About to re-brew a Cascadian Dark Ale (AG)

This will be my third attempt at brewing up the Cascadian Dark Ale (Black IPA) and I dug my last two efforts, but I want to try and get just a touch less "roast" flavor. So I will be mashing in the Carafa III Special only when I begin to sparge in order to get a half hour worth of color, but no real flavor to speak of. I attempted this method my first try with some normal Black Roasted Malt and it "worked" though not really as well as I wanted it to. Still got that coffee like flavor. Here is the recipe as of now, it could well change a good bit, but only in the hops as I don't think I have much amarillo right now. I might run out.

Cascadian Dark Ale #3
10 Gallon

OG 1.080ish / FG 1.015ish / Color 38/ IBU 90ish

30 lbs of Two Row
1.75 lbs Carafa III Special (steeped the last 20minutes of mash)
1.88lbs Crystal 60L

1 Centennial 2.00 FWH
2 Columbus 1.00 FWH
3 Columbus 1.50 60
4 Cascade 2.00 60
5 Amarillo 2.00 20
6 Northern Brewer 1.00 20
7 Cascade 2.00 5
8 Columbus 1.00 5
9 Amarillo 2.00 5
10 Amarillo 2.00 DH
11 Cascade 2.50 DH


2 x US-05 Packet

Mash at 149 for an hour, boil 90min, ferment at 66* for three days and then ramp to 68* for 10 days. Dry hop on day 14 for a week and bottle on day 21.

That is the plan anyways :rockin:

Brewed it up, hit my numbers and the color is very nice. It was a great brewday although it rained the entirety and we got 2 inches. Very happy with it and the beer that we drank along with it. My brewing partner was worried that we had too much sediment in a beer that we bottled, but it was just the last of the bottling bucket so it had all of the sediment.

Did it get you as dark as you wanted?

Since I was trying for a less roast flavor, I was noticing a little bit less color than I was looking for. That said, it is still very dark. I would say though, it is about 30-35 SRM and when I added the Carafa for the full 60min I got 40SRM and a roasty flavor. So I don't mind getting a hit on some of the color as long as I can limit the roast flavor. Does all that make sense?

oh wow, so that short of a soak still pulled off like 75% of the L. Could you notice any carafa flavor/aroma from the sample or was it just pure color from it? That'd be great if this could be done to darken any brew without any unwanted flavor/aroma.

Don't expect zero flavor/aroma, but just know two things. First off is that Carafa and Roast can darken it up really quickly. Think like coffee. The smallest amount of time that I can figure it needs is 15 minutes and about 20-30 worth of mashing seems to be right (don't forget to count the sparging time after). So I threw this in at 20 minutes left and then figure on a 15 minute sparge, so I am looking at 35 minutes worth of soaking. Next is that for zero aroma or flavor, then you can't really use this stuff. It will give you a little bit of roast flavor, but the hops really cover up a lot of the flavor and aroma. I mean, there are 19oz of hops in this guy!

I ran into some clogging issues because I used whole hops in the boil and no hop bag. That is a mistake I will never make again!

Some people do a steep outside the mash with a french coffee press and then add that liquid to your brew to darken it up. I don't do this because I don't think it makes that big of a difference.

Matt Up North said:

Next is that for zero aroma or flavor, then you can't really use this stuff. It will give you a little bit of roast flavor, but the hops really cover up a lot of the flavor and aroma. I mean, there are 19oz of hops in this guy!

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lol well I imagine there isn't much 19oz of hops wouldn't cover up. That's unfortunate about the aroma/flavor. Does that mean even sinamar adds more than color since its made of carafa? I was hoping to try to make a black witbier, but that doesn't have anywhere near 19oz of hops to cover it up

You can always try. Just make sure you get the Carafa III Special as it is debittered and doesn't have quite the roasty flavor. It still might throw some roast, so adjust accordingly. Make up a 2 gallon batch so that if it is foul, you only have to drink 10 bottles.

Matt, this is sort of off topic, but have you considered PNW Pale Malt? It's a 3SRM 2-row that would help you get an extra point or two of color which could help you to use a half pound less of carafa or other dark grain.

I have considered doing something similar, and considered the PNW 2-row a must. It is what all these guys up here use to make their CDA's (and everything else) anyway.

dkershner said:

Matt, this is sort of off topic, but have you considered PNW Pale Malt? It's a 3SRM 2-row that would help you get an extra point or two of color which could help you to use a half pound less of carafa or other dark grain.

I have considered doing something similar, and considered the PNW 2-row a must. It is what all these guys up here use to make their CDA's (and everything else) anyway.

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Nope. I have been really close to just use my normal recipe for IIPA and add some dark malts, but I use Crystal 20L in that and I wouldn't get the color I am looking for. As I say, having made this before, I am just fine tuning it to my tastes and have found that I just want less roast. I don't mind a little bit less color. That all said, I will take your advice and maybe search out some PNW two-row. I have gone all over the boards though with American Two Row, British Two Row and Canadian Two Row. So far, I am no more the wiser so to speak. The hops really take over the flavor.

how much crystal sweetness are you getting in this recipe? I'm thinking of using this recipe, but im worried about 60L being too high.

You could just sub the caramel for some darker caramel and maybe try something dark but less obtrusive...chocolate maybe? What do you think about 120L and a hint of chocolate?

I think your foray into extracting color with little flavor from malts is a cool one...but there may be an easier way.

I made a CDA and I used Carafa III special. I added it to the mash just before sparging. Added alot of roasted malt/coffee flavor. Too much even. My LHBS has Crisp black malt 675L I would add that instead of the Carafa. Let us know how it turns out.

alcibiades said:

how much crystal sweetness are you getting in this recipe? I'm thinking of using this recipe, but im worried about 60L being too high.

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I am making a 10 gallons batch and that equates to 5.2% total grain. I typically am in that range for my crystals, so no...not too sweet.

dkershner said:

You could just sub the caramel for some darker caramel and maybe try something dark but less obtrusive...chocolate maybe? What do you think about 120L and a hint of chocolate?

I think your foray into extracting color with little flavor from malts is a cool one...but there may be an easier way.

Click to expand...

I think that there are three ways to make this beer. First being my recipe (Stone's Recipe) where there is little roast flavor but black color on an IPA base. Second being what the Oregon people are doing in your neck of the woods where there are roasty flavors in a very hoppy beer. Third being black food coloring (sinimar) being added to an IPA and calling it a Black IPA.

This recipe is meant to get color, little roast and a lot of flavor and so I don't want to put any roasty caramel malts in it to accentuate that and have gone the Black Roasted route to get color, but I mashed it the full hour and it got a little too much roasty flavor. Chocolate, to me, is out of place in this recipe in any large amounts. That said though, the Oregon brewers seem to think it works and they are selling beer, so it must be working.

Rentachik said:

I made a CDA and I used Carafa III special. I added it to the mash just before sparging. Added alot of roasted malt/coffee flavor. Too much even. My LHBS has Crisp black malt 675L I would add that instead of the Carafa. Let us know how it turns out.

Click to expand...

You will get a certain amount of a roasty flavor from this malt. I mean, it isn't a magic coloring bean How much hops/IBU's did you put into your beer and did you late hop and dry hop it? I really find that the hops can cover up a lot of the roasty flavor so that you still have a very dark colored IPA that is super hoppy. I have tried mine after five months and the late hops have mellowed just enough to allow some of that roast to come back out to the forefront. Still a damned fine beer!

Just checked the gravity on this guy. I was figuring about 1.016 and it is sitting right at 1.018 or so, so I am in the range I am looking for. Down from 1.080, so good fermentation! Added the 2oz of Centennial and 2oz of Amarillo as Dry Hop and will check it again in ten days when I bottle her up. It tastes nice and a little bit roasty as I thought it would be. Very happy with it right now and can't wait for it in the bottle!

any updates??

Hey guys. I just had a Widmer W '10 Pitch Black Ale and loved it. I am going to attempt a recipe along the lines of it /Cascadian Black Ale and wanted to see

1) Matt, how did yours turn out?

2) What do you think of the following:

6 gallon batch
60 minute boil
11# Pale 2-row
1# Carafa III (Weyerman)
1# Caramel Malt 10l (Breiss)
.50# Chocolate Malt
.50# Special Roast

I have a ton of hops in my freezer, so I am looking to do something along these lines:

1oz. Centennial (60 min)
1oz. Cascade (60 min)
1oz. Amarillo (30 min)
1oz. Cascade (15 min)
1oz. Cascade (5 min)
1oz. Centennial (dry hop)
1oz. Cascade (dry hop)
Mash at 149-150 for 60 minutes
I think I am going to use Nottingham as the yeast to get a nice clean fermentation.

Putting this into Beersmith give me the following:

1.063 OG
1.013 FG
6.53% ABV
41.2 SRM
69.2 IBU

I don't want much in the way of coffee / roasted flavors (or as little as I can get by with) but obviously want the dark colors with a nice malty body. Thoughts?

i would say the 1 lb of carafa will not make a 6 gallon batch 'pitch black' but it will be pretty dark. if you don't want the roasty flavors, you probably don't want to go too far. i'd also dial back the choco malts to .5 to keep the roast flavors down. i also really like what .5 biscuit malts did for the flavor of a buddies' CDA, but i was too late to add them to my own.

there are of course many perturbations :cross:

EDIT: Also, I tossed my aroma hops in at flameout instead of 5 min.

Much appreciated Powers. Dialing down the chocolate dropped SRM to 41.2. Any thing I can do to make it darker without adding a lot in the way of roast/coffee flavors? Maybe a tiny bit of 2-Row black malt? Never used it before but from what I have read it has a neutral flavor and used for color adjustment.

here's another helpful forum on CDAs: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/cascadian-dark-ale-recipe-163258/.

the recipe there might be different than what you are going for, but some of the discussion you may find useful.

sinmar is a black coloring agent i believe, but i'm not sure if its economical or accessible to the homebrewer. i've never tried it but i see it mentioned in threads about how to make a CDA blacker without the roasty flavor.

i'd suggest you start a new forum thread with your recipe and see if others can chime in on how to make it darker without increasing the roast/coffee flavors too much.

as you can see, i posted for updates on this thread and didn't receive a response. i think this discussion is fading.

Thanks Powers. I agree! And will do