homebrewmike
Well-Known Member
I have never made a yeast starter, I've always just pitched using Wyeast or White Labs. What are the benefits of doing a yeast starter? Will it really make the beer that much better?
Just pitch or yeast starter
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beerkrump
Well-Known Member
Simply, yes make a starter from liquid yeasts. There are not enough cells for a good start to your fermentation.
A little less simply, yeast has an aerobic and an anaerobic phase of growth. During the aerobic phase oxygen and food(sugar) are used to increase the number of cells. During the anaerobic phase, food is used for cell growth. In the anaerobic phase, some of the byproducts of the aerobic phase are absorbed and alcohol is produced. If the cell count is low, the aerobic phase maybe longer, precious sugar is used, and more byproducts produced.
*- the above is an off the cuff generalization and by no means a complete treatise on yeast metabolism.
A little less simply, yeast has an aerobic and an anaerobic phase of growth. During the aerobic phase oxygen and food(sugar) are used to increase the number of cells. During the anaerobic phase, food is used for cell growth. In the anaerobic phase, some of the byproducts of the aerobic phase are absorbed and alcohol is produced. If the cell count is low, the aerobic phase maybe longer, precious sugar is used, and more byproducts produced.
*- the above is an off the cuff generalization and by no means a complete treatise on yeast metabolism.
wyeast is pretty emphatic that you don't need a starter with their smack packs if the OG is less than 60. i pitched a 4.25 gallon batch of brown ale on saturday with a smack pack and no starter and had fermentation within 12 hours.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=1#r19
what's your OG and fermentation temp?
http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=1#r19
what's your OG and fermentation temp?
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homebrewmike
Well-Known Member
I dont go over 1.060 due to equipment constraints with my all grain set up and I usually ferment around 65-72 degrees.
This is true IF YOU GET A FRESH PACK! Yeast viability goes down as the pack ages, so if you use a pack that's a few weeks or more old, you'll start getting in to the funky flavors from underpitching. the Mr Malty calculator adjusts your starter size for pack age, and the starter then offsets the loss of viability.
I still vote for starters though, I've noticed a big difference using them.
beerkrump
Well-Known Member
They are. However, their package also states that there are 100 billion cells in the pack. Even at 100% viability, that's less than half of what you would want for a 1.060 beer.
The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.
And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.
Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.
You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.
Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.
Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.
Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.
So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.
Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.
I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;
Mrmalty.com
But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator Mrmalty.com
And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.030, you should be making a starter for.
Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.
Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.
And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.
Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.
You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.
Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.
Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.
Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.
So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.
Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.
I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;
Mrmalty.com
But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator Mrmalty.com
And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.030, you should be making a starter for.
Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.
Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
Plus its really cool to watch the stir plate hum away.
Down and dirty yeast starter. 1/2 cup DME in 650 mls water in a one liter flask. I use this on anything below 1.065 and it works just fine.
I haven't heard of anyone who tried starters then went back to not using them..... Pez.
I haven't heard of anyone who tried starters then went back to not using them..... Pez.
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homebrewmike
Well-Known Member
Well I think on my next batch I will give it a shot. Do I need a stir plate, or is it optional? What's the benefit?
A stir plate is optional and the benefit is increased cell count. I do not use one and just shake/swirl the starter whenever I walk by.
It is either Midwest or Northern brewer that has a kit including a one liter flask, a pound of DME, and a foam stopper you can clean with sanitizer or boil. Cheap and easy.
Someday I'll probably get a stir plate. Pez.
aubiecat
Well-Known Member
Looking at Yeastcalc.com it says that a pack of yeast even with today's date
05/08/12 is 97% viable.
04/08/12 one month old is 75% viable.
03/08/12 two months old is 53% viable
02/08/12 three months old is 33% viable.
01/08/12 four months old is 11% viable.
Even at their generic starting OG 1.048 if your yeast is even two weeks old you might not be able to build the proper yeast with one 1.5 liter starter. Considering that the yeast you get from a retailer might be two weeks to one month old that gives you something to think about when you are getting ready to brew.
I have pitched yeast from the pack of a Wyeast smack pack and that made good beer. Once I started using starters and pitching the proper yeast counts the difference in taste alone is remarkable. It shows on the people's faces when they taste my beer and it is very satisfying.
05/08/12 is 97% viable.
04/08/12 one month old is 75% viable.
03/08/12 two months old is 53% viable
02/08/12 three months old is 33% viable.
01/08/12 four months old is 11% viable.
Even at their generic starting OG 1.048 if your yeast is even two weeks old you might not be able to build the proper yeast with one 1.5 liter starter. Considering that the yeast you get from a retailer might be two weeks to one month old that gives you something to think about when you are getting ready to brew.
I have pitched yeast from the pack of a Wyeast smack pack and that made good beer. Once I started using starters and pitching the proper yeast counts the difference in taste alone is remarkable. It shows on the people's faces when they taste my beer and it is very satisfying.
I disagree based on my own experience. Make a starter if the beer is over 1.040.
As stated above, stir plates are optional, but dramatically boost reproduction, reducing the size of starter that you need to make. I got this one back at Christmas (on sale, lucky me). It's very affordable and it works great. I recommend it.
https://bellsbeer.com/store/products/StirStarter-%2d-Yeast-Starter-Stir-Plate.html
I used just a gal. glass jug for years before I got a stir plate. The stir plate speeds things up, but I made hundreds of viable starters without one.
I highly recommend visiting the site www.mrmalty.com, and reading the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" by Chris White, Ph.D. (White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff. I had been making decent beer, but chronically underpitching yeast before being turned on to these resources. Following the guidelines presented by these knowledgeable authors I have moved my beers from good to great. The web site has a yeast pitching rate calculator that is easy to use. There is also an app for the iPhone. I have created recipes for yeast starters in half liter increments from 1 liter up to 5 liters in my Beersmith application. I simply use the mrmalty calculator and round up to the nearest half liter. I know from experience that you can make beers that taste good without making a yeast starter and underpitching yeast. However, if you want to make beers that taste like they are designed to taste, you need to heed the advice in these resources.
