Wondering how commercial breweries carbonate in the bottle?

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It's pretty obvious if they do - there'll be yeast sediment in the bottle. If there isn't, it was filtered and force carbed before bottling - the majority of commercial beer is done this way.
 
some beers actually naturally carbonate the entire big batch of beer then bottle it the way you would bottle forced carbonated beer. It must be an interesting operation to watch, and a well designed huge tank to hold all that pressure.
 
I thought when I toured a brewery this fall, they said they caught the CO2 off of fermentation, stored it as a liquid, and then used it as part of their canning/bottling process.
 
sweet_corn said:
I thought when I toured a brewery this fall, they said they caught the CO2 off of fermentation, stored it as a liquid, and then used it as part of their canning/bottling process.
huh?

what brewery is that? so, they compress it to form liquid, then they shoot it into the beer, hehe...that sounds interesting
 
sweet_corn said:
I thought when I toured a brewery this fall, they said they caught the CO2 off of fermentation, stored it as a liquid, and then used it as part of their canning/bottling process.

I guess its cheaper than buying co2? maybe. At the very least it is a neat little trick.
 
bigben said:
what brewery is that? so, they compress it to form liquid, then they shoot it into the beer, hehe...that sounds interesting
It's a common practice among big breweries since it's fairly efficient. It's been discussed among homebrewers but fairly unanimously agreed that it's impractical at best on a small scale.
 
Force carbonation is actually only used by small brewers. The bigger ones carbonate during the secondary fermentation/lagering by simply keeping the fermentation vessels under controlled pressure. This is pretty easy to do (even for the home brewer) and much cheaper than buying CO2. If the brewery is big enough they also harvest the CO2 from the fermentation and use it in the brewing process or sell it.

German brewers have to use fermentation CO2 for carbonation. Any other CO2 violates the Reinheitsgebot.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
Force carbonation is actually only used by small brewers. The bigger ones carbonate during the secondary fermentation/lagering by simply keeping the fermentation vessels under controlled pressure. This is pretty easy to do (even for the home brewer) and much cheaper than buying CO2. If the brewery is big enough they also harvest the CO2 from the fermentation and use it in the brewing process or sell it.
Kai

But if the beer is already carbonated in the fermentation vessel and they fill the bottle, doesnt the beer foam all over the place while bottling?
hmm....
 
jiffybrew said:
But if the beer is already carbonated in the fermentation vessel and they fill the bottle, doesnt the beer foam all over the place while bottling?
hmm....

z987k got it. The beer doesn't foam up if the ambient pressure of CO2 is the pressure of CO2 is the pressure needed to maintain that carbonation level at that temperature.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
Force carbonation is actually only used by small brewers. The bigger ones carbonate during the secondary fermentation/lagering by simply keeping the fermentation vessels under controlled pressure. This is pretty easy to do (even for the home brewer) and much cheaper than buying CO2. If the brewery is big enough they also harvest the CO2 from the fermentation and use it in the brewing process or sell it.

German brewers have to use fermentation CO2 for carbonation. Any other CO2 violates the Reinheitsgebot.

Kai

What about using gyle from the next batch to condition a batch ready to bottle? That doesn't violate R-bot.
 
jiffybrew said:
But if the beer is already carbonated in the fermentation vessel and they fill the bottle, doesnt the beer foam all over the place while bottling?
hmm....

The rapid bottle fillers at most breweries work in a very similar way to the blichman beer gun, they actually do not pressurize the bottle before filling, they just fill the bottles till they overflow, then cap the bottle. The amount of headspace in comercial bottles is fairly standard as the foam turns to co2 and beer (25% beer 75% co2). Home brewers usually try to get similar headspaces in their beers, but could actually go down to as little as 1/2 an inch in the bottle when bottle conditioning.
 
Kaiser said:
…brewers…carbonate during the secondary fermentation/lagering by simply keeping the fermentation vessels under controlled pressure.

This is exactly what I saw when I visited the micro here in town last week. Once the gravity gets to a certain level (let’s say 85% of expected attenuation), the primary vessels are locked down under pressure with a pressure relief valve set at about 15PSI.

This allows the beer to absorb the CO2 being produced and not over carbonate because of the relief valve. The last five days (of about a 2 1/2 week period), the primaries are dropped to 29 degrees to crash chill and drop the yeast. CO2 is then “locked in” at that colder temp. Counter pressure bottle filling equipment prevents loss of carbonation and the higher start point of a 15PSI, offsets any loss.

If you were to translate this to a homebrew process, I’d say you rack from the primary to a keg when your gravity is about at the 85% mark. (OG = 1.045, FG Expected is 1.010…rack at 1.015).

I’ve actually had kegs that were completely fermented out that sat for 3-4 weeks at room temp and by the time they were hooked up to a tank, they were about 50% carbonated.

For bottling, you could do the same thing…though I’d experiment with bottling off just a few bottles at that earlier stage to determine the right gravity for the process.
 
I think you can buy a adjustable pressure relief valve that is connected to a gas-in ball lock connector. Just move from pirmary to keg as the krausen is falling and attached the valve. It'll carb up in the keg.

Personally sounds like more trouble than it's worth though. CO2 is pretty cheap.
 
jdoiv said:
...Personally sounds like more trouble than it's worth though. CO2 is pretty cheap.
True, but for someone who brews a higher volume than their serving kegerator(s) can handle, having that beer that's in the pipeline already carb'd might be convenient.

I have seven taps, but once I add an uncarb'd keg to charge up...that tap is off line temporarily.
 
As someone who owns the beer gun, I've been having some head retention issues. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. The beer is all carbed up in the keg. Sometimes it's been sitting at high pressure for over a week before I bottle any of it. I usually bottle at 10 psi, but for some reason I am getting very low head retention. The head retention is fine when I pour from the tap, why am I having such a problem force carb with the ber gun?
 
Cheesefood said:
What about using gyle from the next batch to condition a batch ready to bottle? That doesn't violate R-bot.

Yeah but then there is sediment/clarity issues, some germans like beer with yeast but most breweries keep their beers crystal clear (unless its a hefe...)
 
As someone who owns the beer gun, I've been having some head retention issues. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. The beer is all carbed up in the keg. Sometimes it's been sitting at high pressure for over a week before I bottle any of it. I usually bottle at 10 psi, but for some reason I am getting very low head retention. The head retention is fine when I pour from the tap, why am I having such a problem force carb with the ber gun?

Possible cleaner/sanitizer residue in the bottles? I've read any soap residue is a head killer. Happens with my glasses sometimes.
 
German brewers have to use fermentation CO2 for carbonation. Any other CO2 violates the Reinheitsgebot.

I have a friend with a degree in brewing and beverage technology from some german university, and he said this is not the case; that the CO2 capture was largely a self-enforced move by breweries that want to look like they are complying to what is a largely irrelevant, even in Germany, directive, but there is no legal problem with force-carbing with any ole' CO2.
 
Cascadegan said:
Yeah but then there is sediment/clarity issues, some germans like beer with yeast but most breweries keep their beers crystal clear (unless its a hefe...)

Sorry I thought you said bottle condition (you mean just adding wort during secondary in a closed system right?)
 
BetterSense said:
I have a friend with a degree in brewing and beverage technology from some german university, and he said this is not the case; that the CO2 capture was largely a self-enforced move by breweries that want to look like they are complying to what is a largely irrelevant, even in Germany, directive, but there is no legal problem with force-carbing with any ole' CO2.

I wouldn't say its largely irrelevant, lots of germans are very proud of their history and try to preserve it (they even banned non traditional music at oktoberfest during certain hours)
But the EU got rid of the actual law
 
This is exactly what I saw when I visited the micro here in town last week. Once the gravity gets to a certain level (let’s say 85% of expected attenuation), the primary vessels are locked down under pressure with a pressure relief valve set at about 15PSI.

This allows the beer to absorb the CO2 being produced and not over carbonate because of the relief valve. The last five days (of about a 2 1/2 week period), the primaries are dropped to 29 degrees to crash chill and drop the yeast. CO2 is then “locked in” at that colder temp. Counter pressure bottle filling equipment prevents loss of carbonation and the higher start point of a 15PSI, offsets any loss.

If you were to translate this to a homebrew process, I’d say you rack from the primary to a keg when your gravity is about at the 85% mark. (OG = 1.045, FG Expected is 1.010…rack at 1.015).

I’ve actually had kegs that were completely fermented out that sat for 3-4 weeks at room temp and by the time they were hooked up to a tank, they were about 50% carbonated.

For bottling, you could do the same thing…though I’d experiment with bottling off just a few bottles at that earlier stage to determine the right gravity for the process.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't this process interfere with dry hopping as the beer is racked to the keg before fermentation is complete? When would you dry hop?

In my opinion, to avoid any interference with dry hopping as well as the sediment that comes with bottle conditioning, you could just rack to a keg after fermentation and dry hopping is complete, add your priming sugar and once carbonation is complete, fill your bottles using a counter pressure filler.

I plan on testing my theory to again, avoid the unsightly deposit at the bottom of the bottle as well as the adverse flavors the yeast deposits can cause when agitated. In other words, I'd like to be able to drink straight from the bottle as well as not having to tell someone they have to pour the beer out slowly as to not disturb the yeast.

To preempt any comments that suggest force carbonation in the keg and simply follow up with a beer gun, I prefer carbonation that is produced naturally much more than artificially. In my opinion, natural carbonation produces a much tighter and more stable Co2 bubble, where as force carbonation seems more frothy with larger, less stable Co2 bubbles.

Has anyone tried naturally carbonating in the keg and the filling bottles with a counter pressure filler?
 
What would happen if you naturally carbonated in a keg after the fermentation and dry hopping is done and bottle it straight from the keg. Sawing one inch off of the pickup tube would that prevent from picking up the sediment on the bottom? I'm assuming you're you're still have to hook it up to CO2 to help push the beer out when you bottle.
 
This is exactly what I saw when I visited the micro here in town last week. Once the gravity gets to a certain level (let’s say 85% of expected attenuation), the primary vessels are locked down under pressure with a pressure relief valve set at about 15PSI.

This allows the beer to absorb the CO2 being produced and not over carbonate because of the relief valve. The last five days (of about a 2 1/2 week period), the primaries are dropped to 29 degrees to crash chill and drop the yeast. CO2 is then “locked in” at that colder temp. Counter pressure bottle filling equipment prevents loss of carbonation and the higher start point of a 15PSI, offsets any loss.

If you were to translate this to a homebrew process, I’d say you rack from the primary to a keg when your gravity is about at the 85% mark. (OG = 1.045, FG Expected is 1.010…rack at 1.015).

I’ve actually had kegs that were completely fermented out that sat for 3-4 weeks at room temp and by the time they were hooked up to a tank, they were about 50% carbonated.

For bottling, you could do the same thing…though I’d experiment with bottling off just a few bottles at that earlier stage to determine the right gravity for the process.

I would not expect 15 psi to be sufficient. At fermentation temps (mid 60's for an ale), carbonation charts show that you'd need 21 psi for 2 volumes.
 

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