Brett vs lacto

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chip82

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Hey guys,

I am looking at starting to sour some beers. I am unsure if I want to use lacto or Brett. Can you recommend me a few good commercial examples of each? Maybe some straight Brett, straight lacto, and a mix

Thanks,
Chip
 
I think it's pretty hard to find all-brett and, especially, all-lacto beers. You're in South Dakota?

If you were near Denver, you could stop into Crooked Stave to find all-brett beers. I know of Ithaca in New York that has done some all-brett beers, too.

If you were in my neck of the woods, you could stop into The Bruery and taste their Hottenroth, which is pretty close to all-lacto (though I've read that it does contain a small amount of brett).

In general, though, no matter where you are, you're going to have a hard time finding these beers. Keep in mind brett, used independently, won't produce a "sour" beer - my all-brett ales come out pretty damn clean, and fruity. Also, some have found that all-lacto beers don't produce the type of sourness they are looking for.

For me, I started with all-brett beers... a pale ale, an IPA, a golden ale (which was racked to secondary with some bacteria). This weekend, I'm trying my hand at a small all-lacto beer. Start experimenting and see what you like.
 
If by all lacto, you mean no yeast at all, then I dont know of commercial examples.

If you mean a sach beer that uses lacto for sourness, I'm pretty sure Bell's Oarsman is a commercial example. From what I understand they basically do a sour mash and then blend to taste.

I don't know how far they distribute the oarsman. I'm only 45 minutes from the brewery so it's readily available around here.
 
Just make some all-brett beers. You can make any style. I think it goes well with simple Saison type recipes. On it's own it works similar to sacc. No long ferments.

Lacto is a little more different. Berliner-Weisse beers are lacto/sacc beers. If you make one, no matter what source of lacto you use, make sure you sour the wort before adding the sacc. That could be several days. I leave mine 5 days. Once the wort becomes acidic, it has protection from other bugs. Most lacto don't like hops, so ensure you keep hops low. I have used Lactobacillus Acidopohilus (probiotic) to sour wort and have learn't from experience that it doesn't like any hops; If the wort has any hops, it will not sour.
 
I have used Lactobacillus Acidopohilus (probiotic) to sour wort and have learn't from experience that it doesn't like any hops; If the wort has any hops, it will not sour.

The preservative qualities of hops would probably interfere. I soured a mini-mash and added it to the wort in my brew kettle. It came out quite good with a nice refreshing twang. I will definitely make it again this spring to save as a summer refresher. I've never used Brett, but I did pick up a Brett fermented ale called Brux just the other day. I haven't cracked it open yet, but plan on doing it during the holidays. I had one yesterday that I think was both lactic and brett. It was a Flanders Brown Ale. I've liked some, but the one I had yesterday was so sweet that it was almost uncomfortable to drink so I had a hard time breaking down the flavors.
 
Brux is phenomenal. Keep on mind it is fermented with a Belgian yeast and only conditioned with Brett, so the Brett flavors are subtle. But very good nonetheless.

From the homebrewtalk wiki page:

The flavor contributed by Brettanomyces is often called barnyard, but has also been described as gamy, or as smelling like damp wool, leather, wet fur, a sweaty saddle or horse blanket, or a butcher

Lactobacillus produces a sharp, clean sour flavor that pairs perfectly with the simple malt bill and low hop profile and contributes a refreshing lemony tartness.

Keep in mind there are different styles of Brett and lacto, I would recommend checking out White Labs or Wyeast for more details.
 
I inoculated my mini-mash with lacto from about a cup of raw grain in a grain sack--the bateria is already present on the grain. I immersed it in the cooled wort for about twenty minutes, removed and let it run.
 
both of those are mixed cultures, so if the OP was looking to work with exclusively either lacto or brett, I wouldn't recommend either of those.

Yeah you want to try the following:

WLP644 Brettanomyces bruxellensis trois (fruity)
WLP645 Brettanomyces claussenii (low intensity)
WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis (traditional barnyard flavors)
Wyeast 5112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis
WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus (traditional mixed with slight tartness)
Wyeast 5526 Brettanomyces lambicus

WLP677 Lactobacillus Bacteria
Wyeast 5335*Lactobacillus
 
The flavor contributed by Brettanomyces is often called barnyard, but has also been described as gamy, or as smelling like damp wool, leather, wet fur, a sweaty saddle or horse blanket, or a butcher

I am relatively new to sour beers, but have been trying them for the past year and have two attempts in secondary ferment..... but for the life of me, I just cannot get past the above description. I always see it in relation to brett, and it is beyond me how any of those things could ever be perceived as desirable in any beverage......ever.
Mmmmmmmm your beer is so good - it tastes like gamy, sweaty, wet, horse. Please pour me another:)

For me that pretty much steers towards more of lacto, than brett flavors I am looking for. I have used the Roeselare blend in both of the ones I did. Figured I would use the "shotgun" approach as a beginner.
 
Braufessor said:
I am relatively new to sour beers, but have been trying them for the past year and have two attempts in secondary ferment..... but for the life of me, I just cannot get past the above description. I always see it in relation to brett, and it is beyond me how any of those things could ever be perceived as desirable in any beverage......ever.
Mmmmmmmm your beer is so good - it tastes like gamy, sweaty, wet, horse. Please pour me another:)

For me that pretty much steers towards more of lacto, than brett flavors I am looking for. I have used the Roeselare blend in both of the ones I did. Figured I would use the "shotgun" approach as a beginner.

Don't get scared off by people using tired old descriptors for Brett beer. 'Horseblanket' is just a term, very few people have any idea what a saddle pad smells like or a barnyard for that matter. Just what the hell is a barnyard anyway? I imagine it as the pastoral barnyard of yore with all the animals hanging out together, maybe a singing bluebird or a talking pig. Don't see that much these days. Rant over.
 
Sounds like you can do some experimenting, I'd make a 10 gallon batch and split it up into several small batches. 1) Control: fermented with wyeast 1056, 2) Fermented with wyeast 5335 Lacto 3) wyeast 5733 Pedio 4) wyeast 5112 Brett Bux, and lastly wyeast 3763 Rosselaire blend. Each would be a 2 gal batch from the same wort.

Should be interesting,
 
Actually such descriptors are not bad in themselves. Wines often have a cigar tobacco or leather quality--two qualities I always look for in a red and buy every time I find them. These are not bad, but pleasurable for many. My wife hates them, but I love them because they bring back so many thoughts and memories. As for the barnyard and horse blanket smells, I've spent many hours on a horse and many years in barnyards and find the aromas heavenly. Don't forget that smell, and its related sense taste, are our most powerful memory and emotion inducing senses. How often have you wafted a brief slight smell that took you back to a childhood memory that you weren't even aware of before? Imagine someone growing up in a pastoral setting lifting a glass to their nose and sensing the smell of the barnyard or even their favorite horse. It would transport them back immediately. To a city dweller these smells may sound bad, but to a country kid these are the smells of home, fun and great pleasure.
 
Hey guys,

I am looking at starting to sour some beers. I am unsure if I want to use lacto or Brett. Can you recommend me a few good commercial examples of each? Maybe some straight Brett, straight lacto, and a mix

Thanks,
Chip

Brett isn't a souring agent, so if you are looking to make a sour beer, you'll need to use lacto. Look into berliner weisses. Especially this one: http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/1809-berliner-style-weisse/72316/
 
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