through. that ground wire needs a seperate path all the way back to earth ground at your panel. every metallic thing that your wires travel through needs to be bonded to that green/bare copper wire. (i'm sure you know that, but that might help someone in a search later on)

EDIT:, it appears you do need the 4th wire for that box. look at the link below and read the top box

here's a pic


remember, better to be safe then sorry, it only takes 1/4 of 1 Amp to KILL you. ( that goes through my head every time i hear a transformer buzzing over my head, or i smack my hard hat on a power line. )

you need a neutral for it to work properly, you have no gfci protection as wired. just swap your ground for neutral. both ground and neutral should be bonded at the main service panel.

You can't just swap the ground for the neutral!!! To do this correctly you need a piece of 8-4. By not having a ground your playing with the ability of the circuit breaker to trip out on a short circut to ground!

So what I am understanding is I need a white neutral to go into my spa disconnect and connect to the neutral bus, but I do not need it going out on the load side?

your right, i made a bad assumption that some one would not use a bare cu for neutral. but on 220v 3 wire outlets there is no ground. two hots and a neutral. the neutral acts as the the ground.

You need a seperate ground in addition to the neutral

lincoln said:

your right, i made a bad assumption that some one would not use a bare cu for neutral. but on 220v 3 wire outlets there is no ground. two hots and a neutral. the neutral acts as the the ground.

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That makes sense. I assume in my main panel (will check) all neutrals and ground tie into same bar.

You need a seperate ground in addition to the neutral

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So either way I will have to run new wire with 4 wires (2-hot, neutral, & ground) to my original range outlet, change outlet to 4 prong, change plug on existing range to 4 prong (only use 3), and change plug & wire from outlet to my disconnect.

Correct?

enid said:

That makes sense. I assume in my main panel (will check) all neutrals and ground tie into same bar.



So either way I will have to run new wire with 4 wires (2-hot, neutral, & ground) to my original range outlet, change outlet to 4 prong, change plug on existing range to 4 prong (only use 3), and change plug & wire from outlet to my disconnect.

Correct?

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that is the correct and safe way to do it :rockin:

Djlunchbox said:

that is the correct and safe way to do it :rockin:

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I understand this is the way to do it.

But trying to understand why it should be done this way, I want to ask another question. If I run a new 4 wire line to disconnect, what is the difference connecting the ground to neutral in disconnect (which they say not to do outside main panel)?

When running new 4 wire line I will have a white neutral and a green ground bonded in the same bus in main panel and two 120v hots to disconnect.

What is the difference if ground / neutral is connected in main panel or in sub panel to a dedicated service?

After thinking about it, is it because the ground could potentially carry current from sub panel back to main panel?

yes, you got it. the ground wire acts as a safety for you. if something happens with the neutral, you won't become the path of least resistance to ground. the ground wire will. look at it as a safety net for us if we are standing in a puddle of wort i see alot of homes in my job, where they have a lifted neutral at the weather head, or close to it. most are older homes where the earth ground has corroded and what not. so since it has no good path to ground, the electricity uses our system (catv) for its ground. you can tell when the lights in the house are flickering , or only half the lights work. either that or when you disconnect the ground wire from our system to the cold water/ground rod, a huge spark jumps. if you don't pay attention, you're dead. thats why i am passionate about good grounds.

as far as your question, to be honest, i think its just to make sure it's done "correctly". it gives a better connection if you will.

There's usually resistance on the neutral and this can effect how and if a circuit breaker will trip if there isn't a ground

Got new 4 wire and ran it today and hooked it up. Everything working great. Thanks everyone.

Here are my two cents:

Your feed to your spa panel should be a 4-wire feeder. At the spa panel (as this is a sub panel) your ground and neutral should be isolated (you should have a ground bar tied to the box and neutral bar not electrically connected to ground in the spa panel).

Your GFCI breaker (in the spa panel) should be connected to the Neural bar but there is no need to run a neutral conductor to your element (assuming it is 240V). This is fine as a 3-wire cord/plug with 2-hots and a ground (from the spa panel).

This, as an electrical contractor myself, is the way I believe it should be done. It may be what you have already done, but I got a little confused reading through the posts.

Cheers!

lschiavo said:

Here are my two cents:

Your feed to your spa panel should be a 4-wire feeder. At the spa panel (as this is a sub panel) your ground and neutral should be isolated (you should have a ground bar tied to the box and neutral bar not electrically connected to ground in the spa panel).

Your GFCI breaker (in the spa panel) should be connected to the Neural bar but there is no need to run a neutral conductor to your element (assuming it is 240V). This is fine as a 3-wire cord/plug with 2-hots and a ground (from the spa panel).

This, as an electrical contractor myself, is the way I believe it should be done. It may be what you have already done, but I got a little confused reading through the posts.

Cheers!

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This is the way it is now. And everything is working good.

Thanks

enid said:

This is the way it is now. And everything is working good.

Thanks

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Great! You should be safe. Now brew some good beer