alternative bittering

hey all, quick question, ive been trying to come up with an alternative to hops as a bittering agent. My wife absolutely dispises all things hoppy, and i want to try a beer with absolutley no hops in it.

i know hops is a recent ingredient in beer, so what did they use before it?

Do a search for Gruit.

Buddy of mine did an herbal beer a while back using Yarrow flower instead of hops. I think Papazian has a recipe in Homebrewing Companion. I know you can find Yarrow in any herbal remedy section, though I don't know about the quality.

Another option is Spruce- I've had a beer "hopped" with spruce tips (as well as the Snow Cap winter seasonal from Pyramid breweries, and those were both outstanding.

ummmmm, i dont think i wanna use gruit, heres what wikipedia has to say

Gruit was a combination of herbs, some of the most common being mildly to moderately narcotic: sweet gale (Myrica gale), mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris), yarrow (Achillea millefolium), heather (Calluna vulgaris) and Labrador Tea (Rhododendron tomentosum, formerly known as Ledum palustre).

or maybee i do....

i seem to recall that dandelion greens are quite bitter, maybee ill try that.

you cold borrow my ex shes pretty bitter

chris1979 said:

you cold borrow my ex shes pretty bitter

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classic.

You may just try making a maltier brew. My wife dislikes bitter/hoppy beers as well, but she loves things like Stella.

dark roasted grains, maybe?

I've just had a beer from Otter Creek called Sphinx. The bottle says it is based on an Egyptian recipe.. Has honey & chamomile and some other stuff. I think they over did the honey a bit in this particular beer, but I do recall seeing a few things about ancient Egyptian brews, so maybe search for one of those recipes?

JB

Tis the season for fresh spruce tips. I've never tried it. Don't over do it unless you like pine tar beer.

How about a nice malty beer. I've never been able to taste hops in a Scottish ale.

How about using dried bitter orange traditionally used in wit.

Edcculus said:

How about a nice malty beer. I've never been able to taste hops in a Scottish ale.

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Really, this is the way to go. I'd bet dollars to donughts it's not hops she doesn't like but the bitterness.

or pick up a copy of Herbal Healing beers. lots of ideas in that.

also try making an ale with very little bitterness but some hop aroma. You might find she enjoyes it. Although she might be very 'trained' to turn up her nose at any sign of it expecting a very bitter beer to follow the smell.

the orange peel idea isnt bad, i can jsut make sure to add lots of the white stuff, that will give it a bitter citrus note, add some black pepper and coriander, and BAM i gots a belgian white.

First question: Does she drink any kind of beer? Many women do not like bitter foods/beverages of any sort. If she doesn't, how about mead, wine or hard cider? Make what she likes.

Austin Homebrew has Heather Tips in 8oz bags. I bought some recently, and plan on making a scottish ale with them. I also go that book Herbal Healing beers there, which I have not read yet. I remember reading about a wild rosemary (not what we use in food) that was used and had some sort of narcotic quality as well. oh yeah, it's Ledum palustre, it may be hard to find....
more info
http://www.gruitale.com/bot_wildrosemary.htm

david_42 said:

First question: Does she drink any kind of beer? Many women do not like bitter foods/beverages of any sort. If she doesn't, how about mead, wine or hard cider? Make what she likes.

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unfortunately she does like some mailnly bmc's i do have a hard cider in the on the drawingboard as well, i know shell like that

Gruit's just a fancy old name for beers bittered by stuff other than hops, usually herbs. Historically, some of the substitutes used have been psychotopic or toxic, but certainly not all of them. I recently made a scottish ale that used heather flowers and meadowsweet (an herb) for bittering and it came out great. I'd suggest checking out Randy Mosher's "radical brewing" too.

Of course if the issue is a dislike for bitterness, replacing one bittering agent for another isn't gonna solve the problem, but tinkering can be fun.

The Germans used myrtle, aniseed, caraway, rosemary, ash leaves or bitter oak bark before moving to hops.

Spruce shoots.

bdavanza said:

Austin Homebrew has Heather Tips in 8oz bags. I bought some recently, and plan on making a scottish ale with them. I also go that book Herbal Healing beers there, which I have not read yet. I remember reading about a wild rosemary (not what we use in food) that was used and had some sort of narcotic quality as well. oh yeah, it's Ledum palustre, it may be hard to find....
more info
gruitale.com :: Brewing with Wild Rosemary (Ledum palustre)

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I made a scottish ale last year with no hops. All bittering came from heather. SWMBO hates bitter beer (most beer in fact) didn't like it. it is different, and not necessarily in a good way. It was malty, not sweet, and had a chamomile tea like flavor. Inlaws loved it. Me.....meh. I took it to a brew club meeting and it was too different. "too malty" and "it needs some Cascade at the end of the boil" were some of the comments I got on it. Point being is it can be a different flavor for homebrewers to get past. Somedays I thought it was OK. Some days I thought it was the devils spawn. I still have some dried heather in the cooler that I may use again in a few years.

There's a pretty good reason all these bittering alternatives fell out of use when they discovered hops...

someone mentioned smoking the heather was relaxing

I'd try to find a style she does like. If she likes BMC stuff, then a Wit might not be a bad idea. It has low bittering, but plenty of flavors.

The Spruce tips idea might be fun to try, but it is still maybe a bit bitter.

Homercidal said:

I'd try to find a style she does like. If she likes BMC stuff, then a Wit might not be a bad idea. It has low bittering, but plenty of flavors.

The Spruce tips idea might be fun to try, but it is still maybe a bit bitter.

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thats basically what im doing i just want to try replacing that light hops with another bittering agent in the same proportion, more or less. i think im going to start with bartenders aromatic bitters, but i of course have to see what that is like (never tried it)

I recall Midas Touch as another interesting recipe. It has hops in it as a divergence from historical accuracy just to make it more beerlike, but their profile is low enough that they might be skipped to let the grape, honey, and saffron balance the taste of malt. Alternatively, one could try some other spices.

Mind, this is just a thought experiment: it looks like an expensive brew to get too casually experimental with, though then again if you have some small fermenters trying three differently seasoned two-gallon batches might be fun. I want to try this some time either way.

Killer_Robot said:

I recall Midas Touch let the grape, honey, and saffron balance the taste of malt. Alternatively, one could try some other spices..

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HEY GRAPESKINS!!! perfect bittering agent(grappa anyone?) now how to work that in (how much would i need for about 20 ibus?)

Back in the days before hops and when beer was called ale (beer was an ale with hops). They used roasted grains etc to counteract the sweetness, Pretty much where the idea to roast the hell out of grain came from.

I can't remember which English King it was but he banned hops for a while when they first made it over to the Ilse.

Gil: If she doesn't like bitter, why would an alternative bittering work?

Does she like coffee [straight, not milky frothy stuff]? Coffee is bitter. You could look at bittering with coffee [no clue how well that would work].

But, are you wanting to bitter it up with an alternative to hops? Or are you wanting to maintain the preservative nature of hops, while cutting down on the sweetness a bit? Witbeirs do that. Also, you can do interesting things with aged hops [past the point of cheesiness, see what they do with Lambics].

Let us know what you do.

hmm esspresso sweet stout? how much espresso would i need?

Google is our friend:

From HomeBrewTalk Forums: Chocolate Espresso Stout and Same Recipe More Information; Hoppage: Chinook .5oz@60min, 1oz@20min, Saaz 1oz@5min. He estimated 50 IBU.
Brewery.org: Espresso Stout; Hoppage: Northern Brewer 7.2% .5oz@60min, .5oz@15min. Estimated IBU: 19.95.
ineedcoffee.com: Espresso Stout; Hoppage: N.Brewer 1.5oz@60min, 0.5oz@5min, Willamette 0.5oz@5min. Estimated IBU: 45.39.
beeradvocate.com: Double Chocolate Espresso Stout; Hoppage: N.Brewer 1.5oz@60min, 0.5oz@15min. Estimated IBU: 53.92.
whitelabs.com: White Labs Espresso Stout; Hoppage: Fuggle 1oz@75min, Centennial 0.4oz@75min. Estimated IBU: 31.53.

So, if your wife does not like hoppy bitterness, my vote would be for the Brewery.org Espresso Stout. That and it looked like a good tasting recipe to me. On the other hand, I have no idea how good its grain bill or anything else looks, you would have to check with others.

Either way, there you go, a lot of recipes to pick and choose from. If you boiled the coffee in the wort (I would consider last 5min, maybe longer), you would definitely get its bitterness. If you put it the secondary, you will get its flavoring (cold brew coffee), but not as much bitterness. Which way to go? Well, if you made a low hopped beer, I would consider putting it in the wort and possibly also in the secondary. If you made a high hopped beer, I would just put it in the secondary as a flavoring.

Again, no idea, I'm making this up as I go here and am just as curious as you about what would work. If I destroy your beer, blame yourself, but let me know if it is good!

On that note. For adding to your current beer? From looking at those recipes, I would go with between 20oz and 32oz brewed espresso or coffee into the secondary. How much depends on just how bitter the beer is already and what other flavors you are trying to overpower. Never hurts to put less in, taste, put more in the next day - as long as you keep things sanitary.

From INeedCoffee, I would trust their advice:

For this recipe, we will brew 16 shots, or 16 oz of espresso. Add this to the wort. I should mention the importance of the brewing of the espresso. I used a Starbucks Barista Home Espresso machine to make espresso. I firmly believe that attempting to use espresso prepared by a steam driven machine will not give you good results. Some recipes for so-called 'espresso' stouts call for adding cracked coffee into the boil, or even into the carboy during fermentation. These beers usually end up having a taste of over-extracted coffee. Brewing espresso properly, however, preserves the integrity of the espresso flavor even after weeks in the bottle.

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However, I cannot see why you can't add the shots to the secondary, if you sterilize them (which they should be, it's boiled water).

just tell her that you are the man and she will like what you tell her to like

nutcase said:

just tell her that you are the man and she will like what you tell her to like

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Then spill it on the floor and tell to to "mop it up, and then make me something delicious!"

dwarven_stout said:

Then spill it on the floor and tell to to "mop it up, and then make me something delicious!"

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yeah and then i can come home from work to see her putting out the brewkit fire she made with all my homebrew

maztec said:

Google is our friend:

onn that note. For adding to your current beer? From looking at those recipes, I would go with between 20oz and 32oz brewed espresso or coffee into the secondary. How much depends on just how bitter the beer is already and what other flavors you are trying to overpower. Never hurts to put less in, taste, put more in the next day - as long as you keep things sanitary.

From INeedCoffee, I would trust their advice:


However, I cannot see why you can't add the shots to the secondary, if you sterilize them (which they should be, it's boiled water).

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im going to treat the coffe as hops here i think, boil some to start for its bittering, and then add espresso from my espresso machine in secondary for flavor. I think im going to omit all hops in this one and see where it goes. ill post my recipe later

hmmmm adding steamed milk and make a cappucino stout?

Heather is another alternative to hops you could use. Its been tossed around on here more than once and has been done in the UK for a long time.

Good to hear, I really want to see what happens if you use it for bittering in place of the hops. Could be really good. There is a test you could do to get an idea of how it would compare on the tongue -:
Take two normal pots, put a pint of water in each.
In one put 1oz coffee grounds. [Maybe more, I would try 1 cup actually].
In the other put 1oz hops.

Boil like crazy. Take tasting samples every 15 minutes. You should be able to calibrate by taste how bitter things get, and have a good idea of how much coffee you want to use.

Could even do a couple different pots of coffee & water, to calibrate how much coffee is equivalent to that much hops for bittering effect.

Now, the warning, hops is a preservative, by using coffee instead you lose this preservative, this means your brew will go bad sooner. If I was you, I would consider using a low acid hop as a preserving agent, but just a small amount of it, something that the coffee would overpower in flavor. Maybe 0.5oz Hallertau or something. Yah, Hallertau is expensive, I am sure someone can come up with a better option than that.

Alternatively, add make a preservative gruet, but that is going to really change your flavor profile.

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Now, for the cappuccino stout. You could make a cloudy beer, something with a nice milky cloudiness on pour, so it'd look more like cappuccino. Or maybe a cream stout: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/just-tapped-my-oatmeal-cream-stout-recipe-inside-20446/ ...

The problem with adding milk later is that most beers will curdle it. And I have no idea at all what would happen if you put it into the primary, except that it would probably result in lactic acid (well, if it got the bacteria in it).

Good luck.

heres my recipe input greatly needed

2.65 lbs extra light dry extract
3.25 lbs pale liquid extract
3.1 lb caramel malt
1 pkg irish ale yeast
.5 lb of cracked espresso beans 60 min boil
16-32 oz espresso in secondary to taste

whatcha think?

good idea on the taste test maztec, take a 60 min boil of 1 oz hops and taste test with many boils of coffee and compare

Well, not counting the bittering, that is going to be a fairly sweet stout.
Based on my BeerTools estimates:
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.015
Color: 19.31 *SRM [I bet it'd be more like 30-40 because of the espresso by the end]
Alcohol: 5.89% [woo!]

No clue on the bitterness from the coffee. But a half pound in 5 gallons should be fairly intense.

Not sure why you are going with the light extracts, but wouldn't the caramel malt darken it a fair amount?