Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.

Results are only viewable after voting.
WortMonger said:
What's the latest on your brews fellas? How did everything turn out and how fast?
Click to expand...

Great! Just did a traditional English IPA (with dry hopping) in a corny. I'm probably twelve batches in and I see no reason to go back. I've been using a mass flow controller to automate and measure, which has been fun too!

Thanks for your work on this WortMonger! :mug:
 
First and foremost, props to Wortmonger. It took me days to get through this thread. I am amazed by the positive comments that abound through all one hundred some pages. I have never seen a thread, of any kind anywhere, with so much enthusiasm and lack of rants anywhere. The energy here, all focused on a common goal of great beer, is just awesome! The ingenuity, ideas, and more than anything, positive reinforcement is just touching. (no, I'm not crying nor am I drunk... A little buzzed? Yes)

As for myself, I built three spunding valves and plan to start this once I get a couple more couplers and kegs. Exciting! Keep up the good work!
 
Thanks, your response is exactly how I wanted the thread to be taken and continued. I am just so happy it is still going on after the years, and seems to be well received by the majority. Keep up the information coming in guys. We want even more people to try this and contribute to our knowledge-base.
 
MalFet said:
Great! Just did a traditional English IPA (with dry hopping) in a corny. I'm probably twelve batches in and I see no reason to go back. I've been using a mass flow controller to automate and measure, which has been fun too!

Thanks for your work on this WortMonger! :mug:
Click to expand...

Tell us more about the mass flow controller please, we want to know more about all the gadgets being used.
 
WortMonger said:
Tell us more about the mass flow controller please, we want to know more about all the gadgets being used.
Click to expand...

Of course!

It's a relatively simple device, and with a bit of vigilance you can get them used on eBay for less than $100. It's a gas flow meter tied to a proportional valve that allows you to precisely control the rate at which gas flows out of a system. If you pair it up with a pressure sensor and a controller of some sort, it works exactly like a spunding valve.

Definitely an over-engineered solution, and I'd only recommend it for people who like playing with this stuff. But, there are a couple of interesting perks:

1) By watching the rate of gas flow, you can see when exactly the fermentation starts slowing down and when it stops. My only regret in moving to pressurized fermentations is that I miss watching the bubbles in the airlock. This is a nice (and more precise) proxy for that.

2) With a bit of programming, you can automate the process. After I pitch my yeast, I pressurize my corny to a few PSI with oxygen to make sure the lid has seated properly. Then, I let it rise to 5 PSI once fermentation has started and vent the excess. But, once the fermentation starts slowing down, my fermentor controller automatically raises the temperature a couple of degrees and ramps the pressure up to whatever my carbonation target is.

3) I'm just starting to play around with this, but in theory it should be possible to calculate a beer's current gravity by tracking the total CO2 released. There are a few assumptions that go into math (the same ones used to estimate ABV from gravity readings), and I'm still looking at the data to see if this will work reliably. Initial results are promising though!
 
OMG that is the stuff we need to read about and see pictures of here! Too cool! Now I have to go research all the crud you just talked about to see if I need it too, :p
 
WortMonger said:
OMG that is the stuff we need to read about and see pictures of here! Too cool! Now I have to go research all the crud you just talked about to see if I need it too, :p
Click to expand...

I'm going to do a full write-up once I get all the rough edges sanded off. In the meantime, I'm happy to answer any questions I can!
 
hi, awesome thread. i haven't even read a fraction of it yet, hopefully i will find the time soon. it's a bit odd sticking my project right after malfet's awesome write-up about calculating fermentation based on co2 output, but here goes. i'm looking for suggestions / critique. i have never done a pressurized ferment. my father and i were recently making a stand-alone peltier based temp control for fermenting in cornys (which looks horrific but works a treat):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-ugly-peltier-temp-control-junk-350722/
and i mentioned making a spunding valve. he can't resist a challenge, and has a metal/plastic lathe, so he made this thing out of the existing pressure relief valve of a corny lid. it uses the existing plug and spring, with a metal collar to loosen the tension on the spring, all encased in a plastic collar that screws into the corny lid, and then has a screw that adjusts the tension of the spring. i tested it once on a pressurized keg, i could dial down to a set PSI, release the pressure, and when i re-pressurized it, it would return to the same psi. is this gonna work?? i also have a pressure gauge permanently fixed to a keg post, so i would ferment with the 'out' dip tube in place and the pressure gauge on the 'in' post. i guess that after cold crashing i would have to release pressure and swap out the pressure valve post for a regular in post for pushing the beer to the serving keg? not sure yet... if anyone has knocked together something similar could someone please point me in the right direction? i hate to post without first reading the whole thread but i don't have the time at the moment! and thanks in advance for any suggestions, or if you predict any problems or snags. (all photos f/1.8)

DSC_9176.jpg


DSC_9178.jpg


DSC_9179.jpg


DSC_9180.jpg


DSC_9181.jpg
 
Nice DIY work! For your pressure gauge, you could connect it via a short piece of tubing to a regular Corney quick connect, that way you wouldn't have do any hardware reconfiguration when it's time to dispense.
 
Yep, gas is gas no matter the direction it is flowing. The gauge would not interfere with incoming CO2 and would even be neat to have right there in the keg during transfer.
 
spundify!

now i just hope if fits in my little fridge with the gauge on so i can cool it and have it reach cold equilibrium before i have to remove that gauge! minor design oversight but never mind

spundage.jpg
 
dinnerstick said:
spundify!

now i just hope if fits in my little fridge with the gauge on so i can cool it and have it reach cold equilibrium before i have to remove that gauge! minor design oversight but never mind
Click to expand...

That is a slick little sounding valve. I built mine along with the pressure gauge onto a gas disconnect. It sets it off nearly horizontal. If you run out of headroom that's another option. It also is immediately swappable to another keg if needed.
 
Hi,
I tried to read through most of this...not in order, sorry :)

I am wanting to try this process....
If I planned to brew up about, say 9 gallons in the fermenter, left some trub in the boil kettle and put 4.25 gallons each corny would that work?

How high does Krausen get in a corny with out fermcap?

thanks Kevin
 
haeffnkr said:
Hi,
I tried to read through most of this...not in order, sorry :)

I am wanting to try this process....
If I planned to brew up about, say 9 gallons in the fermenter, left some trub in the boil kettle and put 4.25 gallons each corny would that work?

How high does Krausen get in a corny with out fermcap?

thanks Kevin
Click to expand...

It depends significantly on yeast strain, fermentation temperature, and OG. I fill up to the weld line, which is right around 5 gallons, and end up only with a few ounces of blow off, but that's with Fermcap.

The best thing to do is to build a water trap using a water-filter housing, and to set that up between your corny and your spunding valve. That way, you catch the blow-off without clogging your valve. Saves a lot of headache :mug:
 
Can you post a pic of the water trap set up?


I like that idea better than using a blowoff set up.
 
haeffnkr said:
Hi,
I tried to read through most of this...not in order, sorry :)

I am wanting to try this process....
If I planned to brew up about, say 9 gallons in the fermenter, left some trub in the boil kettle and put 4.25 gallons each corny would that work?

How high does Krausen get in a corny with out fermcap?

thanks Kevin
Click to expand...

To me the easiest way, if you have the room in your fermenting area, is to use a third keg, connect from the gas out of both main kegs to the third keg liquid using a Y connection or could do it in series as well. Then fit your pressure regulator to the gas outlet of your third keg. Then you don't have to worry about overflow and you could do the whole 10+ gallons. Hope this helps, it has been mentioned before, and it works for me! One precaution I have found with this is that you don't want much trub or esp. dry hopping as it can/will in the case of the dry hopping clog the small openings in your connections quite easily if you have much in the way of hop solids. Keep an eye on the system to ensure all is flowing well by using clear hoses.
 
I can't wait to use my new cropper trap spunding valve this weekend! I bought a water filter housing especially for this application. I hope it works first to catch the stuff that normally gunned up my SV, and secondly to catch some highly active yeast for future batches. I have never used top cropped yeast before.
 
Well, I had my 1st bad experience doing this Thursday. It was my fault but I wanted to share this so folks understand that there is the potential for disaster of the worst kind. Thankfully all I lost was a batch of beer.

I had a brew party last Saturday for Oktoberfest. I had 2 1/2bbls that we drank about 1/2 of each for the party. At the party I made 2 batches of beer. I got the yeast pitched 36 hours later because the starter got made a bit late and needed to crash cool. no big deal. I own 2 "spunding valves" and got 1 on the big batch but needed the other one to transfer the beer from the 1/2 full 1/2bbls into 1/4bbls so they would fit into my kegerator, which I did that afternoon.

Well, I spaced out and things got away from me. I did not get the valve on the 2nd keg that evening. I saw this was the case the next morning and the day got the better of me again and so I got the valve all cleaned and sanitized and went to attach it that afternoon. I barley applied the handle down on the coupler when a "PFFT!" that was deafeningly loud went off. The pressure blew the picnic tap wide open, the pressure release valve on the coupler and the spunding valve in under 1 nano second. (Please note I did not have the couple engaged completely, thank the brew gods for that.)

The cat went 3 feet straight up from a dead sleep and I about pissed myself. I started to "pump" the coupler handle with the the picnic tap in a bucket to attempt to release some of the pressure. 3 buckets of foam later and the keg was 1/2 empty and the pressure issue was not noticeably better. I grabbed the 1/4bbl and took into the bathroom to "vent" it into the tub. By the time I got the coupler to engage enough to use the pressure relief valve on said coupler I had about 2 quarts left in the keg of foamy "stuff".

I lost a batch of beer and no one was injured but I estimate that the pressure in the keg was about 50psi which is what the kegs are rated for. Thank the brew gods that most ratings in the US are conservative and the keg did not rupture. I literally had a pressure bomb in my house that feasibly would have ruptured with a force that is greater than what people may be able to conceive.

Learn from my mistake. If you do/can not immediately attach the spunding valve DO NOT PITCH THE YEAST!
 
Yeah I would say the pressure will go through the roof in short order if not vented. Fortunately for me I have a relief valve on the Brewhemoth. Is there none on your setup? Its a good idea just in case the spunding valve gets clogged. Glad you weren't hurt.
 
Well I got back on the saddle after over a years hiatus and it went smooth. Brown beer and a healthy starter meant lift-off before I awoke the next morning... And about 20 psi. Oops, guess I forgot what pressures vs the numbers on my spunding valve. Next time I'm going full open until I wake up. The cropper/spunding setup (10" water filter housing sans water filter) worked great. While relieving the initial pressure I had to clean it out and re-sanitize 3-4 times, but after that it looks to be working a dream. Wlp007 is a beast. I have the fermentation freezer set at 64 and it is ripping through the wort like it has a license to kill!

I was going to let it ride at 10 psi until day three and then crank up to carbonation pressure along with a 4-day rise to 70*F. I might need to do this after day 2 as fast as the yeast is going. There is nothing sluggish about 007 @ 64*F apparently. What do you guys think that have used this yeast before? This is a first for me.
 
WortMonger said:
Wlp007 is a beast. I have the fermentation freezer set at 64 and it is ripping through the wort like it has a license to kill!
QUOTE]

I used WLP 007 on an Oatmeal Stout just this summer. I brewed 10.25 gallons in a 15.3 keg, piched two vials straight from the cold storage at constant 70 degrees. Piched around 5PM, the next morning I had wort sprayed all over the side of the fridge but with no liquid accumulation, the VPR was still hissing full bore. This was a surprise as blow over shouldn't have been a problem with 5 gal of overhead space. Hit my target SG on the third day! Turned out great, made great beer. Would use it again.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I went ahead an ramped the temp up to 70*F and the pressure up to 20 psi for wanted volumes of carbonation. I fear there is not enough left to carbonate with it went so fast. We'll see when I get home today. This beer is going to crash to 35*F as soon as Saturday morning. Should be nice and clean by then, both what the yeast needed to eat up and then for them to go to sleep.
 
I took my time and waited a full seven days after my SF was hit as I have come to the conclusion that this technique takes a while for the yeast to clean up.I have rushed it and have had some batches with diacetyl tastes. I have been giving extra time and have been getting better results. I haven't done a search, but am I alone in that assumption?
 
Kirbuno said:
I took my time and waited a full seven days after my SF was hit as I have come to the conclusion that this technique takes a while for the yeast to clean up.I have rushed it and have had some batches with diacetyl tastes. I have been giving extra time and have been getting better results. I haven't done a search, but am I alone in that assumption?
Click to expand...

What is your technique? Are you raising the temperature with the pressure?
 
Just made a octoberfest ale on 9/25 brought to wedding on 10/6. 10 days old. Was a hit all 5 gals gone in 4 hours with about 15 people drinking it. Pressures were 30 to 50 psi for the first. 4 to 6 days at 65 to 68 degrees. Used second cornie for blow off. Wad a good beer. Should have made 5 gals!
 
30 to 50 psi for the start, wow! My new regiment when I can remember to set the valve right is 0 psi until it starts producing CO2, then up to 10 until the majority of gravity is gone. Then I up the temperature and pressure in retrospect for carbonation while cleaning up the diacetyl. Then cold crash and see if my pressure drops like it should and vent any excess carbonation then. Last a counter-pressure transfer into a clean/sanitized/CO2 purged keg for serving and roll it to the kegerator.
 
dstar26t said:
What is your technique? Are you raising the temperature with the pressure?
Click to expand...

Depending on the yeast I tend to keep the temps up to around 68 to 70 during the whole process now. I used to start colder but talked to a local microbrewer who said they get their award winning brews by keeping the yeast happy and warmer to get less stress and more healthy yeast. So I have been following that course the last 6 months or so. As for pressure, when I started this process a little over a year and a half ago I started at 10 and tried to finish at 20psi or higher. I found though that I was having a hard time hitting my FG. WortMonger just posted after you and funny enough hit my current practice on the nose, except that I don't raise the temp as I am already at or around 70 deg.
I quote:
"My new regiment when I can remember to set the valve right is 0 psi until it starts producing CO2, then up to 10 until the majority of gravity is gone. Then I up the temperature and pressure in retrospect for carbonation while cleaning up the diacetyl. Then cold crash and see if my pressure drops like it should and vent any excess carbonation then. Last a counter-pressure transfer into a clean/sanitized/CO2 purged keg for serving and roll it to the kegerator. "
 
"WortMonger;4486813]Have you done any lagers at those temps or just ales?"

Should have been more specific on that, just ales. That's why I mentioned depending on the yeast. I am set up to do lagers but have not yet done it.
 
Ok, yesterday before I headed out to work I was at 65* and 12 psi. That's about what it looked like the night before. I got home and it had gone to 22 psi and up to 66*. I'm still there this morning and no smell of CO2. I think she's done. Going to sample tonight after work for diacetyl and final gravity, and if it looks good I'm crashing. I'm loving this yeast. Anyone know how we'll 007 washes? I'm going to scrub this cake, measure it out, and pitch what I need for my next batch. I'm thinking a English Pale Ale but with American hops, Columbus. As soon as my supplies are cleared out I will buy for appropriate styles and probably more big lagers like Helles and Bocks. Yum!
 
So my relief valve (mcmaster 99045K46) continues to leak intermittently despite multiple cleaning attempts.

Is there a consensus on the best valve or a list of recommended valves?


Cheers!
 
I have that same valve and it doesnt leak. I had a cheaper brass one when I first started using this technique and it sucked.
 
Well, my second batch off the same yeast went well. I made a blonde ale out of leftover ingredients and pitched the washed cake from the northern English brown. This time I had to wait until the next morning to pitch to drop the couple of more degrees in my fermentation freezer. The spunding cropper seemed to work perfectly from keeping anything out of the valve, actually this time there was nothing in it. I left the valve wide open until day 3 of primary and then closed it to build to around 10 psi. I checked gravity the next day and was below 1.020 on this 1.054 beer so I went for carbonation. The software says I should get to 1.013, but I don't think it really accurately counts the fact I mashed at 156*F for a chewy beer. So, I'm thinking my last gravity reading of 1.017 is pretty close to terminal gravity. Tasted the sample for diacetyl and there was none last night so I cold crashed. I will transfer his bad boy to a serving keg tomorrow after work. The last sample I pulled was crystal clear so I have no worries about clarity on this one. I gotta say again that wlp007 is a beast! I'm going to have to swap to lagers now though or find a way to heat my fermentor. Should have bought the dual stage ranco in hindsight.
 
I'm in my third (and fourth) batch using this method and liking it!

Two questions: how do you guys draw samples? If I pull from the liquid out in a sanke or corny all I get is yeast and trub. I assume that I wouldn't want to draw this all out right away?

Secondly, dry hopping. I like to dry hop for the last week in the primary, but at this point everything is quite pressurized. Not a problem to top off with CO2 after dumping the hops in, but is depressurizing/rupturing yeast a concern?

Thanks!
 

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