Which grains to steep?

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uwmgdman

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From what I've read, or from my understanding of what I've read (Palmer, as well as my LHBS catalog:
http://www.wineandhop.com/CatalogBeer/GrainSteep.shtml) the only grains that should be used for steeping are crystal and roasted malts, all others need to be mashed. I'm an extract/steeping grain brewer and I've been looking at receipies on the Recipator, and many have grains in the steeping list (Munich, Pale, etc. etc) that from my readings should only be mashed.

So what does steeping grains that are to be mashed do to a beer? Is something I should refrain from? Or is it no big deal? Any comments are appreciated.
 
uwmgdman said:
From what I've read, or from my understanding of what I've read (Palmer, as well as my LHBS catalog:
http://www.wineandhop.com/CatalogBeer/GrainSteep.shtml) the only grains that should be used for steeping are crystal and roasted malts, all others need to be mashed. I'm an extract/steeping grain brewer and I've been looking at receipies on the Recipator, and many have grains in the steeping list (Munich, Pale, etc. etc) that from my readings should only be mashed.

So what does steeping grains that are to be mashed do to a beer? Is something I should refrain from? Or is it no big deal? Any comments are appreciated.

The key thing that is missing from Palmer's text is the important message that grains that need to be mashed only need to be mashed to get fermentables out of them. You can steep any grain you want, and it will add flavor/color to your beer no problem.

If you steep a grain that is supposed to be mashed (to get sugar), you will still get the flavor and color out of it, but you won't get an appreciable amount of fermentable sugar. So, if you are using a bunch of extract, you are getting fermentables from THAT, and the grain is negligible with respects to sugar contribution anyway.

You might get some starch in your beer that could make it cloudy (particularly when the beer is chilled), but you won't ruin the beer at all.

-walker
 
Oh no . . . is this going to start that contentious debate aobut whether or not steeping base malts is actually a 'mash'??? ;)

You only need to steep specialty malts - not base malts as they are used for mashing (i.e. getting fermentables).

When I was an extract/specialty grain brewer, I used to do a simulated "mash" with my specialty grains. I realize that I obtained no fermentables out of the process, but I found it fun and a great practice for all-grain brewing. I took a tiny little cooler and built a very tiny little manifold. Instead of steeping those specialty grains, I "mashed" them and batch sparged to obtain my grain "tea" before adding extract.

It was fun . . . if not a bit nerdy, as the effect was no different than steeping those grains.
 
If you are just doing an extract beer with some grani steep what ever you want. You arent really looking for the fermentables because you are getting them fromthe extracts. When you steep them you are basicly just after the color and flavors they give you.

If you are after the fermentables you could do a mini mash or if you're lazy like me just add a bit more extract or honey or something.
 
You can always go the way of mini-mashing. Steep those "mash" grains at 150 degrees for twenty minutes or so before you go to the boil, removing the same prior to boil. Then steep the others after the boil.
 
Steeping grains that are normally mashed can result in high finish gravities, cloudy ales due to dissolved starches. In small quantities, this isn't a problem.
 
Imperial Walker said:
You might get some starch in your beer that could make it cloudy (particularly when the beer is chilled), but you won't ruin the beer at all.

-walker

I see, thanks for the replies guys. I take it this is why, when I see those 'mashing' grains in the steep list, I also see Irish Moss to be added so that cloudyness won't happen?
 
uwmgdman said:
I see, thanks for the replies guys. I take it this is why, when I see those 'mashing' grains in the steep list, I also see Irish Moss to be added so that cloudyness won't happen?
Irish moss is added to any beer you want clear, but it coagulates with proteins, not with starch. If you get a starchy haze in your beer I'm not sure you can get rid of it, but I'm 95% sure Irish moss won't help.
 
uwmgdman said:
I see, thanks for the replies guys. I take it this is why, when I see those 'mashing' grains in the steep list, I also see Irish Moss to be added so that cloudyness won't happen?

Yes, the irish moss helps with the haze, but it's not perfect.

The haze is purely cosmetic (no affect on the flavor), so I don't get bent out of shape about the cloudiness at all.

edit: BeeGee is correct. the moss won't help with starch haze... wasn't thinking at full capacity there... :eek:


-walker
 
Imperial Walker said:
Yes, the irish moss helps with the haze, but it's not perfect.

The haze is purely cosmetic (no affect on the flavor), so I don't get bent out of shape about the cloudiness at all.

edit: BeeGee is correct. the moss won't help with starch haze... wasn't thinking at full capacity there... :eek:

I have steeped oven-toasted 2-row for color/flavor in an IPA with crystal. It gave a beautiful copper color and a nice subtle biscuit flavor that I really like, but that is the cloudiest beer I've ever made. I never made the connection until now, but that's probably why.
 
cweston said:
I have steeped oven-toasted 2-row for color/flavor in an IPA with crystal. It gave a beautiful copper color and a nice subtle biscuit flavor that I really like, but that is the cloudiest beer I've ever made. I never made the connection until now, but that's probably why.
If you steeped it in a mash fashion (I know, this is going to sound unclear) you should be able to convert the starch into sugar. OTOH, the x-factor is perhaps how much you toasted it as my understanding is that this may damage or eliminate the amylases. In that case you'd have to add some untoasted 2-row to convert the whole kit and kaboodle.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
If you steeped it in a mash fashion (I know, this is going to sound unclear) you should be able to convert the starch into sugar. OTOH, the x-factor is perhaps how much you toasted it as my understanding is that this may damage or eliminate the amylases. In that case you'd have to add some untoasted 2-row to convert the whole kit and kaboodle.

Nah--I just toasted it about 10 minutes (it was lightly browned) and then went to a standard extract recipe steep: 20 minutes in 150 F water with the crystal. The OG was a point or 2 above where I extected it to be, so it's possible that I extracted a little sugar from the toasted 2-row, but I doubt it.
 
according to what I have read... if you "just steep" a grain meant for mashing, you get about 40% of the total sugar it has to offer. depending on how much grain you are talking about, it might or might not be negligible.

-walker
 
I imagine with the 20 minute steep you got some conversion and hence a few points, but the conversion was incomplete due to the short steep and you got a bit of starch. Perhaps a longer steep would have converted it all, but I'm basically just armchair brewing.

You know, if you just had some two-row and crystal you could test start a test batch today on your new gear...!
 
My guess is that a 20 minute steep at 150 in a whole pot of liquid would give you conversion, think of some of the rests in decoction schedules. The trick would be sparging, but then again, you would have so little grain in such a great amount of liquid that I would say you are OK. Besides, you are really only after the fresh grain flavors, not gravity point. I also wouldn't worry about the extra points. It isn't going to ruin the brew by any means. I would put it in a grain bag and let it soak for 20-25 minutes, swish it around, remove the grain bag, add your extract and go on from there with your boil and specialty grain steep.
 
The issue was more that cweston wound up with a starch haze in that brew, not so much efficiency related. I've had some full mashes that converted in <30 minutes (soonest I've checked), but I've also had some that took >60 :confused: The vagaries of mashing are beyond me, as long as it makes beer I'm good to go! :drunk:
 
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