Dortmunder Export Advice

My co-brewer and I are brewing what the new guidelines call a German Helles Exportbier - previously called a Dortmunder Export. I've listened to St. Jamil's podcast on brewing Dortmunders and perused the HBT recipe database for inspiration. Here's our current iteration of the recipe:

Dortmunder Export
Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.50 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Equipment: Pot and Cooler (10 Gal/37.8 L) - All Grain

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054
Bitterness: 27.0 IBUs
Est Color: 5.2 SRM
Single Infusion, Batch Sparge
Mash at 155F for 60 minutes

Ingredients
10 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 85.1 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 12.8 %
4.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.1 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 22.7 IBUs
1 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 5 -
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 2.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 1.5 IBUs
Danish Lager (Wyeast Labs #2042) [124.21 ml] Yeast 8 -

Am making a big yeast starter, will step it up once or twice. Usually, we start our lager fermentation out at 50F, let it go for a month, d-rest for a day or two, then into a 40ish fridge for lagering for a month. But St. Jamil suggests starting the lager fermentation at the lower temp, low 40s, and then move it up to 50, before d-rest and lagering. So, that's what we're going to try with this one.

Anyone have any thoughts about the Helles Exportbier or Dortmunder Export, including why did Gordon Strong change the name? Any advice, thoughts, experiences?

Pappers_ said:

Anyone have any thoughts about the Helles Exportbier or Dortmunder Export, including why did Gordon Strong change the name?

Click to expand...

Probably because no one in Dortmund brews one anymore.

Spartan1979 said:

Probably because no one in Dortmund brews one anymore.

Click to expand...

DAB doesn't brew in Dortmund anymore? Or Kronen? I didn't know that.

Pappers_ said:

DAB doesn't brew in Dortmund anymore? Or Kronen? I didn't know that.

Click to expand...

There are still breweries there, they just don't brew what "Dortmunders" were.

Spartan1979 said:

There are still breweries there, they just don't brew what "Dortmunders" were.

Click to expand...

Ok, that got me curious enough to actually look it up, and the two leading examples of the style in the 2015 BJCP style guidelines are DAB Original and Dortmunder Kronen. So that's probably not it. Maybe its just a general trend to move away from tying the name to a geographical area and describing the beer - an export strength Helles.

In any case, anyone have experience in brewing this style? What do you think of our recipe? Any advice or counsel?

Pappers_ said:

Ok, that got me curious enough to actually look it up, and the two leading examples of the style in the 2015 BJCP style guidelines are DAB Original and Dortmunder Kronen. So that's probably not it. Maybe its just a general trend to move away from tying the name to a geographical area and describing the beer - an export strength Helles.

In any case, anyone have experience in brewing this style? What do you think of our recipe? Any advice or counsel?

Click to expand...

I think your overall numbers in OG, IBU, and color look good. A Dortmunder is not an export-strength Helles IMO. Besides simply a higher OG it has more body & "firmness", a little chew if you will. It's also one of the few German styles that benefits from a relatively high sulphate count in the water. While the hop IBUs are just about the same as a typical German pils the hops have more presence due to the sulphate.

You could think about adding a little Carapils/Carafoam to up the body and for some extra graininess I like some chit malt in the mix (if you can find it and want to be Reinheitsgebot compliant or use flaked barley otherwise). The 2042 yeast works well with the beer.

I'm mashing in the mid-to-high range to increase the body in the mouthfeel, also.

I'm brewing a Munich Helles this weekend, and a Dortmunder Exportbier is on my list of beers to brew. I'm very interested in reading how this one turns out. Sounds like you've got a great recipe there, Pappers. I'm not sure about leaving it to ferment for an entire month before ramping up for a d-rest; I'd consider starting the d-rest while you still have at least 25% attenuation remaining (less than 2 weeks, in my experience). Also, make sure you start with super-clean water (RO, distilled), then build up the desired mineral profile, and perhaps some yeast nutrient. Oxygenate with pure O2, if you can.

I agree with kombat that fermenting it for a month might be a little long. I would watch the fermentation and probably go closer to two-three weeks. Additionally, I like the advice for oxygenating with pure O2 if you can, but I've also brewed a Dortmunder by shaking to oxygenate and it fully fermented.

I think the most critical aspect is to get your fermentation temperatures down to about 50F and keep them there. I've read about others fermenting warmer, and maybe it has worked for them, but I think you're just asking for off flavors if you do. With a Dortmunder (and a Helles), you have very little to hide behind and it is easier to pick up on off flavors.

Thanks for your thoughts. I worry about doing the d-rest too soon because I have had fruity ester flavors that I've attributed to that, although I can't say for sure what the cause was. How long do you do the d-rest, @kombat ? I always oxygenate with O2, but usually go with Chicago water which is pretty good for general brewing. I won't build up the water for this one, I'll leave that variable for a future iteration.

J-Drew said:

I think the most critical aspect is to get your fermentation temperatures down to about 50F and keep them there. I've read about others fermenting warmer, and maybe it has worked for them, but I think you're just asking for off flavors if you do. With a Dortmunder (and a Helles), you have very little to hide behind and it is easier to pick up on off flavors.

Click to expand...

The good news is that temp control isn't an issue for me, we've got the equipment. I'm planning on starting this one at 40F, then ramping up to 50F before the d-rest, per Jamil's advice. Then lagering, of course.

When I first started doing lagers, I had a big problem with acetaldehyde. I would ferment at 50°F for 7-10 days, then let it warm up to room temperature for a couple of days, then cold crashed and kegged. I frequently had green apple taste. Now, my standard lager schedule is to just leave it at 50° F for a full 14 days, then warm it up to room temp for another full week. Since adopting that schedule, I haven't had nearly as much acetaldehyde.

I've not had the acetaldehyde issue with my lagers yet, although I haven't done that many. The big problem I had with one batch was that it was just too fruity/estery, not clean enough. Ahhh, the mysterious ways of yeast . . .

The more batches I've brewed, the more I'm becoming convinced that the single most important factor is the yeast. We can argue about recipes, or mash temperatures, or hot side aeration, or trub/no trub in the fermenter, quick-chill vs. no-chill, but in my opinion, after more than 100 batches, nothing has the potential to ruin a batch more easily and completely than mistreating the yeast. Whether that be underpitching, underaerating, poor temperature control, rushing them, whatever. I now tend to go overboard with my yeast, aerating every batch with 60-90 seconds of pure O2 through a stainless stone, building huge starters and deliberately overpitching, and being meticulous about my temperature control (don't pitch until the wort is at the target temperature, measure temp with a thermowell, use both a freezer and heating belt to maintain temperature within 0.3° C in either direction, give the yeast plenty of time to finish). The difference in my beers has been profound.

kombat said:

The more batches I've brewed, the more I'm becoming convinced that the single most important factor is the yeast. We can argue about recipes, or mash temperatures, or hot side aeration, or trub/no trub in the fermenter, quick-chill vs. no-chill, but in my opinion, after more than 100 batches, nothing has the potential to ruin a batch more easily and completely than mistreating the yeast. Whether that be underpitching, underaerating, poor temperature control, rushing them, whatever. I now tend to go overboard with my yeast, aerating every batch with 60-90 seconds of pure O2 through a stainless stone, building huge starters and deliberately overpitching, and being meticulous about my temperature control (don't pitch until the wort is at the target temperature, measure temp with a thermowell, use both a freezer and heating belt to maintain temperature within 0.3° C in either direction, give the yeast plenty of time to finish). The difference in my beers has been profound.

Click to expand...

The more I think about this post, the more I like it.

Yup... Fermentation, fermentation, fermentation. (And sanitation but that's pretty much a given). Everything else is pretty forgiving.

I brew quite a few dortmunders...... perhaps one of my favorite lagers. I think your recipe looks great. VERY similar to what I brew regularly. I really like the Danish Lager Yeast for Dortmund's. In my experience it can take a while to drop clear, and I sometimes use gelatin on it - but it makes a great lager.

I don't have my recipe in front of me, but I think I use a bit more hops early and less late than what you have. I think I go 30-35IBU's to get the "lingering bitterness" after each drink. I think it is important to have a crisp, assertive (not overpowering) bitterness to distinguish the beer as a Dortmund as opposed to a "big helles."

I like and agree with your fermentation thoughts - I have found similar. I have 4 lagers lagering right now and basically started them all at 50 for a week, let them go to 52 second week, 54 for another few days. Toward end of week 3 I take them out and let them sit at low -mid 60 for 2-3 days. Then drop temps back down a bit every day to cold crash. Keg, and lager at 32 for 4-8 weeks.

I don't go overboard on Sulfates, even though style mentions it at times.

I agree the name change is perhaps related to moving toward a more uniform way of recognizing broad regions/strengths/colors - seems to be the general theme behind all the categories.

Looking at my recipe..... very similar. I use a touch of cara amber to get SRM up to 5.7 (but no melanoiden).

Hops are hallertau - 1.5 at 60, 1.0 at 30, 1.0 at 5..... but this is for 6.25 gallon batch after the boil.

Thanks, @Braufessor

Brewing this tonight. Someone at BSG asked me if I would try brewing with their Weyerman Barke Pilsner, so will be using 10 lbs of that tonight. Looks interesting:

Barke® is a variety with all-round advantages: Agronomically, it has relatively short, sturdy stalks and is fairly resistant to leaf rust, leaf scald, net blotch, and mildew. In the malt and brew houses, it excels because of its large kernel diameter, good kernel homogeneity, good germination potential, superior diastatic power, excellent extract yield, high apparent attenuation, moderate levels of soluble nitrogen, and low beta-glucan values. Only its friability rating is average. A wort made from Barke® also maintains its color well during the kettle boil. This makes it a particularly sought-after base malt for pale ales and blond lagers, especially for Pilsners. In the finished beer, Barke® contributes a good body, a rich and deep malt aroma, and a creamy head with good foam stability.

These are some of the reasons, why the Weyermann® Malting Company has decided not to let Barke® be forgotten, even though Barke® is now being superseded in large-scale agriculture by newer thoroughbred-varieties with even higher extract and attenuation values. Weyermann® can do this, because it sources virtually all of its barley from reliable contract farmers, who plant their fields exactly to Weyermann® specifications. Therefore, Barke®, as an all-time great in the history of barley varieties, with its unique qualities especially for artisanal beers, will continue to have a home in the portfolio of Weyermann® specialty malts for years to come.

Barke® - © Horst Dornbusch, 2013

Click to expand...

Following up on this. It turned out great. Won a Silver Medal at the Bluegrass Cup competition this summer. We've been drinking it steadily and enjoying it quite a bit. Ended up fermenting @40F for five days, then raised it to 50F for four weeks, then lagered and aged it at 40F for eight weeks.

Fermented at 40F? Wow that's low.

beersk said:

Fermented at 40F? Wow that's low.

Click to expand...

Started it at 40F and then raised it to 50F for a month. I tried it that way because of advice Jamil Z. gave on one of his podcasts. He said for lagers he pitches below his fermentation temperatures, leaves it there briefly, then moves it up.

Pappers_ said:

Started it at 40F and then raised it to 50F for a month. I tried it that way because of advice Jamil Z. gave on one of his podcasts. He said for lagers he pitches below his fermentation temperatures, leaves it there briefly, then moves it up.

Click to expand...

That's how I do mine too, but not starting at 40F, more like 45-47F, let rise to 49-50F.

Necro'ed because I wanna make a killer Dortmunder. Is there a yeast substitute for Wy2042 that works well for this? It sounds like it's important to pull some sulfur notes from a combo of the yeast and water, not just water alone.

cactusgarrett said:

Necro'ed because I wanna make a killer Dortmunder. Is there a yeast substitute for Wy2042 that works well for this? It sounds like it's important to pull some sulfur notes from a combo of the yeast and water, not just water alone.

Click to expand...

WL 850 is listed as a white lab equivalent.
Can basically never find 2042 anymore. I generally use 2124 now.