WLP644 -Brett B Trois

sweetcell said:

you emailed who, about what?

if you emailed white labs, asking them to confirm cell counts, you might not get a response. historically they haven't been particularly forthcoming about the cell counts of their bugs.

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I had emailed white labs about the cell count or advice on a starter as a sole pitch into 1.050-1.055 wort. not co-pitching with another strain.
That's pretty lame if they won't give out that information, how can I make the best beer possible without pitching properly? easy, use another company!

thankfully there is this awesome forum to turn to. :rockin:

White Labs Response

If it was packaged before Mar. 20th then it is 500 million per ml. If more recent (once it was discovered to be a sacch strain) then it is 2.5 billion per ml.

Thanks!

nice!

so how many ml are in a vial/purepitch pouch?

sweetcell said:

nice!

so how many ml are in a vial/purepitch pouch?

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my 644 vial states 35ml and I also have a pure pitch pouch of another strain, which reads 40 ml.

hopbrad said:

White Labs Response

If it was packaged before Mar. 20th then it is 500 million per ml. If more recent (once it was discovered to be a sacch strain) then it is 2.5 billion per ml.

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So the experts at White Labs didn't discover it was a sacc strain until March ..... I've known for a couple of years.

I understand what they have done; the small dosage is about right for adding Brett as secondary fermentation, but the larger dosage is for straight pitch as a primary to low OG worts. But to take 18 months to make the change after it has been confirmed to be sacc!!!!!

Hi everyone,
Is WLP644 able to metabolize dextrines or lactose ? As it is a sacc strain, it should not. Am I right ?

WLP644 makes some pretty tasty cider, very fruity. Make some holiday cider with some cinnamon and quite a bit more sugar than WLP644 can handle, make a tasty dessert cider after I aged it a few months to get rid of the booziness.

joglelyonnais said:

Hi everyone,
Is WLP644 able to metabolize dextrines or lactose ? As it is a sacc strain, it should not. Am I right ?

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based on the fact that some folks have trouble getting good attenuation outta 644, i feel pretty comfy saying that it doesn't ferment dextrines.

This yeast doesn't produce acid, how can it be sour then?

Alain2 said:

This yeast doesn't produce acid, how can it be sour then?

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Infection? Cross-contamination?

Alain2 said:

This yeast doesn't produce acid, how can it be sour then?

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Its not.....
Unless you've done something wrong.
It's just perception based o nwhat people say IMO.

This yeast creates greaty fruity esters, pineapple etc. which is most likely where it comes from.....

crusader1612 said:

Its not.....
Unless you've done something wrong.
It's just perception based o nwhat people say IMO.

This yeast creates greaty fruity esters, pineapple etc. which is most likely where it comes from.....

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So many people call Brett beer Sour beer...

Alain2 said:

So many people call Brett beer Sour beer...

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once they get more experienced they will understnad a bit more.
I remember my first "sour beer" - a belgian red, with WLP650, and i left it for like 3 months before understnading and realising it was wrong. so in went a bunch of dregs..... 2 years later an a bronze medal later i now understand the difference - lol.

so, have we figured out what the magic formula is with this yeast?

done right, 644 will dry out a beer and throw amazing fruity esters.

done incorrectly, the yeast finishes high with little aroma contributions.

what's the difference between these two outcomes? pitch rate? oxygenation? fermentation temps? phase of the moon???

being a glutton for punishment, on monday i'm going to try brewing with this yeast again (Imperial's Citrus). my last experience with 644 wasn't amazing, beer finished higher than expected (but not horrible) and not a whole lot of fruit in the nose. i'd like this beer to be amazing

I don't know. I'm not convinced it produces much. Then again, I can't get Conan strains to produce much peach either

Alain2 said:

So many people call Brett beer Sour beer...

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Some brett strains can throw off some acid. My WLP648 beer tstes like tangy pears.

But WLP644 is not a brett strain and isn't sour at all.

For the fruity esters vs little taste I really got lot more fruit the second time I made this beer and have not the slightest clue why. Well even if it does finish bland sometimes that's not a bad thing, it's far and away the best yest strain for making beer that doesn't taste overpoweringly Belgian when used in summer without temp control so I'll be using it all summer every summer.

sweetcell said:

so, have we figured out what the magic formula is with this yeast?

done right, 644 will dry out a beer and throw amazing fruity esters.

done incorrectly, the yeast finishes high with little aroma contributions.

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similar experience here. first batch I brewed (back when we all thought it was a brett strain) came out with massive fruit juice notes, hops forward, dropped crisp and clean after a few months, and slowly developed some extremely pleasant "funk" notes. I've since brewed with it 3 or 4 times, using similar recipe, pitch, temp range, etc... and, while these batches turned out to be good pale ales with some eventual funk, the fruit bomb was not there. anyway, giving it another go this coming week. we'll see.

sweetcell said:

being a glutton for punishment, on monday i'm going to try brewing with this yeast again (Imperial's Citrus). my last experience with 644 wasn't amazing, beer finished higher than expected (but not horrible) and not a whole lot of fruit in the nose. i'd like this beer to be amazing

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update: after a week, the Citrus beer is at 1.013. the other half of the batch with US-05 is at 1.009. i've dry-hopped the 05 half, i'll let the Citrus half go a while longer (maybe a week?) in hopes of chewing off a few more points.

for the Citrus half, i pitched at 72*F and after 36 hours i turned on the heat and got it up to 79*F, where it remained. fermentation kicked off much faster than the US-05 half (8 hours vs. 24-32) and ended sooner too (4 days vs. 6).

for the Citrus/644 starter, i added a drop of hop extract to ensure that there were some IBUs in there. the beer was going to be high gravity, high IBU (over 100 calculated) and with a ton of late hops, so i didn't want to shock the yeast by going from a zero IBU starter into a very high IBU wort. between that, pitching slightly more than recommended by mrmalty and the heat, i'm pleased - so far. but it all don't mean a thing until i taste the final product. gravity sample tasted nice but had a lot of yeast bite so hard to judge.

This is a HUGE thread and not sure where to begin to look regarding fermentation in ambient temps of 60-64, but was hoping I could get a little feedback/guidance from the experienced folks on here

If I pitch yeast around the mid 60s with wlp644 (3 gal glass fermenter), what kinds of results do you suspect I could see from the yeast driven characteristics, flavors, attenuation, and so on?

Thank you for the help!

armenianbrewer said:

This is a HUGE thread and not sure where to begin to look regarding fermentation in ambient temps of 60-64, but was hoping I could get a little feedback/guidance from the experienced folks on here

If I pitch yeast around the mid 60s with wlp644 (3 gal glass fermenter), what kinds of results do you suspect I could see from the yeast driven characteristics, flavors, attenuation, and so on?

Thank you for the help!

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i think that you might have issues with temps in the low to mid 60's. white labs lists the range as 70-85, imperial lists it as 67-80.

if you stay under 65 i would expect muted yeast characteristics (i.e. a clean beer, little to no fruitiness), slightly higher FG, and a longer time needed to complete fermentation.

if you need to ferment at those temps, i would suggest making a big starter, bigger than recommended (like 10-20% more cells).

do you have any way of heating the beer? FermWrap, electric blanket, space heater, seedling mat, etc? just found this small cheap one, not sure what shipping is like... you can use something like a cheap light timer to set it to 50% if it's heating too much. not a perfect solution, a true controller would be better, but this would allow you to get the beer into the correct ballpark.

sweetcell said:

i think that you might have issues with temps in the low to mid 60's. white labs lists the range as 70-85, imperial lists it as 67-80.

if you stay under 65 i would expect muted yeast characteristics (i.e. a clean beer, little to no fruitiness), slightly higher FG, and a longer time needed to complete fermentation.

if you need to ferment at those temps, i would suggest making a big starter, bigger than recommended (like 10-20% more cells).

do you have any way of heating the beer? FermWrap, electric blanket, space heater, seedling mat, etc? just found this small cheap one, not sure what shipping is like... you can use something like a cheap light timer to set it to 50% if it's heating too much. not a perfect solution, a true controller would be better, but this would allow you to get the beer into the correct ballpark.

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So I went with your opinion and did the ferm wrap method and set the controller to 72 degrees. I brewed it up Friday, pitched the yeast starter Saturday Morning and it's been holding steady at 72 +/- 1-2 degrees ever since then. By Saturday night it was SUPER active with a huge krausen and sunday it was still fermenting strong, by monday it certainly seemed have slowed down some but was still going.. How long should I keep it holding at the above 70 degree temps? I didn't check on it this morning as I was in a rush, but should I be holding it at 70+ for the entire fermentation or do you think it's okay to let it complete at basement room temps of 62ish and turn off the ferm wrap heater?

Also I didnt go with the active-ferm dry hop with this batch, going to just dry hop 4-5 days before cold crashing (maybe fining with gelatin), and then kegging

armenianbrewer said:

How long should I keep it holding at the above 70 degree temps? I didn't check on it this morning as I was in a rush, but should I be holding it at 70+ for the entire fermentation or do you think it's okay to let it complete at basement room temps of 62ish and turn off the ferm wrap heater?

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you should keep it at 70+ for the duration of fermentation. if you crash the temps down to 62, there is a good chance the yeast will go dormant and flocculate.

if you are seeing signs of it slowing down, you might want to crank up the heat a few more degrees. this should help the yeast finish up.

before turning off the heat, take a gravity sample. depending on the fermentation, 644 can keep going slowly for quite some time. my last 644 beer appeared to be done after 4 or 5 days, but gravity was at 1.013. i kept the heat on it for another week and a half and it fell to 1.010. might have kept on going but i ran out of patience.

sweetcell said:

you should keep it at 70+ for the duration of fermentation. if you crash the temps down to 62, there is a good chance the yeast will go dormant and flocculate.

if you are seeing signs of it slowing down, you might want to crank up the heat a few more degrees. this should help the yeast finish up.

before turning off the heat, take a gravity sample. depending on the fermentation, 644 can keep going slowly for quite some time. my last 644 beer appeared to be done after 4 or 5 days, but gravity was at 1.013. i kept the heat on it for another week and a half and it fell to 1.010. might have kept on going but i ran out of patience.

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Awesome, thank you for the input! It's much appreciated and I'll keep to having the heat on, and like you said maybe even bump it up another degree or two... starting to feel like I need more temperature controllers haha!

I'm on my 2nd step up of a starter with 644. Planning to brew a NEstyle IPA this upcoming week splitting the batch with Conan, with wlp644 and then 1 carboy with a blend of the 2. I Will update the differences. Their ferm temps are quite different unfortunately and will be favoring Conan with temps in the mid 60's since I ferment in a room set with a small AC unit. I can bring it up to the 70s after 3-4 days once I don't have to worry about the Belgian flavors from Conan coming out. Although I guess I won't get a super expressive flavor from the 644.

I do have he option to pitch the 644 at 85. My ground water only gets the wort to that temp and I let the ferm chamber do the rest and usually pitch 6-12 hours later depending on the strain.
But that might stall the yeast going in at 85 and dropping to an ambient of low-mid 60s

sweetcell said:

update: after a week, the Citrus beer is at 1.013. the other half of the batch with US-05 is at 1.009. i've dry-hopped the 05 half, i'll let the Citrus half go a while longer (maybe a week?) in hopes of chewing off a few more points.



for the Citrus half, i pitched at 72*F and after 36 hours i turned on the heat and got it up to 79*F, where it remained. fermentation kicked off much faster than the US-05 half (8 hours vs. 24-32) and ended sooner too (4 days vs. 6).



for the Citrus/644 starter, i added a drop of hop extract to ensure that there were some IBUs in there. the beer was going to be high gravity, high IBU (over 100 calculated) and with a ton of late hops, so i didn't want to shock the yeast by going from a zero IBU starter into a very high IBU wort. between that, pitching slightly more than recommended by mrmalty and the heat, i'm pleased - so far. but it all don't mean a thing until i taste the final product. gravity sample tasted nice but had a lot of yeast bite so hard to judge.

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How'd this turn out?

Sorry for taking the thread in a direction thats probably been covered some where along the way to 107 pages, but I don't have the time or patience to read every single one. I've read that WLP644 is not considered a true Brett strain so Should I not worry about infecting my gear if I use it?

jdonley said:

Sorry for taking the thread in a direction thats probably been covered some where along the way to 107 pages, but I don't have the time or patience to read every single one. I've read that WLP644 is not considered a true Brett strain so Should I not worry about infecting my gear if I use it?

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The answer is supposedly "no, it will not infect your equipment." Hasn't infected mine

hopbrad said:

I'm on my 2nd step up of a starter with 644. Planning to brew a NEstyle IPA this upcoming week splitting the batch with Conan, with wlp644 and then 1 carboy with a blend of the 2. I Will update the differences. Their ferm temps are quite different unfortunately and will be favoring Conan with temps in the mid 60's since I ferment in a room set with a small AC unit. I can bring it up to the 70s after 3-4 days once I don't have to worry about the Belgian flavors from Conan coming out. Although I guess I won't get a super expressive flavor from the 644.

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I dry hopped 1 carboy of the 644 today about 2.5 days after pitching. 2 oz of citra. the 644 had some big yeast floaters and funny fermentation compared to the others but already seemed to be slowing down. the conan was going strong so i'll probably dry hop the conan tomorrow or the following day with the same.
I pulled the carboys of 644 out of the cold room into 80F ambient for about 2-3 hours to warm up. raised the cold room to 68F and will raise to 74 in a day or 2. so im hoping the 644 stays in the 70s while fermentation is going but also keeps the conan at bay for the next day.
Conan had the typical strong sulfur c02 punch when i took a whiff. 644 had kinda a yeasty not much going on aroma, a little mango but i had to really stretch and look for it.
recipe was 10% oats, 10% wheat, 40% pils 40% pale
lots of simcoe and citra and some apollo

hopbrad said:

I dry hopped 1 carboy of the 644 today about 2.5 days after pitching. 2 oz of citra.

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please let us know how this turns out, and if you perceive any affects of biotransformation.

in my limited experience with 644, i would be concerned that this yeast is a slow one to finish up (my two batches needed 3-4 weeks to finish up). i wouldn't want my beer sitting on the hops for that long. but i haven't tried it either, so maybe the concern about leaving dry-hops in for a long time is nothing but internet lore...

hence, the desire to learn how yours turns out

sweetcell said:

please let us know how this turns out, and if you perceive any affects of biotransformation.

in my limited experience with 644, i would be concerned that this yeast is a slow one to finish up (my two batches needed 3-4 weeks to finish up). i wouldn't want my beer sitting on the hops for that long. but i haven't tried it either, so maybe the concern about leaving dry-hops in for a long time is nothing but internet lore...

hence, the desire to learn how yours turns out

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Yeah, I like this yeast but it can be slow and it floccs badly. Am thinking of using it for primary fermentation and then dropping in some Belle Saison a few days aftewards just to make sure that it attenuates properly. Both should be fine at room temperature in the summer so no worries with temp control.

Bosh said:

Yeah, I like this yeast but it can be slow and it floccs badly. Am thinking of using it for primary fermentation and then dropping in some Belle Saison a few days aftewards just to make sure that it attenuates properly. Both should be fine at room temperature in the summer so no worries with temp control.

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I've seen people talking about mixed fermentation, but I've never tried it myself. From what I understand Belle Saison is a pretty strong yeast. Wouldn't the esters of that beat out the wlp644? Or since you're pitching a few days later the ester production would be almost finished? What other benefits do using two yeast is there? When I think of 644 I think juicy ipa/apa so I'm interested in your feedback. Thanks!

the long dry hop didnt seem to give any ill effects. I kegged after 12 days after pitching so it wasnt in crazy long but still about 10 days. the 2nd dry hop was in for 4 days.

its been kegged for about a week now and it is nice. very tropical. I used alot of citra tho. this was a split batch with conan and I have that keg sitting in the fermentation room. ill give that a try soon and will give a full comparison update

sweetcell said:

please let us know how this turns out, and if you perceive any affects of biotransformation.

in my limited experience with 644, i would be concerned that this yeast is a slow one to finish up (my two batches needed 3-4 weeks to finish up). i wouldn't want my beer sitting on the hops for that long. but i haven't tried it either, so maybe the concern about leaving dry-hops in for a long time is nothing but internet lore...

hence, the desire to learn how yours turns out

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I also dropped in the hops on the Conan carboy the following day. They both seem about done now....but still some slight activity. I also warmed the ferm chamber to 74 to finish it out.
644 tastes more bright and tropical. The conan a bit more of the stone fruitiness. (i lost track but this is about generation 6 or 7 conan).
I prefer the 644 so far. still a long ways to go before the finished product. Will update...

Calaeb said:

I've seen people talking about mixed fermentation, but I've never tried it myself. From what I understand Belle Saison is a pretty strong yeast. Wouldn't the esters of that beat out the wlp644? Or since you're pitching a few days later the ester production would be almost finished? What other benefits do using two yeast is there? When I think of 644 I think juicy ipa/apa so I'm interested in your feedback. Thanks!

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Belle Saison is fairly restrained by saison standards but very flavorful by any other standards. However if you add it after the other beer is done it shouldn't contribute much flavor. The main reason to add Belle Saison would be to dry the beer out as WLP644 can finish a bit high. Belle Saison will ferment most worts down to at least 1.000 if you keep it nice and warm.

Basically what I'd do is let the WLP644 finish then take a gravity sample. If it's higher than you want and you want it dry as a bone then put in a pack of Belle Saison and problem solved.

Bosh said:

Belle Saison is fairly restrained by saison standards but very flavorful by any other standards. However if you add it after the other beer is done it shouldn't contribute much flavor.

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while this is usually the case, belle saison has bucked this tendency for me. twice when i've used it to dry out a beer, it has contribute some noticeable but not overwhelming yeast character. turned a sweet double IPA into a monster 12% belgian triple IPA

sweetcell said:

while this is usually the case, belle saison has bucked this tendency for me. twice when i've used it to dry out a beer, it has contribute some noticeable but not overwhelming yeast character. turned a sweet double IPA into a monster 12% belgian triple IPA

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I wouldn't be surprised in a really strong beer with enough gravity points for the Belle Saison to gnaw on like with a sweeter double IPA. But I doubt it'd have as much to gnaw on with a lower OG beer.

But yeah, sweetcell is right, if the FG is a long way from 1.000 (which Belle Saison often ferments out to) you're going to get some flavor.

Though I have little experience with WLP644, I can confirm that it will still work at lower range ferm temps. I have a mixed-fermentation Belgian golden strong with Abbey yeast (WLP530) and WLP644. In all honesty, I bought 644 thinking it was Brett. White Labs was in the transition of changing the name on the labeling for this to actually saying "Saccharomyces", and not flat out just saying it's Brett Brux. Go figure White Labs does genetic testing on this strain and it takes years to change the name for consumers. It sure acts like Brett though.

A little background, the beer (5.5 gal) was a base of Pilsen LME and Wheat DME (55% wheat, 45% 2-row), along with a pound each of flaked wheat and flaked oats steeped in the water for the entirety of the time it was heating to a boil for the extract. My thinking was that the grains undergo each mash step briefly in the steep. These additions were only for the added proteins, body, and complex starches for the "Brett" to munch on over a long fermentation. Because I brew on a 2-tier burner outdoors with a 16 gal kettle, I just used a smaller 5 gal pot for this and topped it up with some of the mash wort I was making in the big kettle (a white wheat IPA). No hops were in this added wort.

I cooled and transferred to a 6 gal plastic carboy (to replicate the micro-oxygenation / O2 permeability of a barrel), and pitched a 1L starter of the Abbey, and a 1.5L of the 644, along with a 1L of Lacto Brevis WLP677 added at 4 days. My thoughts were to let the yeast establish themselves but this may have backfired on me. 0.5 oz French oak cubes were also added with the pitch (to replicate a barrel and for the bugs to have a cool pad to chill in). Being midsummer July when I brewed this I pitched at 75F and it fermented strong at 72F for about a week and began to die down.

At 3 months I tasted it and the Lacto hadn't taken hold much if at all. Go figure, the OG was 1.074 and probably fermented 6%+ before I pitched the Lacto. The beer had notes of a very mild Belgian saison with hints of apple, honey, very mild funk, ripe cherry skin with a mild sweetness (SG 1.012). No boozyness at all.

I believe that sour/funky beers benefit from seasonal temp fluctuations and do little to insulate my beer during the fall/winter. By fall the beer's temp was steady around 68 and the SG was 1.008 when checked in October. Afterwards the temp slowly dropped to ~62F in the winter and yet when I pulled a sample in January the SG was 1.004 (9.2%) and seemed to still be going!

That said, I'm quite positive that the 644 is the only active microbe in the beer, the Abbey would have given out months ago. The beer has gotten a bit more funky and estery too. I too was concerned about the temp range of this yeast but no longer. It still produces a great flavor and is active at low 60's.

Being 8 months in, I just added another 0.5 oz of French oak cubes, 12 oz of red wine (Chronic Cellars - Suite Petite Syrah 2014 @ 14.5%ABV), and 3 oz frozen, dried rose hips. Looking to drop the acidity and add a slight tartness to the beer. The 644 and Lacto produced very little acidity (barely perceivable).

After the additions, 644 fired up almost immediately and still has a 1/2 inch krausen on top after 2 weeks. Didn't think there was that much sugar in rose hips or a dry red wine, but the 644 found something to nosh on! The now 9.4% beer doesn't seem to bother the 644, showing it has great alcohol tolerance.

In the end, I'm bummed that this didn't turn out to be a "true" Brett strain but it's making a hell of a good beer! Cheers!

after a few weeks, I think I would prefer the wlp644 in a bigger IPA. the Conan batch slightly edges it due to its juiciness.
My only complaint is the mouthfeel on the 644, thin and less juicy, and I used both oats, wheat and higher chloride...i guess a hydrometer reading would of confirmed this...oops.
i love the aroma and brightness. I think my OG was somewhere in the 1.058 range but cant remember. I plan to do more of an Imperial IPA in the 1.070 range next.

hopbrad said:

the long dry hop didnt seem to give any ill effects. I kegged after 12 days after pitching so it wasnt in crazy long but still about 10 days. the 2nd dry hop was in for 4 days.

its been kegged for about a week now and it is nice. very tropical. I used alot of citra tho. this was a split batch with conan and I have that keg sitting in the fermentation room. ill give that a try soon and will give a full comparison update





I also dropped in the hops on the Conan carboy the following day. They both seem about done now....but still some slight activity. I also warmed the ferm chamber to 74 to finish it out.
644 tastes more bright and tropical. The conan a bit more of the stone fruitiness. (i lost track but this is about generation 6 or 7 conan).
I prefer the 644 so far. still a long ways to go before the finished product. Will update...

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Man, this yeast smells great while it ferments. I'm using the Imperial Organics version on a citra/mosaic pale ale (OG 1.051) that I plan to secondary on top of mangoes and habaneros. I did an IPA earlier in the year with their "dry hop" (644 x Conan), and it was similarly fruity while fermenting. Turned out great.

Grrrr, WLP644 is sold out in Korea right when I wanted to use it. Would either WLP 650 or WLP 653 come close if used as the only yeast? I know they're actual brett yeast while WLP644 isn't but just looking for ballpark. I guess I could culture up something from some of my remained bottles of WLP 644/648 blend but the 648's tart funk really overpowered the 644.