GFCI breaker on control box?

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Pez

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Has anyone had luck mounting a GFCI breaker directly onto their control box?

I would like to use an existing 30A outlet and mount the breaker on the control box instead of in the breaker box.
 
It won't be easy. Breakers are meant to snap down onto power rails inside of the electric panel.

I think someone tried it recently, but I cannot remember who it was or what level of success he had.
 
If you use a DIN style GFCI, you can also buy a piece of the rail, to mount with screws to the back of the panel.
Other than that, not only you can, but it'd be a good thing, as GFCI's tend to work better the closer they are to the load. Just make sure you install it in a way that it'll be protected from any potential spills, and where you won't accidentally hit it with something, and make sure you have a very good connection at the outlet, or, better yet, if you can, try to make a permanent connection to the wall.
 
Kal recently discovered these cables do not meet NEC code for gfci. These are 10ma, NEC dicates 5ma. Basiclly how fast the gfci will trip. Europe code is 10-30ma, so you decide if you want to use them. I am still going to use mine.
 
Please explain why you think this.

I have had bad experiences with GFCIs installed with more than 10ft of wire between them and the load. Wire is reactive (it has inductive and capacitive components) and tends to introduce a delay on the GFCI response time, especially when the load is also reactive (like an electric motor, for example), and, in some cases (happened to me only once, in an install that had water inside the tubing), the added capacity is enough to trip the GFCI for no reason at all.
 
I would like to use an existing 30A outlet and mount the breaker on the control box instead of in the breaker box.

Why?

I have had bad experiences with GFCIs installed with more than 10ft of wire between them and the load. Wire is reactive (it has inductive and capacitive components) and tends to introduce a delay on the GFCI response time, especially when the load is also reactive (like an electric motor, for example), and, in some cases (happened to me only once, in an install that had water inside the tubing), the added capacity is enough to trip the GFCI for no reason at all.

GFCI breakers do not trip for no reason at all.
GFCI breakers do not trip because of reactance.

GFCI breakers do trip because of current leakage, usually from ground.
GFCI breakers do trip on the appliance that has amperage higher than rated amperage of the GFCI breaker.

GFCI breakers can have false trips when the load is submerged. False trips will happen regardless of the location of the breaker (whether it's in the control box or in the breaker panel).
 
GFCI breakers do not trip for no reason at all.
GFCI breakers do not trip because of reactance.

GFCI breakers do trip because of current leakage, usually from ground.
GFCI breakers do trip on the appliance that has amperage higher than rated amperage of the GFCI breaker.

GFCI breakers can have false trips when the load is submerged. False trips will happen regardless of the location of the breaker (whether it's in the control box or in the breaker panel).

Nothing in electricity happens for no reason at all. What I meant is that the GFCI would trip for no apparent reason.
GFCI's do trip because of current leakage. Reactance produces current leakage. Capacitance between a hot wire and ground will cause an AC leakage. If that capacitance is high enough, the current leakage will be high enough to trip the GFCI.
GFCI's don't have false trips when the load is submerged. If the load is submerged, the GFCI is supposed to trip.

What I said before I said because of years of personal experience, working as an electrician, and as an electronics technician in industrial environments. I'm sure you think you know all possible theoretical scenarios about GFCI's. Mine are real World scenarios.
 
I'll accept all that (regardless of truth/validity) just to save grace, but what does all that have to do with the location of the breaker? I thought that was the whole point of this thread.
 
Nope. The whole point of this thread is about the feasibility of mounting the GFCI on the control box. The advantage of doing so was just some extra advise, and has been already explained to you.
 
That's alright.
Sorry if I came up a little harsh. I thought you were trying to start another endless dispute...;)
 
It's all good, buddy! You brought up a couple good topics that, as a EE, I love to discuss! Especially reactance. That is probably the most misunderstood EE concept.

However, I have to ask: Have you ever actually brewed beer?

I ask because everything discussed in this Electric Brewing forum is application-specific. Your brewing experience is just as important as your electrical experience. Your electrical experience may not mean much to someone unless you have some good beer to back it up. Just my opinion though!
 
Well, "beer", what you call "beer", no, I haven't. I'm unemployed, and he money I make fixing computers is barely enough to pay the rent, so buying grains and stuff is out of the question. So far, I'm trying to get some brewing experience by brewing "something" out of chick peas. Not the tastiest of brews, but it's something.

And you're right about reactance. I don't think I ever seen more myths about any other electrical or electronic parameter. You just have to search the web and see the number of scams that revolve around capacitors and coils...!:D
 
Well, "beer", what you call "beer", no, I haven't. I'm unemployed, and he money I make fixing computers is barely enough to pay the rent, so buying grains and stuff is out of the question. So far, I'm trying to get some brewing experience by brewing "something" out of chick peas. Not the tastiest of brews, but it's something.

And you're right about reactance. I don't think I ever seen more myths about any other electrical or electronic parameter. You just have to search the web and see the number of scams that revolve around capacitors and coils...!:D

As much as I appreciate you relaying your electrical experience on here, I suggest you try homebrewing before you post on an electric brewing forum. :p
 
My hot tub has a gfci built into it's control panel so it can be done. And I have brewed beer.

Do not all hot tubs have a GFCI breaker installed in it's control panel?

All hot tubs must be GFCI protected; therefore, the manufacturer must install a GFCI breaker in it's control panel... right?
 
As much as I appreciate you relaying your electrical experience on here, I suggest you try homebrewing before you post on an electric brewing forum. :p

Why? Electricity doesn't change just because you use it on a homebrewing setup. I don't give advise on homebrewing specific issues.
 
All hot tubs do not have gfci installed. All hot tubs must be gfci protected but it doesn't have to be on the hot tub. It can be in the breaker box. I just was mentioning that gfci breakers can and have been installed on a control panel. Nothing more than that.
 
All hot tubs do not have gfci installed. All hot tubs must be gfci protected but it doesn't have to be on the hot tub. It can be in the breaker box. I just was mentioning that gfci breakers can and have been installed on a control panel. Nothing more than that.


All spas have GFCI breakers inside of them for the heating panel only BUT for it to be to code it must be plugged into a GFCI outlet. They want power to be completely cut off from the unit in an emergency, without an external breaker the power will not cut off to the tub, only the tub heater.

I personally would rather have the GFCI external and not on the panel so no power is going to the panel at all if the breaker trips.
 
Really? C'mon man change your tude, If you are soooooo freakin smart then help him out and don't insult him.

How about you mind your own business and let the man talk for himself?

How about you two stop polluting the thread?

McCuckerson: I appreciate the support. I didn't feel insulted by Earthbound. If I had, this thread would probably be locked by now.

Earthbound: maybe you think acting like an a-hole makes you look tough. Everybody looks tough on the Internet. You haven't provided a single piece of information to help answer the OP question.
What do you say you stop the trolling, and spend a little more time helping others, instead of confronting/judging them?
 
Back to the topic at hand ... IMHO ... GFCIs are very important. They provide a safety net for CERTAIN situations. Unfortunately, it seems that many people pay too much attention to the installation of GFCIs and not nearly enough on actually generating a proper grounding schema in the first place. GFCI's are not a replacement for a proper grounding strategy, but are an additional safety measure on-top of a solid grounding strategy. I will do a bit of research and see if I can post one of my favorite white papers by Allen & Bradley on Industrial Control Panel Grounding. It will hopefully shine some light on the approaches that the EU (and finally OSHA/NFPA/NEC) are taking to ensure end-user safety of electrical control devices.

Be Safe!

WBerry
 
:D:D Don't take it like that. I do, honestly, appreciate your comment. I'm just getting really tired of people derailing threads like that. Seems to be a popular sport in this forum.

About Earthbound, like I said, everybody's tough on the Internet. Maybe he even thinks he's funny...
 
OK so back to the ORIGINAL POST. The reason I wanted to mount in the control box was so I didn't have to replace my dryer breaker with a GFCI, and if I ever move then I won't have to take the breaker with me.

This is why I chose the 30A GFCI cord. I can just switch to any dryer outlet anywhere. Interestingly enough, the cord says "use on Xerox equipment only"

I definitely plan to have a solid grounding system so no worries there.
 
OK so back to the ORIGINAL POST. The reason I wanted to mount in the control box was so I didn't have to replace my dryer breaker with a GFCI, and if I ever move then I won't have to take the breaker with me.

This is why I chose the 30A GFCI cord. I can just switch to any dryer outlet anywhere. Interestingly enough, the cord says "use on Xerox equipment only"

I definitely plan to have a solid grounding system so no worries there.

Thanks for pushing the reset button on this thread. Sure, that makes sense. I would've mounted a GFCI breaker in the control box, though... a bolt-on breaker that I could mount to the enlosure's back panel. I only say that because the cord says to use on Xerox equipment only.
 
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