Can I not taste diacetyl?

A while back, I did a last minute entry to a homebrew competition. Total turn around time was 6 days (5 days in primary, overnight cold crash, force carbed and bottled from keg) with another week in the bottle before the tasting. Before you jump all over me, I know that's an ultra-short time, but when I tasted it on day 5, I thought I could get away with it. I tried it again on the day of the competition from an extra bottle I kept to make sure I was tasting the same thing as the judges. Still seemed OK, but not award winning.

However, when I finally got my score sheets back, both judges scored it identically (25 pts) and had nearly identical comments. "Buttery aroma," "slight slickness in mouthfeel," "buttery finish." Now I know that all I need to do to fix this is let it ferment a little longer, but I'm more disturbed by my inability to detect the diacetyl. I got a little of the slickness they mentioned, but didn't taste or smell butter at all. Is it possible that I'm "taste blind" when it comes to diacetyl? I've tasted it before in beers that were really out of control, but obviously, my detection level is far higher than the judges'. Any thoughts?

Anything is possible, but I think it is more likely that you ate, drank, or smoked something that didn't allow you to pick up the taste. It could also be a matter of experience. I wasn't 100% sure what diacetyl tasted like until I did a off flavors kit with my homebrew club.

Individual thresholds for diacetyl vary wildly. So, yes. I would find a friend that is sensitive to it.

What does microwave popcorn (butter flavor) smell like to you?

The BJCP guideline has advice for using store bought imitation butter extract (which should be diacetyl in ethanol roughly). Get a few friends and dose some beer with maybe a quarter of what they recommend, see if anyone can taste it, then half, then what they recommend, then double. Keep going until you taste it. See how you compare to the other guys.

FYI, and I'm not saying this is you, but some people genetically can't taste diacetyl. Not sure what % of the population it is, but I do know that there are some people who could get hit in the face with a Mac Truck dosing of the stuff and not taste it at all. Since you said you have tasted it before, you probably just haven't trained your palate enough to pick it up at lower levels. Get some Red Stripe. It's textbook for low (but still too much for the style) diacetyl levels.

Don't let it get you down. Even those of us who brew consistently good beer and win a lot of awards still have the big D creep in every once in a while. My IIPA just fell victim to it. I think in part because it was my own beer I swore it wasn't there. Beers are like kids sometimes, we don't always see the flaws of our own even when we are very experienced judges (I'm BJCP National). When it got killed with 20s at a recent competition I popped a bottle and grudgingly admitted my fellow judges were correct.

Good suggestions guys. Don't get me wrong, I'm actually quite happy with a 25 for a beer I did in under a week, just confused. I'll have to grab a sixer of Red Stripe and see if I get anything from that.

Many people can't taste everything that's possible, or really have to study to be able to note a particular flavor. That is one reason I started sending my beer in to competitions. I wasn't confident that my tastes were up to standard.

Honestly, I have a hard time TASTING garlic. I can smell it ok, but when it comes to taste, I get a slight saltiness, and not much else. I hear others complain about something being "too garlicky!" and I'm just not getting it.

I sat across from a National judge that told me, "If you taste diacetyl, let me know. I've been doing this for 20 years, and I just can't get it."

So yes, it is very possible that your palate is blind to it, or that your threshold is high.

I can't taste diacetyl either. I just figure that I can enjoy beers that others can't, they still taste good to me.

Homercidal said:

Honestly, I have a hard time TASTING garlic. I can smell it ok, but when it comes to taste, I get a slight saltiness, and not much else. I hear others complain about something being "too garlicky!" and I'm just not getting it.

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You must be Italian. To me personally there can't be such a thing as 'too garlicky'. My wife gets mad at me when I make pizza and throw half a bulb of garlic in the sauce. I love it. I do smell it in my pores the next day thought, and that is a little gross.

Often times I will detect diacetyl as a slick mouthfeel before I taste it.

Did you keep your bottle cold the whole week or did you let it warm up? Was the beer you submitted shipped?

If the entries warmed up and yours didn't, that could explain why there was more of a diacetyl presence at the comp. The pre-cursors were in both beers, but you bottle may not have experienced the same conditions as your entries.

-chuck

kpr121 said:

You must be Italian. To me personally there can't be such a thing as 'too garlicky'. My wife gets mad at me when I make pizza and throw half a bulb of garlic in the sauce. I love it. I do smell it in my pores the next day thought, and that is a little gross.

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Mostly German. But it's not like I ENJOY the taste of garlic, I just can't seem to taste it much. But I can smell it when I cut it and saute it.

I attended one of those "taste seminars" last year and the first sample they gave was Green Apple. I got that one. Pretty much missed the rest. The guy doing the whole thing thought that was pretty neat because they handed out the first one because it was usually the hardest to pick out, and they didn't want it going later when your tastes are usually overwhelmed. But it was the only one I definitely tasted.

He said to just keep trying. Even if it's just at home or at the bar with a beer. Really concentrate on the flavors. And try to hit some more sensory eval tastings until you start getting it.

If you can't taste diacetyl you're lucky overall, IMO. I can't tell you how many beers, commercial and homebrew, I've disliked because of that flavor.

twigboy2000 above is correct. Beer can have diacetyl precursors in it that can be converted to diacetyl as a result of oxidation. You probably picked up some oxygen at bottling.

Your beer may have had unperceivable diacetyl precursors in it when you tasted it that did not convert to diacetyl until it was put in the bottle and reached the judges.

I am in a tasting panel of beer for work, and we go through the adjusted beer tastings all the time, and there are a few off flavors that I can not get at all. DMS, nope. Plastic, don't get it unless it is super concentrated. But there are others that I can pick up without a problem that others don't get so easy. I think everyone has a tollerance to certain things, and diacetyle is yours.

twigboy2000 said:

Did you keep your bottle cold the whole week or did you let it warm up? Was the beer you submitted shipped?

If the entries warmed up and yours didn't, that could explain why there was more of a diacetyl presence at the comp. The pre-cursors were in both beers, but you bottle may not have experienced the same conditions as your entries.

-chuck

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I guess this could be a possibility, too. It was a local competition, so I brought them to the brewpub that was hosting while they were still cold. However, I have no idea if they put 'em in the cooler, or just threw 'em in the back of the kitchen.

Try a Rolling Rock, if you don't get diacetyl in one of those at around 50F then you're a lucky man!

wyzazz said:

Try a Rolling Rock, if you don't get diacetyl in one of those at around 50F then you're a lucky man!

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How about a Newcastle, to me all I taste is diacetyl

bovineblitz said:

How about a Newcastle, to me all I taste is diacetyl

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Diacetyl mixed with skunkiness.

bovineblitz said:

How about a Newcastle, to me all I taste is diacetyl

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Really? Maybe I can't taste it either

Here's something a brewer taught me that might helps you taste diacetyl.

Make a wort about 1.040 to 1.050. Keep the IBU/SG ratio down to about 0.25 to 0.3.

Get a yeast like Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) that likes it fairly cool. Spilt the yeast into 3 to 5 batches, after pitching the yeast. Ferment one at 62F, one at 70F, and one at 78F ect... After it's fermented, bottled/kegged and carbed, chill the beer and sample side by side.

It works real well. It's just takes time.

wyzazz said:

Try a Rolling Rock, if you don't get diacetyl in one of those at around 50F then you're a lucky man!

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DMS, yes, but diacetyl?

Reviving an old thread here but my query relates to it.

I just brewed a hybrid lager. A Munich Helles with WLP029. Mostly Pilsner, a little munich, acidulated malt to get pH down and 2oz Melenoiden malt. 5.5 gallon batch.

(brulosopher's recipe) 90 min boil. Ferment at 58F initially then ramped to 68F to complete desired attenuation.

I followed the fast lagering process and it was grain to glass in 3 weeks.

Couple of weeks in the keg and I think I am getting an oily mouthfeel. I don't taste butter but the slick feeling is distinct and I think it's getting more obvious.

OG 1.048 FG 1.010

Is this history consistent with it being diacetyl?

I cant see red (or green!), maybe you cant taste diacetyl...

I brew an awsome grey ale! Smooth and delicious!