Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

NamasteIPA said:

I gave that a shot and it basically didn't do any good. I have mind fermenting at between 70-80 degrees for about 2.5 weeks now. I am about to just put the thing outside in the heat (90-100 degrees) and see If I can get this thing to move...

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That should work.

Old thread, I know, but I thought I'd share my experience. I'm fermenting my pumpkin saison right now and I had more of the same results. I used BrewVint yeast fuel in the boil and had my 3724 on my stirplate in a 1.5L starter beforehand. I also pitched some rinsed US-05 to help things along. After about 2 days of HEAVY fermentation, the krausen fell and fermentation declined greatly. Went from 1.060 to 1.035 in the first 5 days. It's now day 9 and the SG is now at 1.032. I pitched hot (by accident) but dropped the temp to high 60s quickly after. I think this hurt me by prematurely dropping some yeast out of solution. Since day 2, I've ramped it up a few degrees and now it's at 80. After reading a few of these posts, I'm now pumping the heat up to 85F. Hopefully if I can keep it at 85F for a few days it'll kick back up and drop down to the expected FG of 1.00x in a couple weeks. I just want this pumpkin saison ready for halloween!

I'm currently on Week 9 of primary fermentation with Wyeast 3724. What a dog! I brewed 10 gallons of a simple Saison recipe (albeit high gravity) and split it between two carboys — one received 3711 and the other 3724. The 3711 has been kegged and on tap for a month while 3724 chugs along.

Fermentation has been as follows:

Aug-15: 1.080 (OG)
Aug-26: 1.042
Sep-12: 1.025
Sep-17: 1.021
Sep-29: 1.019
Oct-05: 1.017
Oct-10: 1.015
Oct-18: 1.015

Since October, I've been agitating the carboy once or twice a day. Has anyone gone this long on the same Wyeast 3724 yeast cake? If I take another 1.015 measurement in 7 days I think I'm gonna call it and rack it to a secondary for conditioning.

What temp has it been at? Have you raised it at all during the ferment?

barrooze said:

What temp has it been at? Have you raised it at all during the ferment?

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B'ah! I should have mentioned that in my post above. I cooled the wort to about 68-70 and pitched. Then I let it rise up to 92 over 5 five days. I kept it at 92 for several weeks but lately it's been hovering at 87.

I finally got mine figured out...it bubbled like mad for 2 days and then kapoot, nothing. Had a heating blanket on it for a few weeks with minimal results. Finally decided to sit it ON the blanket AND wrap it and voila. Now its chugging along

makisupa said:

B'ah! I should have mentioned that in my post above. I cooled the wort to about 68-70 and pitched. Then I let it rise up to 92 over 5 five days. I kept it at 92 for several weeks but lately it's been hovering at 87.

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If it's been at 92 for several weeks and it's stalled at 1.015 for over a week, my opinion is that it's not going to go any further. If you want it down further, you could pitch some rehydrated dry champagne yeast into the mix. Again, imo I think the saison yeast has run its course. Or you could just get it in your pipeline and enjoy it!

Welcome to the maddening world of 3724. The only reason that I continue to use this PITA yeast is that there is a bit of a flavor difference between 3711 and 3724 - the question becomes whether there is enough of a difference to warrant going through the aggravation with 3724 and more and more of us are saying "no".

I always use the same protocol when fermenting 3724 (slowrise with Fermwrap to 90' and hold at roughly 90' +1/-1' for the duration) and sometimes I am done in 4 weeks, other times (the present) I take a gravity reading at 4 weeks and I am hovering around 1.030. Same recipe, same fermentation protocol, just strange unpredictable yeast.

The only way that I am able to brew with this yeast and keep what little of my sanity remains is to set it up out of the way and just expect that it is going to take at least 2 months. I shake the carboy once a week to make certain that the yeast is in suspension but other than that I just keep it warm and ignore it.

Unfortunately the end product/result is so good with this yeast that it keeps me returning for continual punishment. However, as I mentioned, 3711 is just about as good taste wise and so much easier to use so I am using that on a more regular basis.

I think we to remember that most farmhouse saisons that were brewed in Belgium and related areas originally were brewed as seasonal ales, low gravity, and were made for drinkability, not necessarily a quick turnaround or mid-level alcohol content. I think the dupont strain pretty much tells us that. I brewed a saison last month with it and a couple of wild yeast add-ons and I'm not even taking a gravity reading until probably month 3. It's important that we are cognizant of the way these ales were brewed originally that way we arent expecting the usual 3-4 week fermentation to be universal. Even if the yeast strain itself performs this way on occasion. Just a thought. It might be frustrating but as Montana stated, it's deliciously worth the frustration.

Montanaandy said:

Welcome to the maddening world of 3724. The only reason that I continue to use this PITA yeast is that there is a bit of a flavor difference between 3711 and 3724 - the question becomes whether there is enough of a difference to warrant going through the aggravation with 3724 and more and more of us are saying "no".

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I have to disagree regarding "enough of a difference". Having made identical back to back Saison's this past Spring, I find a huge difference in flavor. One that merits the patience required to nurse 3724 to full attenuation. Now taste is of course a personal thing, however every side by side tasting I conducted with friends and family ended in the same result. Everyone preferred the 3724.

I won't be using 3711 again, and I'll be planning 3724 brews taking the ferment time of 6-8 weeks into account as I plan.

griffonage said:

I have to disagree regarding "enough of a difference". Having made identical back to back Saison's this past Spring, I find a huge difference in flavor. One that merits the patience required to nurse 3724 to full attenuation. Now taste is of course a personal thing, however every side by side tasting I conducted with friends and family ended in the same result. Everyone preferred the 3724.

I won't be using 3711 again, and I'll be planning 3724 brews taking the ferment time of 6-8 weeks into account as I plan.

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While there is a difference in the taste profile between Saison produced using 3724 vs. 3711, I believe that most of us who have used both yeasts don't believe that 3711 is that inferior to 3724 in terms of the Saison end product that you end up with. I certainly would never exclude 3711 from my yeast library simply because it has a different flavor profile any more than I would exclude 3724 because it is such a bugger to work with. Each has its strengths and weaknesses but both are great yeasts.

The yeast must have heard us talking. The gravity dropped to 1.008 — in a mere 10 weeks I'm going to rack to a secondary. Any thoughts on conditioning time? It's my first time using this yeast and it's certainly the first time I've let an ale rest on the yeast cake for that long. One more question: Any concerns about racking my next saison on this existing yeast cake?

I checked my gravity last Wednesday and *POOF* it was at 1.005. The last 11 pts too 9 days. The previous 11 pts took 14 days. Very strange yeast. Anyways, I had mine fermenting at 90-95F for a couple weeks and now, well, it tastes kinda wacky. Not sure if it's ferm temp, recipe, or just needs conditioning to mellow the flavors. I'm trying it either Thursday or Friday, which will have given it about 1.5 weeks at 36F. I'm sure it'll get better with time, but I don't know if I just abused the hell out of this yeast. I definitely rushed it. Next time I'll just let it do it's thing for as long as it needs. If it turns out well, I'll post the recipe...

makisupa said:

The yeast must have heard us talking. The gravity dropped to 1.008 — in a mere 10 weeks I'm going to rack to a secondary. Any thoughts on conditioning time? It's my first time using this yeast and it's certainly the first time I've let an ale rest on the yeast cake for that long. One more question: Any concerns about racking my next saison on this existing yeast cake?

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I have less experience with 3724 than with 3711, but I would skip the secondary and bottle, If you expected that gravity. I wouldn't touch them for at least a month- depending on the recipe. My 2+ year old 3724 saisons are still fantastic, but I remember them taking longer to get good than with 3711.

Can you post your recipe? I'll have better advice if you do.

Also, I will be doing a split batch between 3724 and 3711.

I'll try to post regular tastings- My initial thoughts are that 3711 is good and "full"
very young, and ages by getting more citrus and less funk- 3724 is good for long-term beers getting more funky with age.
But it will be great to have a side by side batch


thanks Griphonage for your experience side-by-side

Has anybody else tried this yeast strain for a Duvel clone? When I was doing an experiment, taking some wort from a low flavor pale and doing separate fermentations using a variety of yeast strains, my wife and I both thought that the one with 3724 was eerily close to Duvel's flavor profile. So I made a full batch mostly Pils and Saaz, 9.2% alc, and it hit it very close. Must closer than the profile obtained from the Belgian Strong strain.

Could be the fermentation temp I used (70F, 1.080 to 1.014 in 9 days, secondary for 9 days, FG 1.010), or the short time in the fermenter. If you let the glass get warm, it tastes more like a Saison, but it was a fun experiment anyway. Very little funk, as Jboggeye said, likely from being very young still.

Wondering if anyone had tried this.

Never tried Duvel strain, but the difference between a Duvel and a Saison are minimal when you bump the gravity up so high. (a true to style saison is way under 1.070, which creates a very different beer.) The fact that you stayed at 70F would, I believe, account for the less fruity and funky flavor, matching Duvel alot more.
If you had fermented it up where it likes to go, things may have been quite different.

I've wanted to try a side by side for these two yeasts as well- next time!

Jboggeye said:

I have less experience with 3724 than with 3711, but I would skip the secondary and bottle, If you expected that gravity. I wouldn't touch them for at least a month- depending on the recipe. My 2+ year old 3724 saisons are still fantastic, but I remember them taking longer to get good than with 3711.

Can you post your recipe? I'll have better advice if you do.

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Thanks. Recipe below. Still interested to know if the yeast cake would be good or not.

9 Gallon Batch (split into two, 4.5-gal batches)
19.5lbs Marris Otter
1lb 4oz Flaked Wheat
12oz Flaked Oats
14.9oz Invert Sugar
1.5oz Challenger (60 min)
1.5oz Tettanger (15 min)
1.5g Ginger Root (7 min)
6g Orange Zest (7 min)
3g Black Pepper (7 min)
1.5g Seeds of Paradise (7 min)

Mashed at 149 for 90 min
Mash-Out at 168
90 min boil
OG: 1.080

makisupa said:

Thanks. Recipe below. Still interested to know if the yeast cake would be good or not.

9 Gallon Batch (split into two, 4.5-gal batches)
19.5lbs Marris Otter
1lb 4oz Flaked Wheat
12oz Flaked Oats
14.9oz Invert Sugar
1.5oz Challenger (60 min)
1.5oz Tettanger (15 min)
1.5g Ginger Root (7 min)
6g Orange Zest (7 min)
3g Black Pepper (7 min)
1.5g Seeds of Paradise (7 min)

Mashed at 149 for 90 min
Mash-Out at 168
90 min boil
OG: 1.080

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I would bottle at this point. I don't think your gravity will drop much from 1.008 with such a high starting gravity. you got 90% attenuation, so you are pretty much done.

As for reusing the yeast, you "could" but it's been pretty stressed out by the high starting gravity. The rule of thumb is not to reuse anything above 1.05-1.06 starting gravity, but I know some that have done higher.
I wouldn't, though. 1.08 is quite high, and the primary was quite long (although necessary with this yeast)
You'll probably be fine, but may not be worth the risk


BTW, looks mighty tasty!

Thank for taking a moment to review Jboggeye. You're correct — it is tasty! The hydro samples have tasted incredible dating all the way back to week three. One thing I did notice, when comparing to the 3711 batch, is that thew orange flavor is much more pronounced when using 3724.

I'm currently bringing the temperature down to ~40. From 87 that will take a few days. Once there, I'm going to rack to a secondary and drop some gelatin through it for a fast clearing. Then it's into a keg and onto some gas for aging.

Also, thanks for the note about the yeast cake. I'm going use a fresh package of 3724 for my next batch (a Saison Vin infused with Zinfindel grape juice); however, I'm going to add a secondary yeast to finish it since a fella simply can't be waiting 10 weeks again

Noooooooooooooo! don't drop that good yeast out!! First of all, carb the carp out of it in nice corked belgian bottles, and set half away for a year. Secondly, keep in cloudy! You spent all that time, a long primary, to get that yeast going good, why would you turn your back on them? Stay loyal to your yeasts!!

haha, I'm just kidding, but I do believe that this yeast is a perfect example of a beer not nearly as good in a keg, and flawless out of a properly conditioned belgian bottle.

makisupa said:

I'm currently bringing the temperature down to ~40. From 87 that will take a few days. Once there, I'm going to rack to a secondary and drop some gelatin through it for a fast clearing. Then it's into a keg and onto some gas for aging.

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FWIW, the Duvel clone I did with this stuff came out surprisingly clear on it's own, if you don't want to have to mess with the gelatin. 9 days primary, 9 days secondary, and 3 weeks in the bottle, 1.080 OG. Even after just a day in the fridge there was very little haze. Surprising for a yeast that's supposed to be low flocc.

Jboggeye said:

Noooooooooooooo! don't drop that good yeast out!! First of all, carb the carp out of it in nice corked belgian bottles, and set half away for a year. Secondly, keep in cloudy! You spent all that time, a long primary, to get that yeast going good, why would you turn your back on them? Stay loyal to your yeasts!!

haha, I'm just kidding, but I do believe that this yeast is a perfect example of a beer not nearly as good in a keg, and flawless out of a properly conditioned belgian bottle.

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What is I met you half-way and primed the keg with corn sugar instead of C02 (without putting gelatin through it)? I'm just not sure if I want to get into bottling this week/next week.

makisupa said:

What is I met you half-way and primed the keg with corn sugar instead of C02 (without putting gelatin through it)? I'm just not sure if I want to get into bottling this week/next week.

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OK, that is acceptable
I don't believe in gelatin for anything other than a lager, but that's just me. yeast adds flavor, and so does bottle conditioning, as far as I'm concerned...

Hi all, anyone feel like the saison yeasts out there are less funky than they used to be? MY recent saisons are good, but not as funky as my older ones?
Is it just me and my taste buds? Am I a victim of funk threashold shift? (like lulupin threashold shift)

Have you perhaps been pitching more yeast than you used to?

not per Jamil's calc. if this last batch doesn't cut it, I'll underpitch a little. I've been concentrating on temp differences- this time I pitched at 65 and added a brew belt after 12 hours to get it to 85 degrees. I've also eliminated all caramel malts (I used to have a touch of caramunich), and mashed lower.

Hi all. I'm on to my second batch using Wyeast 3724 — the Saison Vin recipe from Sep/Oct 2011 Zymurgy. I read somewhere that a brewpub pitches their 3724 once the wort has chilled to just under 100°. I didn't go that crazy but, yesterday, I pitched at 79°-80°. Due to the high temp, there was very little lag time — 4 hours. I raised the temp to ~82° this morning and plan on ramping up to 90° over the next day or two.

Mine is stuck at 1035 as well... so i have it on a heating pad. Wrapped in a blanket ontop of a running dryer. So hopefully itll give it a ton of warmpth and aggitation it needs to kick it into gear!

This yeast strain is best for those who have bad temperature control. I pitched my yeast at 90 degrees and let it go in my garage. The night time temps get much cooler than the day.

85-90 degrees really makes this yeast work good. I was stuck at 1.20 for a few days with the carboy in the garage...I decided to put a black plastic bag over it to get it form UV light...then I let it sit out in the 100 degree sun.

It dried up nice.

Ugh, I'm starting to hate this strain. I let it go for 4 weeks at 66-68F (I didn't pay a ton of attention to the temp range) and it stopped at about 1.034. Built a temp controller and strapped a heating pad on set to 80 for the last 8 days, still at 1.020 today. Moved the pad under the fermenter and set it to 85, hoping that will finally kick it through to the end. I wasn't planning on having this fermenter tied up for 6 freakin weeks!!!

In the mean time I've got a double IPA and a breakfast stout that are going bananas, 2 days in and they're approaching target FG.

6 weeks and I'm at 1.014. Letting it go one more and then kegging.

UGGHH! I'm done screwing with this bug! Its been 3 weeks and its stuck in mid 30's. I don't have a way of heating it up and holding the higher temp. If it hasn't budged by tomorrow, I'm pitching champagne and being done with it.

If I ever use this yeast again it will be in the dead of summer when I can toss it in garage and not worry about it.

Silentbob said:

UGGHH! I'm done screwing with this bug! Its been 3 weeks and its stuck in mid 30's. I don't have a way of heating it up and holding the higher temp. If it hasn't budged by tomorrow, I'm pitching champagne and being done with it.

If I ever use this yeast again it will be in the dead of summer when I can toss it in garage and not worry about it.

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I ended up leaving my carboy in the garage in mid-October. It was in the mid-90s for me. Worked great, but I hear ya. Next time I do a saison, I'll likely use 3711 or some other strain.

I'm using this strain right now, fermenting at about 72F. Same results as everyone else: I didn't get any bubbling in the airlock, but krausen was good initially and disappeared after about 48 hrs. At day 6 I syphoned it to a carboy for secondary and the gravity was reading about 1.036.

I added a pound of honey, boiled and diluted, into the secondary prior to syphoning the beer in. It's been going nuts for about 48 hours - much more vigorous than the primary. I had to change out my airlock because it filled up with beer. It also bubbled out of the top of the airlock, down the side of the carboy, and all over the floor.

This is my first time using honey. I knew yeast liked it, but I didn't expect to need a blowoff hose for the secondary. We'll see what (if anything) it does for the gravity in a few weeks. If it sticks again I can always move it into the hot garage...

Got mine down to 1.025 after a week of 90. Never again lol 3711

I just started a batch using 3724 this past weekend. The plan was to ferment out in my tool shed. I figured that with summer temps in GA it would be the perfect place. Unfortunately, we seem to be having a "cold" snap with highs in the low 80's so the shed is about the same temp as my house.

What I decided to do was strap a heating pad to the carboy and put a cardboard box over the whole thing to keep the heat in. This way I'm able to keep the temp about 85. It's still bubbling pretty well after 4 days so time will tell. Best I can do is keep the heat on. Hopefully the weather will heat up and I can move it to a hotter environment to help out. I'm in no real hurry though, since I have another carboy to do other brews.

I didn't add the champagne yeast... The creepy wine maker at the local shop talked me out of it. I ended up wrapping my fermenter in a thick blanket and sitting it on a heating pad. It's bubbling a bit more vigorously. It taste amazing! I can't wait for this to finish.

The brass tax is... I was looking to add a nice saison into my pipeline and really thought I was looking at maybe a 1 month turn around. It's my own damn fault that I didn't thoroughly research the yeast before I jumped in. My gear is actually better set up to ferment cold than hot... As always, I've learned more from a mistake than I would have had I nailed it.

If you use this yeast... Be prepared to fight for fermentation. Great flavor, but damn! Something more reliable would be preferable (reliable isn't the best word, but it's the first word that comes to mind).

a lot of us here like to ferment with this yeast for a few days, (I like to start it low, and let it go to 75+ degrees on it's own), then pith an active 3711 (the French saison yeast)

all of the flavor of 3724 comes through, and you get great attenuation much quicker, along with a slightly more complex profile.

Also, make sure you have enough minerals in the water- this yeast tastes a little better with a decent amount of salts, and it will thank you for the extra calcium.
That's what I recommend to people using this yeast. it keeps the higher alcohols down- even though this yeast can handle the higher temps, it's better, IMHO, to keep it a little lower than 80+

Anyone ever just rack to secondary with this strain? I'm 3 weeks into mine with a gravity of 1.018. It's been in my garage with temps between 80-90 degrees. Just thought it might be wise to get it off the cake soon and let it finish up in it's own time. If i do this, should i bring it back inside and keep the temp in the 70's till it finishes?