New CO2 regulations to come

Well, the government has decided that CO2 is now a poisonous gas. Guess what? This stuff will soon be regulated and you'll have to have a license to buy it and transport it. Transportation should fall under the consumer commodity rule, but you have to buy it first. Unless you got a "connection," most businesses may not be able to sell it to you. This sucks. Also, for you roll your own cigarette dudes, there is a bill in the senate called PACT, basically eliminates all transportation of tobacco products over the road. You will no longer be able to buy tobacco products on-line. You'll be limited to your local smoke shops and their selection, which historically are terrible, and their prices, which will go up as they will hold a monopoly. I might as well go ahead and shoot myself.....

and your source?

Which? tobacco or CO2?

I'd like to see the bill #'s for both of these issues?

I feel there are too many businesses and trades that rely on CO2 refills. I can't see how that would work unless getting a license is relatively easy. CO2 being classified as a poisonous gas sounds like the work of a global warming lobbyist.

might not be as dire as you think, according to this thread:

EPA to regulate CO2?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/epa-say...adioactive-drinking-water-is-good-for-us.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/17/epa-to-propose-greenhouse_n_188260.html


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1676&tab=summary

http://www.heartland.org/article/25594/PACT_Act_Threatens_Internet_Anonymity_Online_Commerce.html

This should be enough to get you started on these issues.

Yeah but this is for large manufacturing facilities, not local transportation, small business use, etc.
Not that I would put it past this Federal Gov't to over regulate something just to have more control.
Heck, I'm sure Cap & Tax will make CO2 costs higher regardless.

In my business, it's only a matter of time. The writing is on the wall. "They" know that if there is any sort of loophole, it will be exposed. Just like the tobacco tax hike last year. Roll your own "cigarette" tobacco tax went up 2200 percent. So, the industry changed the labeling to "pipe tobacco," which wasn't taxed no where near as heavily (guess who smokes pipes?). Now, this new PACT Act will wipe out the whole gamut. Trust me, it's coming. Global warming issues will not go away and will only get worse.

CO2 has always been a poisonous gas. Fill a room with it and hang out in there for a while. Pretty sure it wont end well.

annasdadhockey said:

CO2 has always been a poisonous gas. Fill a room with it and hang out in there for a while. Pretty sure it wont end well.

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Same could be said for pretty much any gas. Breathing Oxygen at 100% concentration can cause convulsions, blindness and eventually death.

Or water. Fill the room with that and hang out for a while.

mmb said:

Or water. Fill the room with that and hang out for a while.

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That darn dihydrogen monoxide gets ya every time...

It's all about the money. I figure you're going to be able to get/use CO2, it's just going to cost more.

annasdadhockey said:

CO2 has always been a poisonous gas. Fill a room with it and hang out in there for a while. Pretty sure it wont end well.

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Tell me about it. I've been living on the edge, breathing that **** out my whole life...I know it's only a matter of time until it catches up to me.

waldoar15 said:

It's all about the money. I figure you're going to be able to get/use CO2, it's just going to cost more.

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Ding Ding Ding Ding....we have a winner.
This is how i see it as well

Ol' Grog said:

you'll have to have a license to buy it and transport it.

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Well, I went through the links posted. None of them come so close as to even mention this. So I am assuming it is just personal opinion? If not I'd really like to know, as I am sure we all would with a legitimate source to back it up.

As for the comments on government, I'll leave that alone. This isn't the debate forum.

skibumdc said:

I'd like to see the bill #'s for both of these issues?

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That's the "beauty" of this ruling... there need not be a bill if the EPA considers it to be toxic; it then falls under their charter to do something about it.

The cynic in me says that the Obama Administration is using this as a way to force their "global warming" nonsense on the country without having it go through Congress, where thinking people would object to it. But I can't say this here, since such a diatribe belongs in the debate forum.

Man, a lot of fearmongering here.

How does this count as "global warming"? They are talking about CO2 EMISSIONS, not CO2 PURCHASES. Unless you folks buy CO2 en masse and then just vent it to the atmosphere for kicks, how could you possibly think this will affect you?

There is nothing in any of these articles about licensing for personal purchases of small amounts of CO2. Just like you can purchase and use many VOCs, even though those are pollutants.

This "they are out to get us!" attitude is silly. Do you really think they care about taxing a few HOMEBREWERS for CO2 emissions when they can tax entire multinational corporations??

Yes, for the tobacco issue, they are out to get you. Smokers are the "evil ones" in todays society, (and I say this as a smoker). Deal with it. The general public hates smokers cuz they smoke. It's a great way to raise tax revenue, because most people are in favor of stopping people from smoking out of some weird compunction to improve other peoples' health...(while wolfing down a Big Mac - and I say this as a fatty too!)

Sheesh people, settle down and have a beer, the world is not coming to an end.

when it comes down to it what we are actually buying is co2 that has been taken out of the atmosphere, so it's pretty much co2 neutral (yeah, some power used to seperate it out).

I think they will go after those damn paintballers

+1

And the CO2 we use isn't produced they remove it from the air around us just like oxygen. Our air is mostly Nitrogen ,oxygen , argon , CO2 and water vapor.. and some trace gasses


The EPA is going after cars and power plants that produce large amounts of CO2

That darn dihydrogen monoxide gets ya every time...

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Hydrogen hydroxide is so much safer. At least if it's buffered with malt and ethanol.

springer said:

+1

And the CO2 we use isn't produced they remove it from the air around us just like oxygen. Our air is mostly Nitrogen ,oxygen , argon , CO2 and water vapor.. and some trace gasses


The EPA is going after cars and power plants that produce large amounts of CO2

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Actually, most CO2 that we buy, (and that commercial entities buy), is purified from other commercial processes. Tons of processes have CO2 as a byproduct. Ethanol plants, for example, capture all the CO2 produced from their fermentation and sell it, and that ends up carbonating our beer, (full circle, eh?)

So, buying CO2 from your local welding supply is almost HELPING the environment, since it's providing a second use for the CO2 that would normally just be expelled into the air. Of course, it's not really helping, because one way or anther, the CO2 makes its way up into the clouds, (ether as belches, foam, or a leaky regulator ), but it's not too harmful either.

Purifying CO2 out of plain ol' atmosphere would be a tin-plated biatch. Our atmosphere is only about 0.038% CO2, so it would be extremely energy intensive to separate and purify that. Far easier to capture it before it enters the atmosphere.

Calm down folks. Any legislation applies to power plants and maybe transportation. You know, the type of power plants that emit millions of tons (that's billions of pounds!) of CO2 per year that used to be "buried" as plain carbon underneath the Earth's surface and is now floating around in the middle ranges of the atmosphere. No one's going to knock on your door and take your 20 pound tanks of CO2.

Now feel free to continue any and all fear mongering that you wish.

JeffersonJ said:

Calm down folks. Any legislation applies to power plants and maybe transportation. You know, the type of power plants that emit millions of tons (that's billions of pounds!) of CO2 per year that used to be "buried" as plain carbon underneath the Earth's surface and is now floating around in the middle ranges of the atmosphere. No one's going to knock on your door and take your 20 pound tanks of CO2.

Now feel free to continue any and all fear mongering that you wish.

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Yay! Let's tax and regulate power plants more. Of course the price of electricity won't be affected.

This after I had geothermal heating installed to save the world by using electricity instead of fossil fuels. And a year before I could qualify for the tax breaks announced this year. How awesome.

springer said:

The EPA is going after cars and power plants that produce large amounts of CO2

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I don't know man...my lungs are producing CO2 at an alarming rate as well...****, they have been for years.

I need to be regulated before I bring this planet to its' knees! :rockin:

The worrisome emissions from your CO2 tank don't come from the CO2 itself, but the fossil fuels burnt to power the machines that purify and pressurize the CO2.

On a side note, I really hate how all this tax and caps and stuff get thrown around by legislators, when the only solution to CO2 emissions is the mass construction of solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal power plants. If legislators weren't bought by the coal lobby we'd be there already.

mmb said:

Same could be said for pretty much any gas. Breathing Oxygen at 100% concentration can cause convulsions, blindness and eventually death.

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Don't mean to be petty but you can breathe 100% all day every day and it won't hurt you. Point taken though. I'm with JeffersonJ, I just can't see getting too worked up over this. Makes for good conversation though.

Jmiltime said:

Don't mean to be petty but you can breathe 100% all day every day and it won't hurt you. Point taken though. I'm with JeffersonJ, I just can't see getting too worked up over this. Makes for good conversation though.

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100% Oxygen can be toxic at greater than atmospheric pressure AND for prolonged exposure at atmospheric pressure. Spend to much time on a vent in the hospital and it can also lead to pulmonary issues.

Central nervous system toxicity is caused by short exposure to high concentrations of oxygen at greater than atmospheric pressure. Pulmonary and ocular toxicity result from longer exposure to elevated oxygen levels at normal pressure. Symptoms may include disorientation, breathing problems, and vision changes such as myopia. Prolonged or very high oxygen concentrations can cause oxidative damage to cell membranes, the collapse of the alveoli in the lungs, retinal detachment, and seizures. Oxygen toxicity is managed by reducing the exposure to elevated oxygen levels. Studies show that, in the long term, a robust recovery from most types of oxygen toxicity is possible.

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Jmiltime said:

Don't mean to be petty but you can breathe 100% all day every day and it won't hurt you. Point taken though. I'm with JeffersonJ, I just can't see getting too worked up over this. Makes for good conversation though.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

It'll hurt you bad.

The lower limit for toxicity is 0.3 bar. The partial pressure of oxygen in air is 0.21 bar, (1 bar is atmospheric, and the atmosphere is 21% oxygen...). So, either at greater than 1.3 bar pressure, or at greater than around 30% oxygen, you start to have the effects of oxygen poisoning. You get central nervous system damage at 1.6 bar of oxygen, which is, as mmb said, 1.6 atmospheres worth of 100% O2. But you get pulmonary damage at only 0.5 bar of oxygen, or 50% oxygen at 1 atm.

Thanks for the correction. Many weeks on pure oxygen, or pure oxygen in space and under water can be harmful. Just making the point that we may be worrying way too much about things that aren't really that big of deal. Happy brewing.

sounds to me like groggy is more pissed off about the price of his smoke going up.....

co2 for food service and welding use won't go away, ever. it's dirt cheap now, and even if they raise the price it will still be here.

Do you work for the media? This thread reeks of media 'fear mongering' tactics that are not based on factual sources...

-All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
- Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

-"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies (read Democrats and enviro-whacko liberals). The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
--C.S. Lewis

One one hand, I could see this, because the government loves to regulate everything.

On the other hand, there are far too many soda fountains for them to be easily "banned." Would the government tell every restaurant and convenience store that they cannot use CO2 for dispensing high-profit fountain drinks? Doubt it.

Also, the contribution to global warming by a soda fountain or kegerator is minimal.

Forgot to add: they probably will not ban it, but they surely will figure out a way to tax it and profit.

mjc said:

-All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
- Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

-"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies (read Democrats and enviro-whacko liberals). The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
--C.S. Lewis

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It's interesting that this thread has everyone bordering on political nastiness. It's one thing that there's not much of on this board and something that definitely doesn't belong in this forum. Political squabbling is everywhere else on the internet. Let's keep it out of here. RDWHAHB.

ClarnoBrewer said:

It's interesting that this thread has everyone bordering on political nastiness. It's one thing that there's not much of on this board and something that definitely doesn't belong in this forum. Political squabbling is everywhere else on the internet. Let's keep it out of here. RDWHAHB.

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The man is just quoting some people...what's nasty about that?

Spyd3r said:

The man is just quoting some people...what's nasty about that?

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It's the personal addition to the C.S. Lewis quote. I'm sure we have large numbers of democrats, republicans, libertarians and whatnot on here. No need to point fingers on this board. It's just not needed here.

Yeah, the "enviro-whacko liberal" part wasn't a quote from lewis. These sorts of things could drive people like me, who don't like Winston Churchill at all, to write long responses and make everyone cringe. People want to discuss important things like beer, not my response that would contain Churchill's quote praising Italian fascists in the 20s.

That said, CO2 regulation is a legitimate discussion to have. The answer to people's concerns and response to fear-mongering is simple. Your CO2 tank won't be taxed. However, your gasoline and coal-sourced power will, if the taxes are ever put in place.

Prionburger said:

Maybe you missed the "enviro-whacko liberal" part.

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I just couldn't remember the exact wording of the slur. And now I'm out of this one. I should have kept my yap shut anyway and b1tching back is still b1tching. I'm going to have a homebrew and go to bed!