Lyles Golden Syrup - Add Flavor or Not?

I've heard so many contradictory statements I'm really left wondering if this stuff just increases gravity without adding flavor or does it add gravity but also impart a unique flavor. If it doesn't add flavor, why on earth would you pay $9.00 for something that cane sugar could do for almost free?

I'm not sure.

I used it in a Belgian dark strong that i brewed back in october that is starting to get pretty delicious now. But there was also some orange peel, coriander and candy sugar and a lot of specialty malts, so i don't know how much the lyle's actually contributed. So I can't really help out there.

What are you planning on brewing?

jjp36 said:

I'm not sure.

I used it in a Belgian dark strong that i brewed back in october that is starting to get pretty delicious now. But there was also some orange peel, coriander and candy sugar and a lot of specialty malts, so i don't know how much the lyle's actually contributed. So I can't really help out there.

What are you planning on brewing?

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I want to brew a English Special Bitter and I'd like to try Lyles's but I'm not gonna waste the money if it doesn't impart flavor..

I used it in a cider, nothing but apple juice and Lyles. I got nothin out of it...and if it doesn't come through in a cider, I highly doubt it will come through in a bitter.

If you looking for something with a little flavor contribution, you could try adding honey at flame out.

Otherwise i'd just go with table or corn sugar.

I use it in my bitter recipe all the time (recipe in drop-down). I have read that it doesn't impart flavor, but I think it's recipe and yeast dependent. I swear I can taste it (subtle, but pleasant) in my recipe as written. But I brewed that same recipe with S-04 and I couldn't taste it at all (the change of yeast TOTALLY changed the flavor profile of the beer). That seems counter-intuitive because one would think WLP-023 would have a more pronounced character than S-04, so who knows... I'm only going by what I taste.

Go to the UK to get it. It's 60p there (less than $1.00).

jjp36 said:

If you looking for something with a little flavor contribution, you could try adding honey at flame out.

Otherwise i'd just go with table or corn sugar.

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I would think adding Lyle's at flameout would add flavor as well. It's boiling it that would kill the flavor.

Um. Lyle's Golden Syrup is nothing more than a blend of liquid invert sugar - glucose and fructose - and the sucrose syrup from which the invert sugar is obtained. It is thus practically 100% fermentable, leaving no possibility for flavor impartation. Sugar flavor comes from impurities - from Demerara sugar to blackstrap molasses, the darker the product, the more impurities, and the more intense the flavor. Lyle's has no impurities to speak of.

I don't know what you guys are tasting, but it ain't Lyle's.

Cheers,

Bob

Bob, do you have any thoughts about Lyle's Black Treacle - would that be any better for brewing?

Not to speak for Bob, but I do not think it is a matter of being better or worse for brewing. I think it is a matter of picking the right ingredient for what you want to impart in the brew.

McGarnigle said:

It's boiling it that would kill the flavor.

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.....what?

Ryan, you spoke for me exceedingly well.

Treacle is a mix of molasses and invert sugar syrup (like Lyle's), generally speaking. It's appropriate in dark beers like Porter, though you can use it to great effect in lighter beers as a source of slight color and flavor. I have a Ordinary Bitter recipe around here somewhere that calls for treacle, and I recall it was pretty good.

Tonedef, I think McGarnigle was referring to the principle to which most meadmakers adhere, that boiling drives off delicate honey aromatics to the detriment of flavor.

But there Igo, speaking for someone else.

Bob

NQ3X said:

Tonedef, I think McGarnigle was referring to the principle to which most meadmakers adhere, that boiling drives off delicate honey aromatics to the detriment of flavor.

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Okay, but that still doesn't make any sense. We aren't dealing with honey here, we are talking about what is essentially pre-cooked sugar. That is like saying that boiling maple syrup will drive off all the maple flavor...there is no sense in that at all.

True. And since I'm of the certainty that Golden Syrup doesn't have any flavors or aromas, the point is moot.

There is, however, a long and acrimonious debate amongst meadmakers about boiling honey.

Bob

NQ3X said:

There is, however, a long and acrimonious debate amongst meadmakers about boiling honey.

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Of this I am aware, and I think heating your honey is a big mistake. But people should be aware that honey is a delicate sugar and precooked sugars do not have the same properties and do not need to be handled so gently.

NQ3X said:

It is thus practically 100% fermentable, leaving no possibility for flavor impartation. Sugar flavor comes from impurities - from Demerara sugar to blackstrap molasses, the darker the product, the more impurities, and the more intense the flavor. Lyle's has no impurities to speak of.

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But golden syrup has a strong toffee flavor and an amber color. It is also ~15% water and, I believe, contains NaCl due to inverting the portion of sucrose with HCl, then neutralizing it with NaOH. Surely, the toffee flavor comes from impurities. I would expect sugars with no potential for flavor contribution would have no taste to speak of either.

menschmaschine said:

But golden syrup has a strong toffee flavor and an amber color. It is also ~15% water and, I believe, contains NaCl due to inverting the portion of sucrose with HCl, then neutralizing it with NaOH. Surely, the toffee flavor comes from impurities. I would expect sugars with no potential for flavor contribution would have no taste to speak of either.

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I've never tasted any flavor from invert sugar. Lyle's is, IIRC, 75% invert and 25% sucrose. I've also never met an invert sugar that was perfectly clear, even 100% invert syrup I used to use in my commercial-brewing endeavors for Tripel. In the bucket, it was amber, just like Lyle's.

Of course it's got water in it. It's syrup. Had it no water, it'd be powder.

And you've got the process of inversion - and the chemicals required - down pat. However, I disagree that those impurities are present in levels detectable by humans. In fact, as the flavor threshold of fructose is higher than sucrose - thus permitting us to use 25% less invert sugar (or Golden Syrup) to reach the same level of perceived sweetness, I can only assume that the NaCl is so trace as to have no impact whatever on flavor.

I cannot speak to impurities, as I have no data other than that which I can find with deep internet searching and my own experience. I don't taste the flavors you report, and can find no evidence for impurities significant enough to reach flavor-threshold levels. Thus, my standpoint on this issue.

Respectfully,

Bob

I've never brewed with Lyle's but I did use it in a pecan pie as a substitute for the corn syrup. It made the pie 1000 times better, imparting a very caramel-like flavor that complimented the pecans.

Brutus Brewer said:

I've never brewed with Lyle's but I did use it in a pecan pie as a substitute for the corn syrup. It made the pie 1000 times better, imparting a very caramel-like flavor that complimented the pecans.

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brilliant!

B

I've used Lyle's in bitters and strong bitters and don't think it added any flavor. I think it's pretty "clean" sugar. What does give a nice flavor is dark sucanat. It's a little expensive for sugar, but nothing compared to buying Lyle's in the states. Dark sucanat has the natural impurities that would be removed to form molasses, I believe. It's a nice flavor. I used 8 oz in a 5 gallon batch at 1.042. Good luck!

Brutus Brewer said:

I've never brewed with Lyle's but I did use it in a pecan pie as a substitute for the corn syrup. It made the pie 1000 times better, imparting a very caramel-like flavor that complimented the pecans.

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IMHO this was not a resulf of the flavor of the Lyle's but a result of not having the off flavor influence of the corn syrup. What you taste is the true taste of a carmelized pecan that has not been adulterated by the corn syrup taste.

For all of those who've never had Lyle's (at all)... it has a very big flavor (raw). It tastes like liquid toffee. It has a stronger flavor than honey IMO.

This doesn't necessarily help the discussion, but I emailed Tate & Lyle and got the following information for LGS. I thought it would be interesting to post:

Total Sugars* 80.0% min
Invert* 47.0 51.3%
Sucrose* 30.0 – 33.0%
Ash 1.3 – 1.5% max
Colour 1,200 – 2,200 IU
SO2 10 mg/kg max
Lead 1 mg/kg max
Arsenic 1 mg/kg max

Solids (refract. uncorr.) 82.5 – 83.0%

pH 5.0 - 6.0
Temperature (bulk) 45 – 55oC


Microbiology

Mesophilic bacteria/g <500
Yeasts/g <100
Moulds/g <100
Salmonellae Not detected in 25g
E. Coli Not detected in 1g
Staph Aureus Not detected in 1g


Nutrition Information:

Energy (Kcal) 325
Energy (KJ) 1,380
Water (g) 16.2 [apparently out of 100g... so same as %]
Protein (g) 0.5
Carbohydrate (g) 80.5
Of which Sugars 80.5
Of which Polyols Nil
Of which Starch Nil
Fat (g) Nil
Fibre (g) Nil
Sodium (mg) 330.0
Vitamins Essentially Nil


Viscosity:

20 c 59,160
40 c 3,900
60 c 840

Density at 20oC 1.44 g/ml

menschmaschine said:

Lead 1 mg/kg max
Arsenic 1 mg/kg max
Vitamins Essentially Nil

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Must be the arsenic that makes it taste so good!

NQ3X...I don't agree with your assessment that Lyle's is flavorless--and all I need is one word. Maillard.

Even though it takes a temperature higher than a wort boil to create a maillard reaction, you still get it in a kettle due to the extreme heat at the bottom of the kettle near the flame.

Anytime you add honey, malt extract, or a syrup, you are going to get this reaction and you WILL get noticeable flavors from it.

What about using Lyles in a cider for backsweetening and suspending prior when racking to kegs using potassium metabisulfite and pottasium sorbate? Do you think any of the flavors from the syrup would offer a sweet toffee flavor to the cider?