Trappist yeast...over pitch??

Hey,
I'm brand new to the forum, and this is my first post...what a great resource this forum is! Anyway, I have ingredients for an extract Belgian Trippel on the way (5 gallon batch). Fearing a weak start (done that too many times), I picked up 2 Wyeast 3787 Trappist smack-packs. I plan on making a starter. Is my paranoia driving to overkill, or will a double dose of Trappist be a good thing?

Most likely it will be a very good thing. Try this: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Yep, for sure you will not be overpitching. That sounds like the perfect amount for a relatively warm ferment. Check your planned original gravity and plug it in the calculator linked above just to be sure, but you just want to be in the ballpark.

I agree. You won't be overpitching.

There are a couple tricks you can do to reduce your lag time. First, make sure the starter temperature is close to the temperature of your wort before pitching. If it's too hot, or too cold, you'll stun the yeast. Another thing is to aerate thoroughly. This is especially important in a strong beer like a Tripel. If you do this and pitch the right amount of yeast using the mrmalty calculator, you should be fine.

Also, I'd avoid doing a warm ferment if possible. The best results for 3787 (from my experience) tend to come from starting at 64f and letting it ramp up on its own from there to about 70 on finishing. I get it down this far by dumping the carboy in an ice bath, and patiently waiting for it to reach 64 before pitching.

Prionburger said:

There are a couple tricks you can do to reduce your lag time. First, make sure the starter temperature is close to the temperature of your wort before pitching. If it's too hot, or too cold, you'll stun the yeast. Another thing is to aerate thoroughly. This is especially important in a strong beer like a Tripel. If you do this and pitch the right amount of yeast using the mrmalty calculator, you should be fine..

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In my experience, this is not true. I make a big starter ahead of time, then chill the starter 2 days ahead of time. On the day of brewing, I decant the liquid and pour only slurry without warming it, thus pitching cold yeast. And I always have visible activity within 3-6 hours of pitching, even with high gravity beers. Furthermore, a lot of people here do this with equally good results. You can search here for "cold pitching" yeast. I think temperature differential is only a problem when you're reducing the temperature of the yeast, but I've never experienced any lag in fermentation from cold pitching and I've done it a LOT.

Anyway, them's my two cents!

With my original OG of 1.073, the mr.malty calculator calls for a single pitch with a 3.7 liter starter, but I only have a 1 liter starter flask. Should I combine both smack-packs into the 1 liter starter, or split the difference; 1 pack in the starter, and a "direct from the pack" pitch with the 2nd?

MattHollingsworth said:

In my experience, this is not true. I make a big starter ahead of time, then chill the starter 2 days ahead of time. On the day of brewing, I decant the liquid and pour only slurry without warming it, thus pitching cold yeast. And I always have visible activity within 3-6 hours of pitching, even with high gravity beers. Furthermore, a lot of people here do this with equally good results. You can search here for "cold pitching" yeast. I think temperature differential is only a problem when you're reducing the temperature of the yeast, but I've never experienced any lag in fermentation from cold pitching and I've done it a LOT.

Anyway, them's my two cents!

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That makes sense. My smack packs start to balloon within an hour or two after smacking them straight out of the fridge, as long as the packs aren't that old. Thanks for this; I'm likely going to switch from doing starters the night before to doing them several days in advance and decanting. That way I can do 2 and 3 quarter starters without worrying about impacting the wort.

Thanks Matt

The temperature difference between the starter and wort is only a problem if you're reducing the temperature of the yeast. It's a problem I run into because I pitch at high krausen into wort that is colder than room temperature.

joety said:

That makes sense. My smack packs start to balloon within an hour or two after smacking them straight out of the fridge, as long as the packs aren't that old. Thanks for this; I'm likely going to switch from doing starters the night before to doing them several days in advance and decanting. That way I can do 2 and 3 quarter starters without worrying about impacting the wort.

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I usually make my starters on Wednesday night, put 'em into the fridge Friday sometime and brew on Sunday. For basic med. gravity beers, 2 liter starters work for me.

Prionburger said:

Thanks Matt

The temperature difference between the starter and wort is only a problem if you're reducing the temperature of the yeast. It's a problem I run into because I pitch at high krausen into wort that is colder than room temperature.

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No problem. Sounds about right.

I'm more or less still a "noob" when it comes to homebrewing, but I've never had any problem with fermentation lag. What I did with my last batch (a 1.08 OG dubbel) was made a 1 Litre starter for the Chimay strain (WLP500) and woke up the smack pack on the Wyeast 3522 (Achouffe). Pitched both at 70F with some yeast nutrient into airated wort - was active in less than 12 hours, and needed a blow-off tube by 24 hours.

I don't think you always need a starter. The Wyeast yeast nutrient is a good product, helps things along with big beers. I think that the smack packs (when used properly) are a pretty good product - when the pack is puffy you know the yeast are (at least) woken up from their slumber.

It's really up to you, whether or not you want to go through the extra step and/or buy a bigger container, boil wort, etc. when you can just try pitching both smack packs and see what happens. I'll bet as long as you've airated your wort, and your pitching temps are appropriate, you will have success.

I didn't see it said, but if you're making a starter you only need one of the smack packs.

I had heard of people making starters and dumping at high krausen, which I generally opposed because it means the liquid from the starter has to go into the beer and if it's made from wort of a different kind of beer it's going to add flavor to the beer, but if you're just using DME or wort of a similar kind, it shouldn't be an issue. I dumped a mere pint of starter at high krausen into three gallons of a 1.098 belgian and it was bubbling away within hours. So there is something to be said for that practice as well...

Can someone articulate the importance and ratios of the starter volume?? I'm a bit confused. The mr.malty pitching calculator recommends (for my OG of 1.073) a 3.7 liter starter, OR...2.7 smack-packs w/o a starter. How would an uniformed gent like myself no how much yeast to add to my 1 liter starter? In theory, couldn't I add 5 smack-packs to make a 1 liter starter??? Sorry if this question is stupid.

A few things you can do:

Practice "intermittent shaking," an option you can pull down from the "simple starter" menu option in the mrmalty calculator. This means you shake your starter every 30mins-hour, which helps remove CO2 from the wort and diffuse O2 in. Be sure not to put an airlock over your starter, a loose tinfoil cover is best. You want air to diffuse into the starter wort. This increases the growth and health of your yeast, which reduces the volume of starter wort you need.

This brings the volume you need down to about 2 liters.

Another thing you can do is add both of your smack packs into the starter wort. This can be done on the mrmalty calculator by reducing the growth factor (because you need less growth if you're starting with double the yeast).

That brings the starter wort you need to 1 liter. Without the intermittent shaking, it's 1.5 liters.

In other words, if you use both your smack packs in your 1 Liter starter, and shake your starter every 30 minutes to an hour while leaving a loose tinfoil cap over your starter container, you'll have the right amount to pitch into your wort.

Prionburger said:

In other words, if you use both your smack packs in your 1 Liter starter, and shake your starter every 30 minutes to an hour while leaving a loose tinfoil cap over your starter container, you'll have the right amount to pitch into your wort.

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Thank you....I think that's exactly what I'll do.
Have I mentioned how cool this forum is???