Should appellations be applied to beer?

There is no such thing as an American Bordeaux because Bordeaux is a region in France. The European Union has pushed hard for the concept of appellations- the idea that a product should be identified by its region. Suggesting that somehow the regional character means so much to the product that if you make it somewhere else, then it ought to go by a different name. Many artisan cheeses also have these rules.

I have heard people talking about beer claiming that a true Lambic can only be brewed in Belgium, or a true Hefeweizen can only be made in Germany. What do you think? Can an American call his beer a "Hefeweizen"? Or should he properly consider it to be an "American Hefeweizen" to distinguish it from the originals?

What is your opinion?


Personally, I think that appellations are a useful and valid thing so long as the tradition is alive and thriving in the area. I'm not talking about a handful of 200 year producers of the goods, I mean, so long as it is thriving, evolving, and changing within a society that places emphasis on the goods, then the appellation is good and valid... but when it becomes steady and the processes cease to vary over time, then the product can probably be produced just about anywhere and the appellation becomes meaningless. Agree? Disagree?

It matters I think only if that particular product's character can come only from a particular place. Cigars are an example due to different growing conditions in the soil and weather of different areas in which the tobaccos are grown and rolled. For beer it shouldn't matter since the yeasts and grains aren't necessarily tied to any particular area, especially considering lab-grown yeast strains.

Lambics might be an exception, for a "true" lambic made with traditional methods and no yeast additions depends on the particular yeasts and bacterias of the region that originally created them being in the air.

Consider, too, that the hefe I made last weekend used German pils and wheat malt, a yeast that I'm sure was originally cultivated from a German beer, and used a traditional German brewing method (decoction).

Plus, "American Hefeweizen" is already defined as something else - basically, a hefe without all the hefe flavors

Do we really want to follow the winemakers' path to uber-snobdom?

It already is. Lambic, Kolsh, & Trappest are all protected.

I guess I'm an uber-snob, but I find appelation distinction in wine regions helpful. I know that it takes a lot to learn, and this can be a barrier to some, but its nice to know if I want Bordeaux and it says Bordeaux its Bordeaux.
It is a harder idea with beer, and I think its a good idea for some styles( like those listed in previous posts) so long as it helps people know that their 'Belgian Lambic' is really from Belgium. At least beer will never be classified into 'growths' like Bordeaux that pretty much dictate price, or that futures will be sold and you'll get your beer 2 years after you pay for it. Although I think my Bordeaux's are worth it.
Also, this stuff really applies and should only be applied to commercial brewing right? Homebrew is hombrew. Everyone knows your lambic is not brewed in Beligium. And if it is, homebrew is homebrew. Call it what you want, and what will help people compare/understand/appreciate.

These appellations and protections are only as strong as people are willing to put up with them.

For most people it's (was) Candlestick Park.
It'll always be Lambeau field.
For most people all tissue is Kleenex.

By the same token a Kenosha Lambic seems silly.

But this is just people to people. The whole EU thing is fuct.

There's no reason Pamesan cheese has to be made in Parma. Do you know how many countries will lay claim to feta.

The French have banned the use of the English use of the word "email" for some Frenchified "correere electronique" or some crap like that.

I don't know about feta's origins, but I think you could pick real Parmigiano Reggiano out in a blind tasting all day long. Cheese is tough though because its hard to describe when selling, "aged hard cow's milk cheese" doesn't tell you much if you haven't tasted it. But call is parmesan, and people know what to expect. I think this is really tough subject. Why associate your product with Champagne? Why not just say 'sparkling wine'. The fact that most call every sparkler Champagne when its a sparkling wine doesn't make it right.

Buford said:

It matters I think only if that particular product's character can come only from a particular place. Cigars are an example due to different growing conditions in the soil and weather of different areas in which the tobaccos are grown and rolled. For beer it shouldn't matter since the yeasts and grains aren't necessarily tied to any particular area, especially considering lab-grown yeast strains.

Lambics might be an exception, for a "true" lambic made with traditional methods and no yeast additions depends on the particular yeasts and bacterias of the region that originally created them being in the air.

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So are you saying that the traditional methods matter? Or that it's all about the finished product?

If I make a desk, should I be able to call it Amish furniture if I perfectly replicated their style, but used power tools? Parma is a city. Can I make Parmesan cheese in Chicago? If I can, then why can't I make Amish furniture too?

If my Lambic tastes like a Lambic, why is it not a Lambic?

Should the term denote the product alone? or also the methods used to produce it? Can you buy a Philadelphia cheese steak in California?

Toot said:

Personally, I think that appellations are a useful and valid thing so long as the tradition is alive and thriving in the area. I'm not talking about a handful of 200 year producers of the goods, I mean, so long as it is thriving, evolving, and changing within a society that places emphasis on the goods, then the appellation is good and valid... but when it becomes steady and the processes cease to vary over time, then the product can probably be produced just about anywhere and the appellation becomes meaningless. Agree? Disagree?

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Disagree. Okay, first off, let me get this out of the way: the wine appellation system works in a way that it will never work for beer, unless breweries all start to grow their own grain, hops, and yeast. The idea behind appellations in wine is not simply in distinguishing a "thriving tradition" for a certain area. They are for distinguishing the terroir. In other words, grapes grown at Echezeaux cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world, even in a lab. It's not a tradition or a recipe, it's a natural phenomenon that takes into account the soils, the microclimate, etc. of that particular place on the planet. The appellation system was set up because it's pretty easy to defraud consumers when it comes to wine.

Now, apply these same principles to brewing. Doesn't really pan out, right? I mean, there are certain parts and pieces of beer that are unique to places, such as the water in Burton on Trent, or the wild yeasts in Belgium. But on the whole, there aren't really many, if any, brewers who grow all their own hops, yeast, barley and wheat on their own property. Beer is more of an expression of human invention and ingenuity than it is an expression of natural terroir, like wine is. This is why I've never had the urge to make home-brew wine. I can't fathom the idea of buying juice from someone else and fermenting it up. But that's another discussion; back to my point: basing an appellation system on natural terroir is relatively simplistic: you draw natural boundaries and label your wines as such. Basing an appellation system on your idea of "dynamic tradition" sounds problematic at best, spectacularly impossible at worst. A single brewery can make 30 different types of beer; where would these fall in this "tradition appellation" system? Would this begin to limit the types of beer certain breweries could make if they were located in certain places? France's wine law currently prohibits certain varietals from being grown in certain places; for instance, you don't see anyone growing Syrah in the Cote d'Or. Is this something we want for brewing, too? The Rheinhetsgebot was authoritarian enough...are we really in a position where we'd want some sort of governing body to start creating beer appellations based on someone's subjective definition of "local tradition"? And then enacting restrictive regulations based on those subjective definitions?

I just don't see any rational way of going about this, nor do I see any requirement for it. I've never had any instances where I've said, "Dang, I wish beer was divided into appellations". I've had beer from Portland, Maine and Portland, Oregon that tasted nearly identical; I've never had wine from Virginia that could ever be mistaken for one from Alsace.

EDIT: I also don't agree that once a tradition fails to evolve, it's no longer a tradition, at least in this sense. Many chateaux in France use the same techniques year-in and year-out, because it works the best for their place. They, and their ancestors before them, have been growing wine there for hundreds of years, and through the laborious process of experimentation, they've figured out what works best; as such, sticking with the same processes from year to year does not diminish the idea of tradition. The same would apply to beer. The Rheinhetsgebot hasn't changed, but it's still a german tradition.

Toot said:

So are you saying that the traditional methods matter? Or that it's all about the finished product?

If I make a desk, should I be able to call it Amish furniture if I perfectly replicated their style, but used power tools? Parma is a city. Can I make Parmesan cheese in Chicago? If I can, then why can't I make Amish furniture too?

If my Lambic tastes like a Lambic, why is it not a Lambic?

Should the term denote the product alone? or also the methods used to produce it? Can you buy a Philadelphia cheese steak in California?

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I think the difference is that in some cases the name isn't associated as much with the style as it is with simply the location it is made. If a particular item is a style that can be made elsewhere then I don't know that it matters where it comes from. Amish furniture I wouldn't think as being as much a style as named because it's furniture handmade by Amish folk.

I see no problem with Philly cheese steak being made anywhere else and still being called that, it's just that Philidelphia invented or popularized the style. There's nothing that prevents it from being made elsewhere.

With lambics, I think that anything that fits the taste definition of it should be called "lambic" as well, but only "true lambics" would come from the home area as only beers made in that region with the traditional method would produce the same result. Lambic-styled beers can be made elsewhere with lab-grown strains, but not by using the traditional method. "Lambic" is a style definition and anything that fits that style should get the name, but there is a distinction between the "real" thing and an interpretation in my mind. That might not make a whole lot of logical sense but it's how I have it partitioned in my head. It's a style but at the same time can only be produced in the area of origin if using the original methods.

Kolsch on the other hand can be made anywhere with the correct water, grain, hops, and yeast. There is nothing particular to the area or methods that can not be replicated elsewhere. Same with Dortmunder export.

Now there are exceptions - take "Trappist" as an example. Trappist I think is a valid use of the term as applied to the particular places it is made. Trappist beers are not a particular style - trappist breweries produce several different types of beers that are also made elsewhere. "Trappist" in this way does not define a style but instead defines the place where it is produced. I don't think Trappist should be applied except to the real thing, other beers are simply tripels, Belgian strong ales, etc.

A good brewery can duplicate any style accurately, which makes appellations meaningless.

Wines are 99% where the grape was grown and what the weather was like that year. When the stem is cut, that is as good as it will get and the best a winery can do is not wreck it. People who can really tell the difference know a wine down to the field and picking time. Appellations are for people that can't tell the difference and need to be reassured.

I stopped drinking wine in the '80s, because it was boring.

Belgian Lambic brewers have a tough enough time competing with other breweries. It takes two to three years for their beers to be ready for consumption. Whereas other beers are ready in a matter of months. The lambic breweries end up with a perpetual debt to their IRS equivalent because they owe the tax on their beer before their beer is ready for sale.

The lambic breweries that aren't going under because of competition with other breweries or debt to the government are dying out because the younger generations of their families don't want to take up the family business.

Let the Lambic brewers have their appellation. Open fermenter lambic brewing is the closest thing that exits to the more ancient ways of making beer. Nobody else does anything like it anymore. Show some respect for the history and tradition.

I believe the Kolsh appellation came around from a desire to protect the Kolsh breweries from being put out of business from the German BMC equivalents. Anything that keeps BMC beers from taking over the world has my support.

david_42 said:

Appellations are for people that can't tell the difference and need to be reassured.

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I think they're mainly to prevent wines like Carlo Rossi putting Burgundy on a gallon jug and people thinking its Pinot Noir from France. Eventhough they actually do this and people think, "What's all the fuss, this sucks!" They also give you a reference for what the wines of the area are typically like. Margaux - elegant,great nose; Paulliac - big, dense; St.Emillion -fruity, most likely mostly merlot; etc. I don't think we should make it harder on people who already buy based on cool labels to have some idea what's in the bottle without knowing every chateau in Bordeaux.
I do agree though that almost all of a wines quality comes from the vineyard. I make wine at a research vineyard and know that you can't make quality wine w/o quality grapes.

Since beer is so perishable, 99% of the world's population would never be able to taste a hefe in its prime if "hefe" was resticted to a particular region. As long as the various interpretations are reasonably true to the origin, why should it matter where it was brewed?

But wouldn't the world be boring if you could go to Disneyland in Europe? Or in Japan? I hate to say it, but I kind of feel like cultural diversity is a good thing and should be preserved. I'm not going go off as wacky as the French, but maybe there's a happy medium.

If I had to trek to Germany just to get a Hefeweizen, wouldn't that make it just that much more worth drinking?

Man, am I ever confused...you've actually hit upon MANY of my pet peeves on brews and styles and peoples perceptions and lack of intelligence on certain potent potables...

Toot: The world is really simple...an American Bordeaux...doesn't exist.

Lambics are Belgium NOT American.

Hefe Weizens are German NOT American...without the proper water and yeast it is just an American Wheat Beer. (Don't mix your languages for the sake of sales...)

feedthebear: True. Lambic, Kolsh, & Trappest are what they are. They cannot be made to, or taste like, the same standards in the US as they are in their country of origin.

Champagne, like Bordeaux, is a region with a long tradition and history. It cannot be duplicated and transported a quarter of the way around the world.

Buford: A Philly Cheesesteak in Cali DOES NOT taste like a Philly Cheesesteak in Philly or ANYWHERE in the rest of the world. (I know...I'm from So Jersey and I lived in So. Philly).

I agree that once a PRACTICE fails to evolve it becomes a tradition...but, it in fact the Reinheitsgebot has changed since 1516...several times.

Trappist Ales can only be brewed by monks...

Toot: Amish furniture should be made by the Amish, not in Hickory, NC, or it is not Amish furniture...

Sorry, David, but I don't think a good brewery can duplicate any style ACCURATELY (I can't. Can you?), making appellations meaningless...it can come close, but even the minutest (is that a word?) change in the chemical composition can not be duplicated. I disagree with your comment. It's just a generalization, not fact.

feedthe4bear: Exactly what BMC equivilents are you addressing? Have you ever been overseas? The closest I've ever come is OB in Korea, but nothing close to BMC in Germany. Belgium lambics do not have a difficult time competing with other brewers. They have a very small market. Most people don't like their brews. It IS that simple. If 15 other breweries were making lambics I could agree with you, but I can't here. Your take on this just doesn't follow logic.

landhoney: We all know that ANY wine that come in a gallon jug is not worth the price of the glass...

the_bird: It SHOULD matter WHERE a beer is brewed. If not you are paying full price for an IMITATION.

Toot: Forget Disneyland...GET YOUR ASS TO GERMANY!!!

Ahhhh, I feel better...NEXT!!!

HB : bleach?

See? I knew there was an argument in here somewhere.

homebrewer_99 said:

Champagne, like Bordeaux, is a region with a long tradition and history. It cannot be duplicated and transported a quarter of the way around the world.

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I think that I agree with david with rewspect to wine. I would also add that there are micro-climates on the west coast that not only duplicate, but also exceed those of France.

But that's not the issue being raised. The issue is whether any one has the right to use these names.

You know American Cheese is called Canadian Cheese in Canada. I don't think anyone is going to declare economic war over that one.

I'll remember that, Bill, next time you tell us about those hefeweizens you've been brewing.

I actually think Evan! pretty much nailed it.

the_bird said:

I'll remember that, Bill, next time you tell us about those hefeweizens you've been brewing.

I actually think Evan! pretty much nailed it.

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That's why I call it a German-style HW... ...emphasis on the "style".

So much for Faux-Bordeaux too...

dibby33 said:

HB : bleach?

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HAHA!!! No comment...

homebrewer_99 said:

Man, am I ever confused...you've actually hit upon MANY of my pet peeves on brews and styles and peoples perceptions and lack of intelligence on certain potent potables...

Toot: The world is really simple...an American Bordeaux...doesn't exist.

Lambics are Belgium NOT American.

Hefe Weizens are German NOT American...without the proper water and yeast it is just an American Wheat Beer. (Don't mix your languages for the sake of sales...)

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So what if I get a water analysis, adjust it to mimic the levels found in German tap water, and use a German strain of yeast (found readily in any LHBS) with German Pils and German Wheat?

Do I have a Hefeweizen or don't I?


What do I need to do? Hire a German guy named Hans to pitch the yeast? THEN will it be considered German?

Actually 99, I can duplicate certain beers at a level that people cannot tell them from the original and I know that I am using a different grain bill, hops AND yeast. As far as a craft brewer duplicating another brewery's beers, it's done all the time and called contract brewing.

Certainly, many of the European beers brewed in the USA are different from the originals, but always intentionally.

I've had "Chicago Style Hotdogs" in other states, and they're not the same.

I think you need to keep the label on the wine to protect the integrity. Can I buy some grapes from a store, declare my brewery name to be "Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild" and start selling wine for hundreds per bottle? Same with country regions. A Napa is a Napa, no matter where the vines originated.

Damn Squirrels said:

So what if I get a water analysis, adjust it to mimic the levels found in German tap water, and use a German strain of yeast (found readily in any LHBS) with German Pils and German Wheat?

Do I have a Hefeweizen or don't I?


What do I need to do? Hire a German guy named Hans to pitch the yeast? THEN will it be considered German?

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ROFL...That might just work...

david_42 said:

Actually 99, I can duplicate certain beers at a level that people cannot tell them from the original and I know that I am using a different grain bill, hops AND yeast. As far as a craft brewer duplicating another brewery's beers, it's done all the time and called contract brewing.

Certainly, many of the European beers brewed in the USA are different from the originals, but always intentionally.

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I can't argue that totally agree with you.

You, my friend, are a rare brewer...but you already knew that.

Cheesefood said:

I've had "Chicago Style Hotdogs" in other states, and they're not the same.

I think you need to keep the label on the wine to protect the integrity. Can I buy some grapes from a store, declare my brewery name to be "Chateau Lafitte-Rothschild" and start selling wine for hundreds per bottle? Same with country regions. A Napa is a Napa, no matter where the vines originated.

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Another excellent example.

Same goes with the seeds from Cuban cigars. Are they still Cuban cigars if they are grown elsewhere?

However....

If I buy a wine kit that has juice produced in the Bordeaux region, is it a Bordeaux?

homebrewer_99 said:

Same goes with the seeds from Cuban cigars. Are they still Cuban cigars if they are grown elsewhere?

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Again, though, it comes down to the point of Cuban cigars are Cuban cigars because of the soil, the weather, and all of the conditions that go into growing Cuban tobacco.

If you grew the tobacco in Cuban, imported it into Miami, and has a bunch of Cuban immigrants manufacture cigars using traditional techniques, would you be able to detect any difference?

Likewise, if our German buddy Kai is buying German malts, brew them using very traditional decoction techniques, using RO water than he then builds to match a particular profile appropriate and traditional for the style, then pitched a German yeast, does it REALLY matter that he's doing it in Massachusetts?

Let me be the first to declare an appellation for all beers brewed with the assistance of this particular website/forum.

It shall be called EAC.

And even if the same advice was given on the brewboard, it can never be as good as the beer brewed here because of their god-awful green colored tradition.

olllllo said:

Let me be the first to declare an appellation for all beers brewed with the assistance of this particular website/forum.

It shall be called EAC.

And even if the same advice was given on the brewboard, it can never be as good as the beer brewed here because of their god-awful green colored tradition.

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I concur...

the_bird said:

Again, though, it comes down to the point of Cuban cigars are Cuban cigars because of the soil, the weather, and all of the conditions that go into growing Cuban tobacco.

If you grew the tobacco in Cuban, imported it into Miami, and has a bunch of Cuban immigrants manufacture cigars using traditional techniques, would you be able to detect any difference?

Likewise, if our German buddy Kai is buying German malts, brew them using very traditional decoction techniques, using RO water than he then builds to match a particular profile appropriate and traditional for the style, then pitched a German yeast, does it REALLY matter that he's doing it in Massachusetts?

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It doesn't matter to me...but what's it called? I thought that was part of this whole debate...what and why things are called a particular this or that...

You can continue calling anything whatever you'd (collective plural) like. It's none of my business. These past comments are only OUR opinions in the end.

homebrewer_99 said:

It doesn't matter to me...but what's it called? I thought that was part of this whole debate...what and why things are called a particular this or that...

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Pick up the sixer, look at the brewery's address, which is listed on every sixpack holder and every bottle. Is that not enough?

Again, appellations for beer make no sense. There aren't the same geographical and meteorological distinctions as there are in wine. One can make great beer anywhere, so...there's really no point (outside of rare exceptions like Belgian lambics) in making geological distinctions with labeling. Just put your address on the bottle and you're done. On the other hand, great wine cannot be grown anywhere. As such, the geographical places where grapes are grown need legal distinction. One can make a stout anywhere; one cannot make a Domaine la Romanee Conti anywhere. So why do I care what you "call" a beer from Massachusetts? I don't. You call it a stout, you put a name on your brewery. That name is your individual "appellation", in a way, and it is protected by trademark law.

Where beer is made doesn't (in most cases) matter; who makes it does...and the "who" is a protected entity already. When I see "Dogfish Head" on the shelf, I know that it was made by Dogfish Head, just like when I see Cos d'Estournel on the shelf, I know it was grown in St. Estephe, in Bordeaux.

Brewery names are beer's appellation system, in other words.

HB99, I spent 5 years at Ramstein, thank you very much. By BMC equivalents, I mean the big breweries that make a practice of driving all the local breweries out of business. Thus destroying beers with local character in favor of some generic mass marketed beer.

Becks, Bitburger, and Lowenbrau are the the ones I'm most familiar with. There are three or four others of considerable size.

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/kolnbrew.htm
The Kolsch Convention was inspired by the attemps of outside (of the Cologne region) to cash in on the popularity of Kolsh.

feedthebear said:

HB99, I spent 5 years at Ramstein, thank you very much. By BMC equivalents, I mean the big breweries that make a practice of driving all the local breweries out of business. Thus destroying beers with local character in favor of some generic mass marketed beer.

Becks, Bitburger, and Lowenbrau are the the ones I'm most familiar with. There are three or four others of considerable size.

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/kolnbrew.htm
The Kolsch Convention was inspired by the attemps of outside (of the Cologne region) to cash in on the popularity of Kolsh.

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Well, it encouraging to know that you have some knowledge of German brewing tradition in your system.

Surely do like the local traditions and styles they have to offer.

Seems that when it comes to the States everyone wants to be global...