Berliner Weiss, many ways

I apologize if this has been brought up already, just started reading the thread and have not gone back through it all yet.

I am still a beginning home brewer but have tried a good number of commercial sours and a few BW. Of those many have not been sour enough in my mind. Generally older/ BA sours more suit me but I did have one sour mash beer that was nicely tart and pretty young. I didn't ask exactly and wish start by saying I have not tried this myself but both from books and this one example brewed by a friend it seems a sour mash can produce a sour pretty quickly.

To clarify by sour mash I mean mashing, no boil, cool to 100, put in sanitized bucket, add crushed pale malted barley (not mashed or anything), cover with foil, close bucket, and then try to keep near 100 for 24 hours. Papazian says 24 should be sufficient, I think my friend (the one I actually tried) went 48. After that boil and continue the rest as normal I believe pitching with regular ale yeast although I could be wrong on that part.

Anyone try this method?

sclitch said:

If anyone is interested, I recently got a silver medal in the sour category with this process. I haven't yet received my score or any judging notes but here are a few tasting notes of my own.
Very pale, cloudy, effervescent. Not a whole lot on the nose, a little grainy. Taste is sharply sour, like a punch in the jaw, lots of breadiness as well.

It's probably around 4.2%

50/50 pils/wheat. Low mash temperature. For the souring, I put all of the wort in about 5 one gallon milk jugs. I added a handful of uncrushed 2-row pale malt to each jug, squeezed all of the air out and screwed caps on them. Tossed these all inside my fermentation chamber (heated with a hair dryer). I had them souring at 95F for 3 days and I still wasn't happy with how sour it was becoming so I added a bit more uncrushed grain to each and ramped up the temperature to 110 for another 3 days. Finally I was satisfied with the sourness (I like em sour), I did a quick 15 min boil with 5 IBU worth of Hallertauer. Fermented with Safale-05 at ~68F for 10 days then bottled.

I never noticed any bad aromas during fermentation. Maybe because I was able to limit the oxygen exposure to the wort.

The only problem was that one of the milk jugs cracked! That was a fun mess to clean up.......................

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I like this idea. I have a gose that's been fermenting for 3 months that has everything going on perfectly except the sourness. I'm planning to use the same recipe using this sour mash strategy and then blend the two batches.

I will be trying my hand at my first bw today. Rereading the first post, looks like my attempt will fall under 5b.

I plan to sour the entire mash, not just the wort (not sure if there's a difference or advantage either way).

Picked up a cheap 5gal cooler that I will probably dedicate to this process if it works well.

Today I'll mash 60% pils/ 40% wheat at 149f for 90 minutes, then remove the cooler lid and allow it to cool naturally to 110.

When it hits 110, I'll stir in a few handfuls of uncrushed 2-row, close the lid and hope the cooler holds temps at least above 90f for a few days.

After 3 or 4 days, I'll complete the runoff, and boil the sour wort (sounds like 15 mins is enough to kill the lacto?)

Once cooled, I'll probably pitch a slurry of cal ale yeast.

Anyone have any comments or see any failures in my thought process?

So I did a no-boil BW 2 weeks ago. Mashed for about 5 hours. Ranoff directly from the mash tun into the fermentor and cooled to about 80. Pitched a big starter of lacto, and held at 98 for about a week before I pitched a packet of Wyeast 1007, and fermented at 68. It's sitting at about 1.001 gravity right now. It's nicely sour, but it is also full of DMS. Getting lots of cooked corn.

Any idea how to get rid of the DMS? I think next time I try it I'll go with a short boil.

Coldcrash,

I like the idea of a seperate mash tun, I did a few of these and the sour wort got into the side walls on the cooler somehow and got really funky after a few brews so a dedicated tun is not bad at all.

As for process, the lactobacillus likes 122F as it's top end temperature so you would be wise to only cool to 120F or so instead of 110F. Also, I have always cooled to 120F as fast as possible, and letting it air cool could be introducing the less desirable bacteria into the process. Cooling to 120F, pitch the grain. I have done 10% of total mash weight in unmilled pilsner malt with good results. Blanket with CO2, cover with plastic wrap and throw another CO2 blanket on there, cover and insulate as best you can. Come back in about 48 hours to a nice sour mash which has dropped to about 90F. I usually pull a decoction for mash out up to 170F then runoff and sparge. Boil for 15 minutes with your hops, yeast nutrients and whirlfloc. Chill and pitch any yeast on hand.


Anderhoff.blogspot.com

What about adding the lacto to the bottling bucket and letting it sour in the bottle?
Reason I ask is that I don't currently have a way to maintain 90*-100* for several days.

Medic218 said:

What about adding the lacto to the bottling bucket and letting it sour in the bottle?
Reason I ask is that I don't currently have a way to maintain 90*-100* for several days.

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Lacto doesn't take off well when alcohol is already present, don't think you'd get any tartness. If you can add your lacto at 115-120 and wrap in blankets and keep in the warmest part of the house you should be ok.

Indytruks138 said:

Lacto doesn't take off well when alcohol is already present, don't think you'd get any tartness. If you can add your lacto at 115-120 and wrap in blankets and keep in the warmest part of the house you should be ok.

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I'm in Little Elm. Maybe we could get together and you could guide me on this one sometime.
I do extract right now.
So, would you suggest two boils?
Boil extracts, cool to 120*, pitch lacto, wrap in blankets and set aside for a few days, return to boil, hop, cool, transfer to fermenter, aerate, pitch yeast, put it away?

What strains of sach are you guys using for these beers? German ale yeast?

Firenze said:

What strains of sach are you guys using for these beers? German ale yeast?

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Yeah, German Ale yeast usually. Wyeast 1007 does really well with the low pH. I've used US-05 in my pre-soured wort (with Lacto, not sour mashed) and have had no issues with it.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hClp9huB1M[/ame]

dantheman13 said:

Yeah, German Ale yeast usually. Wyeast 1007 does really well with the low pH. I've used US-05 in my pre-soured wort (with Lacto, not sour mashed) and have had no issues with it.

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How long did your wort take to sour? Mine has been sitting at 115 for 3 days with 2 handfuls of grain and nothing really spectacular. A little tart but not where I would like it.


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PJoyce85 said:

How long did your wort take to sour? Mine has been sitting at 115 for 3 days with 2 handfuls of grain and nothing really spectacular. A little tart but not where I would like it.


Sent from my iPhone using Home

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I've never used grain, only the WLP677 Lacto. I pitched a vial, no starter, into 4 gallons of wort and let it sit for 7 days at outside ambient temps (85-95, nightly temperature shifts). When I bottled it at around 8 months (I added Brett) it was slightly more tart than Oarsman Ale from Bells. As it aged another year (I am a slow drinker), it got REALLY sour.

I have a video playlist on my youtube page if you are interested.

I would suggest letting yours sit a few more days and see what you get.

I'm thinking about doing this by souring the wort after sparging. I'm curious about how much headspace the lacto needs though. Anyone have experience with this?

Carros said:

I'm thinking about doing this by souring the wort after sparging. I'm curious about how much headspace the lacto needs though. Anyone have experience with this?

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Are you talking about souring with grains/lacto and then boiling, or going straight from sparging to fermentation? If you're just doing this as a modified sour mash (a sour sparge?), then you aren't going to want any headspace, because any oxygen is going to lead to acetobacter growth and vinegar.

If you're talking about doing a no-boil and then straight to fermentation, I don't remember that lacto made much of a krausen the one time I tried it that way, although others might have more experience. You'll still want the headspace for whatever yeast gets added eventually.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do yet. Right now I'm leaning towards sparging, pitching lacto and letting it sour for a few days, then doing a short boil before pitching the yeast. I'm trying to get a feel for if there is any significant foaming I would need to worry about with the lacto.

I thought I would chime in on my previous BW attempt from last year which smelled SO HORRIBLE that I posted about previously. At the time, I mentioned people crossing the street when I was boiling, due to the horrible vomit aroma that was emanating from the BK. My entire garage and probably a 50' radius around the BK smelled very strongly of vomit.

This was about 14 months ago. I pitched one half with WLP655 (Sour Mix 1), and the other with dregs from a RR Supplication and a Fantome Printemps. Now, 14 months later, I open up these guys and take a whiff to see how things are going.

I did a taste test on #1 and #2 probably around 6-8 months ago, and at that time, they both had vomit aromas, although #2 wasn't nearly as overpowering.

#1 (WLP655) still smells completely awful, like I should be dumping a bag of kitty litter into the fermenter
#2 (Supplication/Printemps) smells great with the faint farmhouse/barnyard character one gets from a long Brett fermentation, along with various other sour notes

I haven't done an actual updated taste test yet, but I'm leaning towards dumping #1, including disposal of the fermenter, and packaging #2 for consumption with about 3 volumes of C02.

Carros said:

I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do yet. Right now I'm leaning towards sparging, pitching lacto and letting it sour for a few days, then doing a short boil before pitching the yeast. I'm trying to get a feel for if there is any significant foaming I would need to worry about with the lacto.

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If you're doing it in a large-mouthed container (mash tun, BK, bucket, etc) I've seen people use plastic wrap to cover the top of the water to prevent oxygen from getting in. That would give you your oxygen barrier, as well as leave the flexibility to expand if you get any significant foaming. Like I said, I don't remember seeing any foaming, but I had boiled and pitched lacto in a carboy, then kinda left the lacto alone while it was in there, so I can't say for sure.

Carros said:

I'm thinking about doing this by souring the wort after sparging. I'm curious about how much headspace the lacto needs though. Anyone have experience with this?

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I did just a sour wort as well in a 5 gallon keg. Basically filled it to the brim, no headspace needed. After souring, I added about 3/4 gallon of (pre-boiled, etc..) water to dilute (plan for this in advance) and then boiled for 30 minutes with hops.

Carros said:

I'm thinking about doing this by souring the wort after sparging. I'm curious about how much headspace the lacto needs though. Anyone have experience with this?

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It depends on the species of Lacto that you are working with. Some are homofermentative (only produce lactic acid) while others are heterofermentative (produce CO2 and ethanol). If you use WLP677, it should create a couple of inches of foam:

http://youtu.be/fPEOTkAiwAo?t=3m56s

Although not a berliner, I started a gose yesterday with a sour mash.

I modeled my effort after sclitch's method with the milk jugs. I'm doing a 3 gallon batch of 3.33 lbs wheat, 2 lbs pilsner, and 0.33 lbs acidulated malt. Mashed at 151 for 60 minutes and sparged at 168 for 15 minutes. Chilled the wort to 100 degrees.

I then poured the wort in 3 1-gallon milk jugs. 2 have a small handful of uncrushed acidulated malt, and 1 has a small handful of uncrushed maris otter. For each jug I filled as much as I could, squeezed the last bit of air out, and placed the cap back on.

My fermentation chamber doesn't get hot, so I emptied my electric smoker and fit the the jugs onto the bottom rack. I closed the lid and set it to about 107 degrees (my smoker has a thermometer drilled into the lid).

It's been 24 hours, and each jug has a delightful apple juice/lemonade tang to it (slightly more in the acidulated malt jugs).

I plan to squeeze the air out and check daily until it's as sour as I want. At that point I'll do a 20 minute boil with a bit of Hellertau and add coriander and sea salt (0.2 oz/gallon each) at 5 minutes. Ferment out with US-05, and we'll see how this is in a few weeks!

I brewed a BW with Wyeast Lacto (did a 10 day apple juice starter) and after a month or so, it still didn't have any tartness. I ended up adding Crooked Stave Surette dregs which supposedly contain both Lacto and CMY brett strain(s) to help things along. In less than a week after adding the dregs, I'm definitely getting airlock activity and a pellicle forming.

Although not really much of a BW anymore with the brett, am I looking at long term aging for the brett to do its thing? With the OG around 1.030, I could see this being done in a few months rather than a year-plus although some extended aging could provide interesting complexity. Also, with the brett, I suppose I no longer need to worry about pitching any sacc.

italarican said:

Although not a berliner, I started a gose yesterday with a sour mash.

I modeled my effort after sclitch's method with the milk jugs. I'm doing a 3 gallon batch of 3.33 lbs wheat, 2 lbs pilsner, and 0.33 lbs acidulated malt. Mashed at 151 for 60 minutes and sparged at 168 for 15 minutes. Chilled the wort to 100 degrees.

I then poured the wort in 3 1-gallon milk jugs. 2 have a small handful of uncrushed acidulated malt, and 1 has a small handful of uncrushed maris otter. For each jug I filled as much as I could, squeezed the last bit of air out, and placed the cap back on.

My fermentation chamber doesn't get hot, so I emptied my electric smoker and fit the the jugs onto the bottom rack. I closed the lid and set it to about 107 degrees (my smoker has a thermometer drilled into the lid).

It's been 24 hours, and each jug has a delightful apple juice/lemonade tang to it (slightly more in the acidulated malt jugs).

I plan to squeeze the air out and check daily until it's as sour as I want. At that point I'll do a 20 minute boil with a bit of Hellertau and add coriander and sea salt (0.2 oz/gallon each) at 5 minutes. Ferment out with US-05, and we'll see how this is in a few weeks!

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Would be interested to know your OG (+ volume), your gravity pre boil (presumably the same volume), and gravity post boil (+ volume).

Calder said:

Would be interested to know your OG (+ volume), your gravity pre boil (presumably the same volume), and gravity post boil (+ volume).

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I will be putting this back in the pot tomorrow for my boil and hop/coriander/salt additions, so I'll post a gravity reading after that.

Pre boil gravity was 1.048 (for 3.0 gallons, efficiency of 68.75%). Efficiency was a touch lower than I'm used to but nothing to worry about.

Samples taste great at 48 hours! Delightfully tart (apple juice flavors with some sour sharpness just making its way in the finish). This is where I'd probably stop it if this were the whole batch; however, I started this experiment because I brewed 3 gallons of this gose with lacto in January, and it never really got sour. I'm going to blend the batches once this one ferments, so I'm going to let this sit at 107 for another day so that it'll be as sour as I want after blending.

Any problems with the wort picking up a smoked aroma? I've thought about doing this with my boil kettle inside an electric smoker but was worried it would pickup a BBQ smoke flavor and/or aroma.

KindofBlues71 said:

Any problems with the wort picking up a smoked aroma? I've thought about doing this with my boil kettle inside an electric smoker but was worried it would pickup a BBQ smoke flavor and/or aroma.

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I had this concern too, but it's been no issue. I removed the grease absorber, drip tray, wood try, etc. from the smoker and turned it on with the lid off for a few hours beforehand to air out. No smoke aroma on the jugs, and no smoke presence in the wort.

italarican said:

I will be putting this back in the pot tomorrow for my boil and hop/coriander/salt additions, so I'll post a gravity reading after that.

Pre boil gravity was 1.048 (for 3.0 gallons, efficiency of 68.75%). Efficiency was a touch lower than I'm used to but nothing to worry about.

Samples taste great at 48 hours! Delightfully tart (apple juice flavors with some sour sharpness just making its way in the finish). This is where I'd probably stop it if this were the whole batch; however, I started this experiment because I brewed 3 gallons of this gose with lacto in January, and it never really got sour. I'm going to blend the batches once this one ferments, so I'm going to let this sit at 107 for another day so that it'll be as sour as I want after blending.

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If you have a heterofermentative lacto, you will create alcohol, and lower the gravity during the souring process. If you then boil, you will get an increase in gravity during the boil due to boiling off the alcohol.

Calder said:

If you have a heterofermentative lacto, you will create alcohol, and lower the gravity during the souring process. If you then boil, you will get an increase in gravity during the boil due to boiling off the alcohol.

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I'm not familiar with the implications of heterofermentative lacto. In any event, my gravity stayed essentially the same after 72 hours: 1.046, which could easily be reader error on my part.

After boil I'm at 1.052 for 2.75 gallons of beer (68.27% efficiency)

Here's a picture of my setup with the smoker:

Doing my first Berliner using method 5a from beginning of post (Sour mash, yeast fermentation). Soured for 26 hours @ 105 degrees in a converted fridge using a Ranco controller. Nice smelling funk/bite during boil.

Has anybody else used this method that has any observations that could be shared?

Thanks in advance!

djturner

My club did an educational segment on sour mashing this past weekend in preparation for a Berlinner Weiss fest we are participating in in June. Here's the step-by-step instructions we came up with. It's a good summary of this thread!

Grain Bill (5.0 gallon batch)
4 lbs crushed Wheat Malt (or 3 lbs Wheat LME)
4 lbs crushed Pilsner Malt (or 3 lbs Pils LME)
0.5 lbs UNCRUSHED extra Pilsner/Two-Row Malt for sour inoculation
Hop to taste (traditional BWs have no hops, those that do are very low IBU<10)
Liquid German Ale Yeast (traditional) or S-05 dry yeast

Procedures
1) Mash crushed malts at 146-148F for at least 20 minutes, holding back 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt. You may find it useful to complete this step with a smaller pot at a 1.0-1.25 qt/lb grist ratio to make it easier to handle (especially BIAB brewers that would typically use full water volume).

2) After 20 minute mash, cool to 110F, add the 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt to the mash and stir it in.

3) Cover the mash with cling wrap, etc. If possible, purge the O2 from between the grain bed and the cling wrap. Easy way to do this is take the gas disconnect off your CO2 tank, put the tube under the cling wrap, allowing space for O2 to escape, and open your CO2 tank for a couple seconds.

4) You&#8217;ll need a method to maintain the temp at about 90-120F for 2-4 days. The higher the temp in this range, the faster it will sour. A couple suggestions:

a. A 40 watt light bulb will maintain a 100-110F temp in an insulated cooler/closed fermentation chamber, or even in the oven with just the internal oven light on. Wrap the pot in a towel to help insulation.

b. Space heater in an interior closet/bathroom. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!

c. Keep the bottom/sides in contact with a heating pad, wrapping the pot in towels/blanket. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!


5) At 100F, you should get a light sour in 2 days, moderate sour in 3 days, and prominent sour in 4 days. Taste the mash in about 8 hour intervals throughout to test sour levels to your personal tastes, being careful to maintain the CO2 blanket (repeat O2 purge, if necessary). Remember that you will add water to get to your full volume, diluting the sour level, so plan accordingly.

6) Once you have your desired sour level, complete your brew day as normal. The boil will stop the souring process by killing the lactobacillus, and lock in the sour profile of the existing lactic acid.

7) Cool/Pitch/Ferment as normal.

TIPS and TRICKS

&#61607; Lactic acid is relatively dense and will screw up OG readings, so don&#8217;t worry if something seems a little off. Also, some species of lactobacillus produce alcohol, and some don&#8217;t, so there may be up to 10-15% attenuation/gravity loss during your sour mash.

&#61607; Your sour mash SHOULD smell pretty pungent. In particular, a healthy lactobacillus sour mash should smell like cooked corn.

&#61607; You WILL need to either make a proper yeast starter or pitch multiple packs for this sour beer. The saccharomyces strains in the German Ale yeast/S-05 HATE the low PH of the lactic acid, and will stall/be sluggish without a proper pitch rate. Yeast nutrient always helps as well. Also oxygenate well prior to pitching!

&#61607; A Berliner Weiss should be carbonated to 3.0-3.5 volumes CO2.

&#61607; Great with real fruit additions in secondary or with flavored syrups!

coldcrash said:

I will be trying my hand at my first bw today. Rereading the first post, looks like my attempt will fall under 5b.

I plan to sour the entire mash, not just the wort (not sure if there's a difference or advantage either way).

Picked up a cheap 5gal cooler that I will probably dedicate to this process if it works well.

Today I'll mash 60% pils/ 40% wheat at 149f for 90 minutes, then remove the cooler lid and allow it to cool naturally to 110.

When it hits 110, I'll stir in a few handfuls of uncrushed 2-row, close the lid and hope the cooler holds temps at least above 90f for a few days.

After 3 or 4 days, I'll complete the runoff, and boil the sour wort (sounds like 15 mins is enough to kill the lacto?)

Once cooled, I'll probably pitch a slurry of cal ale yeast.

Anyone have any comments or see any failures in my thought process?

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Wanted to come back and provide some followup. I brewed my Berliner Weisse on 4/19, and it is now on day 7 in bottles.

I would say it has a pronounced tartness but it's definitely not puckeringly sour as most of us probably are looking for. The beer finished at 1.009, a few pts shy of my expected 1.006, but the sacch was definitely finished (FG reading had not moved in a week) and I trust there's no live lacto left after the 15 min boil.

I followed my quoted process, with a few variations.

First, at the end of the 148 rest, I added enough room temp water to fill the cooler. This accomplished three things: 1 It helped get the temp down to 110 more quickly, 2 eliminated head space to help hold temp, 3 eliminated head space to minimize O2 exposure. I did not purge with CO2, but there was virtually no head space in the cooler so O2 exposure should have been minimal.

Second, per drawdy10's recommendation, I pulled a decoction after 48 hours for a mash out at 168.

I'm happy with the results for a first attempt, and will be brewing another batch soon. A few changes I will make in version 2.0:

1. Increasing white wheat to 50% of grain bill. Color of my BW 1.0 was not quite as light as I wanted.

2. Cooling only to 120 before pitching unmilled grains. This should give the mash more time in the lacto temp zone, and I should be able to extend the souring rest to 72-96 hours for a hopefully more puckering tartness.

3. Pitching a slurry of Kolsch yeast instead of Cal ale. Also over-pitching slightly. I used an appropriately sized slurry for a 1.032 wort, but based on multiple comments here, that may not have been enough in this acidic wort.

I made my first Berliner (first sour of any kind) on Thursday night. I decided to sour my wort instead of my mash as my ferm chambers are only large enough for better bottles so this was the easiest way for me. I'm beginning to wonder if adding hops was a bad idea though. It's been 44 hours and there are no signs of fermentation whatsoever. I've read that Lacto can have a long lag time, so maybe I'm worrying about nothing? Details of everything are below.

Wort:
Mash was 50% white wheat malt, 50% continental pilsner. Multi step mash. 20 at 122, 40 at 148, 30 at 162, 5 at 170. OG was 1.028. Boiled for 20 minutes, 10 minutes of which had 1oz of Saaz hops for a callculated 6 IBU. This was a 7 gallon batch. Wort went into a better bottle, I did not aerate.

Starter:
I pitched a 2L starter I had stepped up twice over 10 days. I purged the headspace with CO2 and installed an airlock. I made the starter with 1.030 sugar solution and a handful of uncrushed MO. After 4 days the starter slowed down and I topped off to 2L with more 1.030 sugar solution. Starter was kept at 110 in my ferm chamber the whole time. Taste of starter was great, smell was good too.

PH of beer is currently 4.2. No signs whatsoever of fermentation and gravity also remains unchanged.

**Edit**
This took off like gangbusters on the 4th day. PH is down to 3.85.

I've done some more reading and came across something interesting I don't remember seeing in this thread:
When you do a grain starter like I did it is best to step up at least twice since the decreasing PH (increasing acidity) will kill a lot of the undesirable bugs. The theory being that the first step will decrease the PH, but not enough to kill a lot of the other undesirables that the second step will kill. This won't kill all undesirables, obviously, but any reduction in the baby diaper and vomit smell/taste imparting bacteria is a plus for sure.

I ended up doing my first BW back in March. I did a no boil.

Made a 2l starter of wyeast lacto at 98 degrees. Ran off right from t the mash tun to the fermentor, which was weird. Pitched the starter, for a week at 98. Saw very little activity, so pitched another packet of yeast. At 7 days, pitched a pack of German ale , which finished at about 1.002.

At this point, the beer was full of dms.just disgusting. Nicely tart, with flavor and aroma of cooked corn. So I left it for about two months, and now it's great. No more trace of dms, nice and tart. Will be bottling at 4.5 volumes into champagne bottles. Might fruit some.peaches will be in season soon.

This is my first sour beer and decided to try the sour mash method.
Did 3 lbs wheat 3lbs pilsner and 8.0z acidulated. Mashed at 149 in 2 1/2 gallons for 60 min. chilled to 110 then threw in a handful of unmilled grains
Just let it sit in my cooler/mash tun and threw some O2 on top.
48 hours later this smells like strong cooked corn, no other nasty smells so I might have lucked out.
Tonight I plan to gather my 1st run then batch sparge at 170, does that sound right? I realize I'm diluting the wort but wasn't trying for a super sour, just noticeably sour. Will boil for 20 min, 5 min with a 1/4 oz citra, chill and pitch S05.
Do you think I should rehydrate the S05 or just sprinkle it directly in the wort like the instructions say?

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

TopherM said:

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

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Thanks for that tip!
I'll pick up a few more packs on my way home tonight.
I'm not stuck having to use S05 just something I picked after seeing other folks use it.

TopherM said:

You are going to need more than 1 packet of S05. You really should have made a big starter. Sacromycese yeast strains HATE the acidity you are about to pitch them in, and they will lag or not work at all in that kind of acidity.

If you want to use S-05, I'd literally do 3-4 packets. Hydrating isn't a big deal either way, but you definitely want to make sure you introduce a bunch of oxygen when you pitch. I stir like a banchee with a big wisk for about 90 seconds.

Good luck!

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3-4 packets of S-o5 for 6.5 lbs of fermentables? 1 packet should be plenty for that.

Rehydrating not necessary but recommended. As long as you're using pre-boiled water, it won't make your beer worse and can only make it better by getting fermentation started earlier.

When I've pitched US-05 onto pre-soured wort, I've re-hydrated 1 pack with GoFerm yeast nutrient with very good results. The beer was a BW with no Brett to help with off flavors caused by a stressed Sacch fermentation, and the beer came out sour but otherwise very clean clean. I've also pitched a packet of dried yeast on other non-BW sours on top of old sour yeast cakes, and these have always seemed to ferment a little slower when not re-hydrated with GoFerm. However, the stressed Sacch fermentation (if they were stressed) didn't negatively effect the beer that I noticed. These beers have always been aged with Brettanomyces, however. I agree that 3-4 packs of US-05 isn't necessary either way.

In general now I always try to re-hydrate the US-05 with GoFerm when pitching it into an already soured wort.

I've also successfully fermented out a Berliner weisse that I'd soured with lacto incubated at 100 F (as best as I could) for a week using one rehydrated packet of US-05. I don't think I used yeast nutrient, but it's not a bad idea.

Also, I'm of the opinion that rehydrating does make a big difference. It certainly has an impact on cell viability.

italarican said:

3-4 packets of S-o5 for 6.5 lbs of fermentables? 1 packet should be plenty for that.

Rehydrating not necessary but recommended. As long as you're using pre-boiled water, it won't make your beer worse and can only make it better by getting fermentation started earlier.

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Exactly this. I've done these many of times and have had great success with one pack/6gal.