First Lager Questions...

Long-time lurker, first-time poster here…

I’ve been brewing for about 3.5 years, all grain for about 2. I figure I’d take another step and try a Lager. I’ve got a 7 ft^3 freezer with a temp controller sitting at 50 degrees for fermentation. But I’ve got a realm of questions about a starter and pitching... I've done some searching and reading, but there are some conflicting answers around these parts...

The Brew-
10 lbs German Pilsner
8oz German Munich
4oz Carafoam
1oz liberty bittering
1oz liberty aroma

Should end up around OG ~ 1.050

1) Starter set-up:
I’ll be using White Labs – German Bock yeast. From what I’ve read, I’ll need about a 3 liter starter with 11-12 oz of DME (probably 2.75 cups, I don’t have a scale), some Fermaint K, and some Servomyces. I'll place this puppy on a home-made stir plate (I hope it has the power to stir 3L)
-How long should I let the starter sit?
-What temperature? Room temp (67) or fermentation temp (50)??

2) The Pitch!
I'll want to 'cold-crash' and pour off as much liquid as possible.
-About what temp do I want for the starter and the wort at the moment of pitch?? Same a fermentation temp? Room Temp?
-You guys have any precautions / reccomendations other than 'use appropriate fire' (flame the mouth of carboy, flame the mouth of flask, pour next to a flame to create updrafts)

Thanks for your knowledge and wisdom...

Typical starter time is 24 hours or so, with a lot of flexibility and I would not be concerned about running it at 50 degrees, 65 will be fine.

There are two trains of thought that I know of concerning pitching temps. One, pitch at fermenting temps. Two, and the one I use, is to pitch at 65 deg. or so and hold until the first signs of fermentation, then slowly drop to your ferm temp.

More will chime in I'm sure, with varying info. Good luck!

For my lagers (and that's just about all I brew, and I use 833 almost all the time now), the starters take a couple of days to ferment out, a bit longer than ales usually. I do mine at room temp, on the stirplate for a day or two (usually two) and then crash cool it in the fridge. It takes longer for lager yeast to fall out than ale yeasts - they don't mind the cold as much. I would suggest you get your wort down to below fermentation temps (45 degrees or so), pull your starter out of the fridge, decant, and pitch. Your starter won't be more than 10 degrees or so below the wort at this point, the slightly warmer wort (even at 45) will help get them going.

My technique:
I always brew on Saturdays. The weekend before, I start my starter on the stirplate - Saturday or Sunday. On Tuesday, I'll turn the plate off at some point in the day and make sure I don't have any offgassing. Then stick it in the fridge until Saturday. On Saturday evening/Sunday morning once the wort is cool, I'll aerate the wort, decant the starter, swirl up the yeast and pitch. If I do a stepped starter, I'll do it 2 weeks in advance. This is probably longer durations than most people use, but the weekends work best for me.

Edit: I've never messed with the flame techniques. I make sure flask and carboy are sanitized of course, but the flame treatment always seemed overkill to me (and a pain).

bamnq6 said:

1) Starter set-up:
I’ll be using White Labs – German Bock yeast. From what I’ve read, I’ll need about a 3 liter starter with 11-12 oz of DME (probably 2.75 cups, I don’t have a scale), some Fermaint K, and some Servomyces. I'll place this puppy on a home-made stir plate (I hope it has the power to stir 3L)
-How long should I let the starter sit?
-What temperature? Room temp (67) or fermentation temp (50)??

2) The Pitch!
I'll want to 'cold-crash' and pour off as much liquid as possible.
-About what temp do I want for the starter and the wort at the moment of pitch?? Same a fermentation temp? Room Temp?
-You guys have any precautions / reccomendations other than 'use appropriate fire' (flame the mouth of carboy, flame the mouth of flask, pour next to a flame to create updrafts)

Thanks for your knowledge and wisdom...

Click to expand...

(1) double-check your starter numbers. Three litres seems a bit on the small side just off the top of my head. You can step your starter up if you are worried about stirring power (chill and decant multiple times). Propagate your yeast at room temperature. You want to pitch about 1.5 million cells per millilitre per degree Plato. Consider using dry yeast (two packages rehydrated) to ensure you get enough cells.

(2) The starter itself can be anywhere from just above freezing to your wort temp +10 degrees when you pitch it. I normally try to have it anywhere between 33 degrees and wort temp. Pitching cold yeast into warm wort is fine, but you don't want to do the opposite.

(3) You didn't ask for recipe advice but I'd probably be putting a pound of Carapils in that, maybe a few other light to medium crystal malts for complexity.

Good luck!

osagedr said:

(3) You didn't ask for recipe advice but I'd probably be putting a pound of Carapils in that, maybe a few other light to medium crystal malts for complexity.

Click to expand...

NOOOOO!
I'm poking fun at you osagedr, but depending on what he's trying to make, I'd leave it alone.
I did a helles at the first of January that is almost identical to his recipe, but I left out the carafoam. 10 lbs pils, 8 oz Munich and that's it. Perfect helles.

I've done 4 lagers, so not the experience of others. A 3L starter on a stir plate will be enough yeast I think. I would take your starter out of the fridge as you start to chill your wort down. Bring your wort down to fermentation temps (or slightly below) before pitching. Then let it rise to 49 or 50 for fermentation. I typically see activity within 8-12 hours.

Oh, and 2.75 cups seems a bit strong for a 3L starter. 1.9-2 cups would put you in the 1.040 range. But probably not a big deal either way.

Then watch it for a slow down of activity to get your Diacetyl rest in before completion. I usually start mine 4-7 days in. 48 hours at 60F and then drop to lager temps.

StoneHands said:

NOOOOO!
I'm poking fun at you osagedr, but depending on what he's trying to make, I'd leave it alone.
I did a helles at the first of January that is almost identical to his recipe, but I left out the carafoam. 10 lbs pils, 8 oz Munich and that's it. Perfect helles.

Click to expand...

I put carapils in pretty much everything. Just going for some body & head retention. Also have been increasing the complexity of my grain bills--my last Vienna lager had 11 malts in it.

I'm brewing a Helles Style (well, trying at least)

Here's my understanding and goals... (I'm trying to think of an ideal timeline here, that's the B + / - dates)

1) Starter (B-2 days) : 3 L and 2 cups DME, Fermant K, Servomyces
- at room temp on stirplate

2) Brew (B= 0 days)
- cool wart to 55-60 degrees

3) Crash cool yeast starter to ~45, decant, and pitch after shaking the car-boy

4) Watch for fermentation to start (Kraeusen forms?), then drop to 50 degrees (B+ ~2 days )

5) Diacetyl Rest (B+ ~10 days)
- When fermentation starts to slow, allow beer to warm to 60 for about 48 hrs.

6) Rack over and lager (B+~12 days)
- lower temp to ~35 degree
- drink a different 'brew for 6 weeks

bamnq6 said:

I'm brewing a Helles Style (well, trying at least)

Here's my understanding and goals... (I'm trying to think of an ideal timeline here, that's the B + / - dates)

1) Starter (B-2 days) : 3 L and 2 cups DME, Fermant K, Servomyces
- at room temp on stirplate

2) Brew (B= 0 days)
- cool wart to 55-60 degrees

3) Crash cool yeast starter to ~45, decant, and pitch after shaking the car-boy

4) Watch for fermentation to start (Kraeusen forms?), then drop to 50 degrees (B+ ~2 days )

5) Diacetyl Rest (B+ ~10 days)
- When fermentation starts to slow, allow beer to warm to 60 for about 48 hrs.

6) Rack over and lager (B+~12 days)
- lower temp to ~35 degree
- drink a different 'brew for 6 weeks

Click to expand...

Couple of observations for what they're worth; (a) no point waiting until two days before brew day to make your starter; give them a bit more time to drop out of suspension; (b) I'm not sure why you would wait for signs of fermentation before chilling to the proper temperature. Pitch enough yeast and they'll ferment your beer. Pitch a couple degrees UNDER ferm temps if anything, then let the beer temperature rise. (3) I'd recommend using a hydrometer to decide when it's time for a d-rest (in your case probably about 1.018-1.020); (4) don't rack your beer until you are sure FG is hit; 48 hours might do it but unless you're in a rush give it a bit more time.

Good luck!

3L also sounds small to me! check those numbers. flaming the necks of flasks is a good idea early in propagation stages, when a few mold spores or wild yeasts can really get going in the wort. but after you have your starter made, and have brewed your wort, unless you are going to flame everything, the carboy neck when you transfer the wort, the boil kettle lid every time you open it after chilling, what's the point of being super sterile when pitching the yeast? if you're using normal clean practices at all other steps then using sterile technique at only one step only is like sandbagging half of a doorway in a flood.
i also agree to get your starter going early, and get it in the fridge to crash. lager yeasts can take a lot longer than ale yeasts to flocculate out.

bamnq6 said:

I'm brewing a Helles Style (well, trying at least)

Here's my understanding and goals... (I'm trying to think of an ideal timeline here, that's the B + / - dates)

1) Starter (B-2 days) : 3 L and 2 cups DME, Fermant K, Servomyces
- at room temp on stirplate

2) Brew (B= 0 days)
- cool wart to 55-60 degrees

3) Crash cool yeast starter to ~45, decant, and pitch after shaking the car-boy

4) Watch for fermentation to start (Kraeusen forms?), then drop to 50 degrees (B+ ~2 days )

5) Diacetyl Rest (B+ ~10 days)
- When fermentation starts to slow, allow beer to warm to 60 for about 48 hrs.

6) Rack over and lager (B+~12 days)
- lower temp to ~35 degree
- drink a different 'brew for 6 weeks

Click to expand...

I've been out for a couple of days, and not sure if you've already brewed or what, but I think a couple of these aren't the best practice (as some have said).

1. Start your starter a week in advance. Let it ferment on the stirplate and after it finishes (2 days or so) put it in the fridge. This is your crash cooling of the starter. If you're going to decant the starter beer (and you should for a helles) this has to be done well in advance.
2. Cool your wort to 45 degrees. Best to be below ferm temp. Do not pitch until it's at or below fermentation temps.
2A. Aerate/oxygenate - well.
3. Pull your 5 days' crashed starter out of the fridge, decant and pitch immediately (even though your starter is probably close to freezing, your wort is only 10 degrees warmer).
4. Skip your step 4 above, set your controller to 50 from the get-go. Your 45 degree wort should be allowed to rise to 50.
5. D-rest is most likely unnecessary if you pitch cold and enough yeast. But if you do decide to do one, 10 days will probably be too late. Probably more like day 6 or 7. Once the krausen starts to drop, then it's time.
6. 12 days is OK for this, just make sure you're at FG.

A 3L starter will only be adequate if your 833 is better than 95% viability (unlikely). Plan on a bigger or stepped starter.

As others have mentioned, pitch cold. Pitching warm is a homebrew trick only that tries to compensate for poor yeast health/population, and will lead to increased levels of diacetyl. If you have enough healthy yeast, your fermentation will take off in 8-12 hours at 48F.

Brew'd 2-18 OG: 1.060 (a bit high)
Pitched (@50f) 2-19
Krausen Rises 2-20
First Sample Puller on 2/25 (krausen starting to fall) G: 10.34

Obviously I won't be resting yet...

Does this seem slow to anyone else?? Or am I just impatient

Probably a little slow, but not bad. You probably under pitched a little, and maybe under aerated. Slow isn't such a bad thing. Give it 2-3 more days and check it again. Did you taste the sample? Any diacetyl in there? Also, how did you check the gravity? Hydro or refractometer?

I used a hydrometer for this reading and checked it in water after.

The sample tasted right on, obviously sweet though. No buttery notes that I could taste thru the sweet. I will admit, that I was drinking an IPA while pulling and tasting the sample so I may have blown out my taste-buds

I'll check it again on thursday. Thanks all-

UPDATE:

Brew'd 2-18 OG: 1.060 (a bit high)
Pitched (@50f) 2-19
Krausen Rises 2-20
First Sample Puller on 2/25 (krausen starting to fall) G: 1.034
Second Sample Pulled on 2/28 @ 1800 G: 1.025

Guess I'll pull a sample Saturday mornin??

bamnq6 said:

UPDATE:

Brew'd 2-18 OG: 1.060 (a bit high)
Pitched (@50f) 2-19
Krausen Rises 2-20
First Sample Puller on 2/25 (krausen starting to fall) G: 1.034
Second Sample Pulled on 2/28 @ 1800 G: 1.025

Guess I'll pull a sample Saturday mornin??

Click to expand...

Don't pull a sample for a while longer......I would still raise your temp 10 degrees for a week for a dyacetal rest. Then.......long...long....long cold storage. My dortmunder I brewed in November is just now peaked. It looks like all is well so far, this is how I do it though.
And do the cold storage off the yeast.....cool the finished beer after the rest...then rack to keg or secondary....then long cold storage.

Yeah, tomorrow I'd start letting it free rise to 60 or so and hold it there for a few days to a week for a d-rest. Wait and check the gravity then.

To me it sounds like its behaving like it was under aerated. Just proceeding a little slow.