Why can't I...?

I've got a one gallon carboy fermenting some pure apple juice at present. I put about two cups of sugar in with it and expect it will end up at around 8 to 10 abv. I really don't have a plan for when it is done fermenting and came up with a crazy idea. I was thinking about dropping some potassium sorbate in to stop fermentation, add some apple extract to get an apple bite (I imagine it will be quite bitter if I don't) and mixing it with carbonated water at bottling ( 1. to tone it down a bit and 2. to give it a hint of carbonation) Has anyone tried this or have any ideas why this might not work? Any input is appreciated...

do it

Well, the problem I see with it is that potassium sorbate doesn't stop an active fermentation. It inhibits yeast reproduction, sure, but since the yeast isn't reproducing at that state, it won't do a thing.

Yooper, since you're in this thread and it's on topic, why is it the standard practice to add K-sorbate AND K-meta to a finished wine? If the yeast are dead, they can't reproduce, so wouldn't it be simpler to add just the K-meta? Or am I missing out on some important chemistry here?

I was asked this in another thread and was stumped!

oldmate said:

Yooper, since you're in this thread and it's on topic, why is it the standard practice to add K-sorbate AND K-meta to a finished wine? If the yeast are dead, they can't reproduce, so wouldn't it be simpler to add just the K-meta? Or am I missing out on some important chemistry here?

I was asked this in another thread and was stumped!

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I would NEVER add sorbate to a finished wine! T'aint me that would suggest that. I can taste sorbate, and leave it out unless sweetening!

Yooper said:

I would NEVER add sorbate to a finished wine! T'aint me that would suggest that. I can taste sorbate, and leave it out unless sweetening!

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That's the point! Why would you need to add it when sweetening, when you could just add the K-meta? All I can think of is that there is an added level of security.

Also, does the sorbate taste dissipate?

to continue this thread hijack, (since i don't like the idea of adding fizzy water and bottling, i think you will be disappointed with the flat and flabby results) i need to stabilize a skeeter pee batch before sweetening, but i can't seem to find sorbate anywhere. i rarely sweeten my ciders, and when i do i bottle carb and pasteurize. are my wine bags going to go all hindenburg on me? where else can one find k sorbate if not at brewing supply?

You can find potassium sorbate here:

http://www.eckraus.com/index.php?action=search

They also have potassium metabisulfite and Campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite), to complement the potassium sorbate.

I'm by no means an expert, but the reasons why (as far as I know), either potassium or sodium metabisulfite are used with the potassium sorbate are, because you'd need a lot of metabisulfite if you wanted it to kill the yeast on its own, and using potassium sorbate alone would produce off flavors. So you use the sorbate to minimize the number of yeast cells (by hindering reproduction), and the metabisulfite to kill the remaining ones, and to neutralize the off flavors produced by the sorbate.

thanks but that's on the wrong continent

dinnerstick said:

thanks but that's on the wrong continent

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Hi dinnerstick, you're in IoM right? Any UK Homebrew shop should have it, for example http://www.brewsmarter.co.uk or http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk

no sir i am below sea level between belgium and germany!! i will end up ordering from a uk brewing supplier since i just can't find one here that sells it. cheers

bkorver said:

I've got a one gallon carboy fermenting some pure apple juice at present. I put about two cups of sugar in with it and expect it will end up at around 8 to 10 abv. I really don't have a plan for when it is done fermenting and came up with a crazy idea. I was thinking about dropping some potassium sorbate in to stop fermentation, add some apple extract to get an apple bite (I imagine it will be quite bitter if I don't) and mixing it with carbonated water at bottling ( 1. to tone it down a bit and 2. to give it a hint of carbonation) Has anyone tried this or have any ideas why this might not work? Any input is appreciated...

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It'll be easier to let it ferment out, back-sweeten with some more apple juice and then pasteurize it. There's a sticky about pasteurization. If you want carbonation, wait a few days before you pasteurize.

dinnerstick said:

no sir i am below sea level between belgium and germany!! i will end up ordering from a uk brewing supplier since i just can't find one here that sells it. cheers

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U bent van harte welkom. Sorry, can't see your location on the mobile app. It's available on eBay, and most European vendors will ship within the EU for a reasonable price.

Ravenshead said:

It'll be easier to let it ferment out, back-sweeten with some more apple juice and then pasteurize it. There's a sticky about pasteurization. If you want carbonation, wait a few days before you pasteurize.

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i agree, this is tried and tested, but do study up before you embark

beereagle: cheers for the links and use of odd germanic tongues
en veel plezier in de tuin van engeland!!

Concur, if you're carbonating there is a risk of bottle bombs here.

I'll be doing my first attempt in the next month or so as my latest cider ferments out. I've made dry, sparkling ciders and I've made sweet, still ciders. This will be my first attempt at a sweet, sparkling cider.

Don't worry, just because I haven't done this yet doesn't mean others haven't. Check the sticky.

oldmate said:

Yooper, since you're in this thread and it's on topic, why is it the standard practice to add K-sorbate AND K-meta to a finished wine? If the yeast are dead, they can't reproduce, so wouldn't it be simpler to add just the K-meta? Or am I missing out on some important chemistry here?

I was asked this in another thread and was stumped!

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But that's the point- the yeast aren't dead. Unless you froze or boiled the wine, the yeast are alive and well. They go dormant when they don't have food, but once you feed them, they'll start up again.

The wine is racked off of any sediment (lees) and must be perfectly clear. There is still yeast in suspension, of course, but it's less after the wine is clear and no longer dropping lees.

The sorbate doesn't kill yeast, but it inhibits yeast reproduction. The sorbate works better in the presence of sulfites, so that's why they are both used. Neither kill yeast, of course.

So, if you have a wine that is clear and finished and wish to sweeten, you rack into the sorbate/sulfite mixture. Again, there are yeast still in suspension but not enough to ferment the wine you will sweeten. They must reproduce, and that's where sorbate is effective. It inhibits yeast reproduction, so that in a few days when you sweeten, there will not be fermentation going on. This works most of the time, IF a) fermentation was finished, b) the wine is perfectly clear (not much yeast in suspension), c) the wine is racked off of any less, and d) the sorbate is added with sulfites and in a significant enough dose to inhibit yeast reproduction. Rushing this process will mean bottle bombs at the worst, pushed out corks at the least.

Yooper said:

The sorbate works better in the presence of sulfites, so that's why they are both used. Neither kill yeast, of course.

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That's the answer I was looking for. I was under the impression that sulfites were able to kill off the live yeast which would render the sorbate ineffective.