What happens when you use your pump to shoot water at your control panel

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bf514921

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I was going to make a fresh, wet hop ipa today, picked the hops yesterday at my friends farm, and was going to finish picking the hops today that i grew at my house while it was mashing. i was planning on hopping the hell out of it, with the freshest stuff i could. I even took the day off just to make beer. went upstairs to get a bite to eat came back downstairs and this had happend.
100_21431.JPG

notice where the hose is pointed, it used to point in the HLT. I feel like a genius. the gfci tripped, the main breaker in the breaker box was not tripped. My breaker in my main breaker box is 30 amp, the spa panel si 50 amp, but the gfci tripped and stopped bad thinks from happining. i don't know if i broke/or smoked all or any of the components. but no one was injured, and no brew buddy dogs were injured in this incident. now i will spend the day cleaning up.
 
I saw the title of this post and I was a afraid to read it - good thing no one was hurt. Hopefully when all the electronics are completely dried out again it'll all come back to life with nothing fried!
 
This is why I am designing my system to use QDs/camlocks/etc. for ALL connections to any part of the process, and will use the loc-line for recirculation, etc.

I have already had this happen with my current setup with no control box. Stuck the end of the hose in there, turn around and all of a sudden there's hot liquid spraying all over...
 
Now I absolutely rest my case about the use of a Spa Panel to protect the brewer and the brewery.

I'm glad all is ok (I'm certain that it is). Thank you for posting this.

P-J
 
yeha, considering the spa panel is a 50am gfci, and my house breaker for the dryer outlet is a 30amp, wouldnt wire it any other way. glad i did the research to use the gfci in the middle, it was money well spent.
 
Now I absolutely rest my case about the use of a Spa Panel to protect the brewer and the brewery.

I'm glad all is ok (I'm certain that it is). Thank you for posting this.

P-J
Not to be off topic, but isn't the use of a GFI breaker in the box the best scenario? I only ask because I opted to put the GFI in the box rather than buying a spa panel:confused:
 
Well, the idea behind the spa panel is to have the GFI protection upstream. I think PJ is referring to people who put the GFI function inside the control panel. If you're talking about putting it in the main panel way upstream then yes, it's even better than the spa panel but only marginally so.
 
Well, the idea behind the spa panel is to have the GFI protection upstream. I think PJ is referring to people who put the GFI function inside the control panel. If you're talking about putting it in the main panel way upstream then yes, it's even better than the spa panel but only marginally so.
Bobby_M,

This is true. I believe it is a bad idea to place the GFCI breaker directly in the brewery control panel as there would still be raw power available in the panel even if the GFCI were to trip. In the case of bf514921's happenstance, he would be in a very risky situation.

If the power run is achieved through existing circuits (a dryer or range outlet), placing a GFCI in the mains panel might not be a workable solution. If the outlet is a 3 wire arrangement, the whole plan changes dramatically.

Last thought on this: The Spa Panel cost is significantly less than just buying a GFCI breaker that will fit your mains panel - never mind the cost of rewiring the circuit to accommodate it. And then, will your dryer work on the GFCI protected circuit?

P-J
 
I agree with you, but I'd like to hear why you think that.

All sorts of imagined (and unimagined) things that could go wrong between the control panel and the wall. Any short between the GFCI and the wall will be disaster unless the 30A panel breaker trips, and by then you're probably dead (although your body won't trip it I'm sure, you'll just burn for a while).

If there's a cord between the panel and the wall, that's an Achilles's heel right there. Cords get damaged.

Water spraying on the panel could easily short the line(s) to the case before the GFCI. This might trip the 30A panel breaker, but probably not. You'll know about it next time you touch the panel if your ground is not bulletproof. Even a good ground might be on the order of several ohms on its way back to the box, in which case a hot metal case will be raised quite a bit, depending on the fault current running through it to earth. You might not get hurt, but depends on how good of a conductor you are on that day. Ever brew barefooted?

Theres all sorts of chaos that will create situations I can't think of. If you have a very good ground, and it's connected to all exposed metal, that will save you in most cases, but not all.

If you read up on GFCI's you'll see that they are designed for the sole purpose of saving your life, but only if the fault is after it and not before. I'm not even comfortable with the spa panel... I put the GFCI in my breaker panel.
 
Bobby_M,

This is true. I believe it is a bad idea to place the GFCI breaker directly in the brewery control panel as there would still be raw power available in the panel even if the GFCI were to trip. In the case of bf514921's happenstance, he would be in a very risky situation.

If the power run is achieved through existing circuits (a dryer or range outlet), placing a GFCI in the mains panel might not be a workable solution. If the outlet is a 3 wire arrangement, the whole plan changes dramatically.

Last thought on this: The Spa Panel cost is significantly less than just buying a GFCI breaker that will fit your mains panel - never mind the cost of rewiring the circuit to accommodate it. And then, will your dryer work on the GFCI protected circuit?

P-J
Time out, this guy's setup had zero GFI protection between outlet and spa panel. If the wort sprayed onto the outlet or cord( and it looked like it did..) that sucker could go hot to ground with the brewer as the link. This is exactly why I dont like the spa panel approach. I believe we should be promoting a GFI to the box/ dedicated circuit approach. The arguement of saving money on a spa panel is mute if some dies:( If you cannot afford a GFI breaker and a some #6awg, then you should stick to propane. I'm not trying to be a richard, but this thread really struck a chord with me. Brew safe everybody:mug:
 
It really depends on your setup McCuckerson. I use a spa panel but it's right next to both my dryer outlet and breaker panel in the opposite corner of the room from where I brew. There's really not much chance of anything happening to it there IMO.
 
It really depends on your setup McCuckerson. I use a spa panel but it's right next to both my dryer outlet and breaker panel in the opposite corner of the room from where I brew. There's really not much chance of anything happening to it there IMO.
You're right, position of the spa panel is important.
 
Now I absolutely rest my case about the use of a Spa Panel to protect the brewer and the brewery.

I'm glad all is ok (I'm certain that it is). Thank you for posting this.

P-J

I suppose if you're going to direct pump water into your panel.... I would hope he's in the minority.

Sorry, I had to. :)


_
 
I suppose if you're going to direct pump water into your panel.... I would hope he's in the minority.

Sorry, I had to. :)
_

The stories I could tell of the stuff that happened to me MANY moons ago when I first started in the electrical industry. (1957 as a 17 year old kid) I damn near got - nevermind....!!!!

Hey, you don't want to do GFCI? Go for it and play you bet your life.!

Take a little time and read the NEC for the current requirements for electricity in wet areas and areas with tile or concrete floors as well as ALL electrical applications outside of the house living space.

(So sorry - you touched a hot button of mine. I appologize.)

P-J
 
I am kinda concerned that water was able to get into the panel at all. A brewery should be a "wash-down" environment. Get some sealant on that panel (although the GFCI is vital, backup protection) i don't want GIFC as my primary protection during an accident.
 
As long as my thread serves the puporse of someone else learning and improving there design, then i am all for it. i would rather a fellow brewer learn from my mistake, and say what a bonehead why do that, then good. as for the spa panel, it was a cheaper option than replacing the breaker in my box with a gfi breaker. as to the achilies heal, if you look in the picture you are correct there is a pigtail to the spa panel, then from the panel to the control box. and i am ok with the jokes, thats cool too. After drying out the controls, i believe the plug for the element is what case the gfi to trip. everthing worked correctly tonight in a water run, including the pump. the case is sealed, but the face with the controls is not, that is where water was able to get in. the inside of the box was almost dry except the bottom.

100_21431.JPG
 
As long as my thread serves the puporse of someone else learning and improving there design, then i am all for it. ...

You did nothing wrong... your system looks great. Yes, the spa panel should be mounted as close to the outlet as possible, and QDs are def in order. Sorry if I came off harsh. Frankly, the picture is pretty funny when you take a good look at it.

Giant props to you for taking the picture in the first place (who thinks to do that?) and having the huevos to post with the knowledge that it might result in forum follies. :mug:
 
yeah its funny now, because of two critical things.
1. i wasn't hurt neither were any three of my brewing buddies (my dogs)
2. system saved itself, that i think is huge.

either way, someone will learn from this
 
This thread answered important questions for me....I just asked the other day about using a 50 amp spa panel with a 30 amp dryer fuse and got helpful answers, but your post reaffirmed that it's cool to do.
Thanks...and glad you, the dogs and your system ( I like the setup, those drawers rock!) are all ok.
 
Time to go back to using the ol' cooler and single burner setup....bwahahahahaha. Welcome back my friend...welcome back.
 
You did nothing wrong... your system looks great. Yes, the spa panel should be mounted as close to the outlet as possible, and QDs are def in order. Sorry if I came off harsh. Frankly, the picture is pretty funny when you take a good look at it.

Giant props to you for taking the picture in the first place (who thinks to do that?) and having the huevos to post with the knowledge that it might result in forum follies. :mug:

passedpawn - You mention the spa panel should be as close to the outlet as possible. Did you mean to the dryer outlet, or to the brewing control panel? I am considering a setup using a spa panel in my garage where I have a dedicated 100 amp service, and running my 125 foot extension cord I use for my welder from there to my brew house on brewing days(brew house wiring is not rated for the amps required for electric brewing). Extension cord is triple - 4Ga conductors. Will this cause me a probelm and will the gfci still work as intended?

Thanks,
 
passedpawn - You mention the spa panel should be as close to the outlet as possible. Did you mean to the dryer outlet, or to the brewing control panel? I am considering a setup using a spa panel in my garage where I have a dedicated 100 amp service, and running my 125 foot extension cord I use for my welder from there to my brew house on brewing days(brew house wiring is not rated for the amps required for electric brewing). Extension cord is triple - 4Ga conductors. Will this cause me a probelm and will the gfci still work as intended?

Thanks,
Underlined - Is that a 3 wire extension cord? If so, you really need to mount your Spa Panel in your brew house so that you can develop the neutral/ground needed for your brewery. If you need to know how to do this, let me know.

Just don't mount the GFCI Spa Panel in or on your brew rig.

P-J
 
passedpawn - You mention the spa panel should be as close to the outlet as possible. Did you mean to the dryer outlet, or to the brewing control panel? I am considering a setup using a spa panel in my garage where I have a dedicated 100 amp service, and running my 125 foot extension cord I use for my welder from there to my brew house on brewing days(brew house wiring is not rated for the amps required for electric brewing). Extension cord is triple - 4Ga conductors. Will this cause me a probelm and will the gfci still work as intended?

Thanks,

I meant the GFCI should be as far outside the brewing area as possible. Ideally, it is in your breaker box, but if not then get it outside the "wet zone". From the post above, you can see the wet zone is probably bigger then we imagined!

So, you would want the spa panel in your garage at the far end of the extension cord. The 2 hots and the neutral can run through the extension, but your ground can be staked right there in your brew house. Any exposed metal should be tied together and then bonded well to that earth ground. I think that would be OK, but now that I re-read that I don't know. [edit] actually this probably wouldn't be a good idea. You need to feed the ground from the service box to the building. The GFCI might be OK with a different earth ground, but likely a breaker won't trip on a fault. And probably it's against code anyway, so nevermind.
 
Underlined - Is that a 3 wire extension cord? If so, you really need to mount your Spa Panel in your brew house so that you can develop the neutral/ground needed for your brewery. If you need to know how to do this, let me know.

Just don't mount the GFCI Spa Panel in or on your brew rig.

P-J

Yes it is a 3 wire extension cord, so would I be better off putting the spa panel in the brew house, using the extension cord to run 2 hots and a neutral then sinking a new ground rod at the brew house for a ground? or is there a better way to get neutral and ground?

Thanks,
 
Yes it is a 3 wire extension cord, so would I be better off putting the spa panel in the brew house, using the extension cord to run 2 hots and a neutral then sinking a new ground rod at the brew house for a ground? or is there a better way to get neutral and ground?

Thanks,
I'd really like to talk this out with you so that I understand all of the detail that you are faced with.

If you don't mind, please send me a PM with contact info and I'll call you to talk it out.

P-J
 
first, that is one helluva extention cord, second, don't know whay it would be a problem, is the cord plugged into somethig that is already a gfi?
 
i was wondering about the spam, i was thinking poeple replied to my thread get all excited and bam, spam. is it some kind of bot or something?
 
i was wondering about the spam, i was thinking poeple replied to my thread get all excited and bam, spam. is it some kind of bot or something?

Yeah there is a handful of bots/spammers that come in and run up their post counts to blend in and then wham spam the **** out of the place. Before they fixed the links they would post the 5 posts to hit the mininum to start a thread and then spam the general forum.
 
nope no one injured, figured if i posted my boneheaded move, others could learn, maybe go that extra step to make things even safer. of course we could just order one of kals killer panels and be done with it :).
 
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