Give me the jist on whirlpooling for hop flavor

skydiver30960 said:

Aha, great info! Just what I needed. As far as recipes go, I'm usually a "balanced ales" kind of guy, keeping the IBUs much lower than most of the people in this thread would think was criminal. BUT, that's because I'm not a big fan of the bitterness that I usually get from the higher IBU stuff I make. SO... here we go!

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skydiver, I'm not sure what part of the country you are from, but in Texas we have an awesome IPA called Yellow Rose from Lone Pint Brewery. It's got a ton of lush fruity aroma and flavor, and a very smooth bitterness. It's also a SMaSH, so really simple to clone. My LHBS owner and member of my brew club knows the owner, and watched them brew it one day. He observed that they brew with mostly all late additions and a huge hopstand and dry hop. He helped me come up with this clone recipe.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/279814/ramblin-rose-smash-ipa

If the 79 IBUs scares you (it shouldn't) you could drop the 10 and 5 minute additions back to 1 oz and you'd be in the low 50s. This is a really nice beer. I've had friends who I never believed would drink an IPA not only drink this, but love it. Even some women who don't drink much beer at all loved it.

I did Maine beer company's peeper pale ale which has a documented recipe on here from the Brewer. it was particularly helpful to put it in beersmith, see what IBUs it expects, brew it, and compare that side by side with the commercial example.

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

Calder said:

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect. Based on many peoples reports, it obviously is wrong.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

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Why do you say that it is obviously wrong? I don't pretend to understand the chemistry, but that is pretty much what I've been saying this whole thread. (that IBUs come from the boil, not the hopstand)

TxBigHops said:

Why do you say that it is obviously wrong? I don't pretend to understand the chemistry, but that is pretty much what I've been saying this whole thread. (that IBUs come from the boil, not the hopstand)

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Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.

Maybe I will edit my last post.

Calder said:

Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.

Maybe I will edit my last post.

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OK, so you mean in other threads. Obviously it's not possible to follow every thread, but that's not something I have personally seen presented. Like I stated earlier, I don't know all the science, but it's been my understanding from my own research that little to no IBUs are contributed after the boil.

I believe that alpha acids can still isomerize (causing bitterness) all the way down to 175-180° F. So, you can get bitterness after "the boil", it just won't be too much.

Calder said:

Maybe I said it wrong. There appears to be a lot of people who have percieved an IBU contribution from hopstands, that I would like to know what is wrong with my understanding of how bitterness is created in wort.



Maybe I will edit my last post.

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I have experienced an IBU contribution from whirlpooling at flameout for sure. I had yet to read and remember the magic temp so I put 4 oz of Citra in at flameout and the results weren't pleasing to me at all.

Calder said:

I thought IBUs were products produced by isomerization of the hop oils in the wort, as the hop oils responsible for the bitterness are not readily dissolved in water/wort.

I also thought isomerization occurs when a fluid is evaporated and then drops back into solution .......... I'm sure there is a lot wrong with this 'chemical' analysis of the process.

If the above 2 statements are true, then there should be almost zero IBUs developed once boiling stops.

Would like to know where my above assessement is incorrect.

I've never tried to hopstand above 175 as I think you are just wasting the oils that evaporate at temps above 175. I get all my IBUs from the boil. So I have no experience with hopstands near boiling.

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Isomerization is a change in the physical structure of a compound whilst its chemical structure remains unchanged. What you are describing is condensation of one variety or another.

Alpha acids from the hops isomerise over a range of temperatures. It is generally considered that they do not significantly isomerise much below about 180f.

You are correct that it is isomerised alpha acids which are largely responsible for hop bitterness.

So if you throw in some hops at flameout and then whirlpool, you will be getting some increase in IBUs as the wort is still hot enough to be isomerizing the alpha acids. Lots of commercial breweries operate in this manner, either transferring the wort to a separate whirlpool tank where they add hops, or adding hops and whirlpooling in the kettle.

Here is my process. It has been producing the flavor I enjoy. Very low on bitterness. Below is for a 10 gallon batch.

Fwh with a small amount

At 5 mins left, add an addition

At flameout, add the whirlpool hops. Cool to 190 immediately and steep for 15 min. Cool to 175 and add 30 whirlpool addition. Steep for 30 mins. Cool to 140 or less as fast as possible.

Ferment 2-3 weeks.

dry hop at 63(ambient basement temp for 3-4 days), move to fridge and chill to 34, let stand for 3 more days before removing dry hops

Details here- http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/967004/azacca-dust-hop-stand

The BYO article http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands states "Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C). Homebrewers trying to calculate a beer's IBUs will need to guesstimate how much isomerization is occurring. The closer the wort is to 212 °F (100 °C) the higher the alpha acid isomerization rate." My experience is consistent with this. Hop stands starting at 190 give me significant additional bitterness, but those starting at 160 don't. Not scientific, but BYO is a respected source IMO.

I dig that there is no "power off" temperature where the removal of the hop oils will just stop. I do imagine, however, a law of diminishing returns, were as the wort cools the oil extraction is reduced.

If you're just pitching hops at a certain temp and letting things cool naturally, is there a end-temperature beyond which most folks figure it isn't worth the time to keep standing? I think I should be concerned about anything below 140 degrees, simply for the purposes of keeping things as microbe-free as possible.

skydiver30960 said:

I dig that there is no "power off" temperature where the removal of the hop oils will just stop. I do imagine, however, a law of diminishing returns, were as the wort cools the oil extraction is reduced.

If you're just pitching hops at a certain temp and letting things cool naturally, is there a end-temperature beyond which most folks figure it isn't worth the time to keep standing? I think I should be concerned about anything below 140 degrees, simply for the purposes of keeping things as microbe-free as possible.

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Not much point going below 140, because most of the oils that are volitile below that temp were driven off during the drying process.

I kegged this yesterday. I did a 7 day dry hop (1.5oz/5gal), I ended up with great attenuation so I went from 1.061 to 1.006 with WLP001. It tasted really great and flavorful without a strong amount of bitterness going into the keg. I'm excited this to try this when it carbs up. I did a bit of rocking and put it on high pressure so I hope its ready to pour a few pints this weekend for the super bowl.

So no full report yet, but I could already tell that this beer had a lot of hop flavor without a ton of bitterness that my other IPA attempts have had, i'm pretty psyched about the whirlpooling method now for sure!

HausBrauerei_Harvey said:

I kegged this yesterday. I did a 7 day dry hop (1.5oz/5gal), I ended up with great attenuation so I went from 1.061 to 1.006 with WLP001. It tasted really great and flavorful without a strong amount of bitterness going into the keg. I'm excited this to try this when it carbs up. I did a bit of rocking and put it on high pressure so I hope its ready to pour a few pints this weekend for the super bowl.

So no full report yet, but I could already tell that this beer had a lot of hop flavor without a ton of bitterness that my other IPA attempts have had, i'm pretty psyched about the whirlpooling method now for sure!

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congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

m00ps said:

congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

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Yeah I already see myself falling down this rabbit hole!

m00ps said:

congrats! watch yourself though, its a slippery slope

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BTW: your avatar should be titled "Lactobasaurus" or maybe "Lactoraptor."

Pulled the first pints of this one for the Super Bowl this weekend, this is far and away the best IPA I have made yet. There is tons of juicy citrusy flavor from the falconers flight '7-C's blend I used, and a real lack of over-bitterness that turns me off from many ipas.

Thus I conclude, as many before me have: Whirlpooling is awesome and took my IPA to that next level. It will be standard practice henceforth for my hoppy beers.

Or we can actually test it....http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

Anyhowe said:

Or we can actually test it....http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

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Great read... Those guys at Brulosophy do a great job.

Something else I haven't really seen discussed much... Any hops you add to the boil - in my case I am adding 2oz at 15 min - will also be giving off more IBUs during a whirlpool/hop stand as well?

I would think 2oz isn't enough to really give a ton of bitterness through the whirlpool/hop stand, but I would still be curious to find out the mechanics behind that... you know, for science!

noslenwerd said:

Something else I haven't really seen discussed much... Any hops you add to the boil - in my case I am adding 2oz at 15 min - will also be giving off more IBUs during a whirlpool/hop stand as well?

I would think 2oz isn't enough to really give a ton of bitterness through the whirlpool/hop stand, but I would still be curious to find out the mechanics behind that... you know, for science!

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I believe that's a yes. If I recall correctly, most of the Brulosopher's experiments use hop socks for carefully controlling this factor.

noslenwerd said:

Something else I haven't really seen discussed much... Any hops you add to the boil - in my case I am adding 2oz at 15 min - will also be giving off more IBUs during a whirlpool/hop stand as well?

I would think 2oz isn't enough to really give a ton of bitterness through the whirlpool/hop stand, but I would still be curious to find out the mechanics behind that... you know, for science!

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I see no reason why those 15min additions would not be adding bitterness during the hopstand. To try and better control my IBU for this brew i used a hop spider and pulled the bittering additions out when I cut the flame and prepped for the whirlpool.

Moment of hilarity: my first-ever hopstand attempt, I finish the boil, then set the kettle in the cooling bath (per usual procedure). Hmm, I thinks to myself, I'd say about fifteen minutes would be the first time to check the temperature... I was guessing it'd still be super hot at that point as I usually leave the kettle in the bath for 75 minutes before pouring into the fermeter.

Yeah... so... after only fifteen minutes the temperature was already down below 140. Crap.

Well, maybe next time?

Some people wait till 140 to add the hop stands.