Pours flat when cold ???

So I made a blonde ale thats been in the bottle for 4 weeks now. It will pour a fluffy 3 finger head when warm (above 50 degrees F)--nice head retention and lacing. But when this beer is ice cold--bottle in the fridge for several hours--it pours flat with no head retention at all.

Whats the deal with this?

if its too cold the beer will reasorb the co2 and thats why it seems like its flat. i usually chill my beers to about 45, any colder than that and i get the same results.

take a look at how cold your fridge is too

+1

Serving temp is important. I have also experienced this.

Be sure you didn't try to bottle condition some of your beers in the fridge. Your bottles need to be between 65-75 (roughly) during bottle conditioning so the 34-40 you'll find in your fridge won't allow the yeast to do their job and carbonate the beer.

I've found a lot of beginner home brewers make this mistake. It's best to always think of bottle conditioning as a mini-fermentation inside the bottle (because that's what it is!) and fermentation requires appropriate ale temperatures.

There are carbing charts in How to Brew and The Brewers Companion. They graph out:

• The style of beer
• Its intended pressure of carbonation
• The serving temperature
• The amount of different priming sources needed to achieve this

As mentioned the colder the less active the carbonation you will see, or inversely the more carbonation sugars you will need to achieve your goal at colder temps. If you are kegging there is a similar set of calculations that factor in temp. Hose length and other factors to get a target pressurization for your regulator to obtain the desired carbonation.

Wow thanks for the tips guys. Just to note, I did use the a chart in Palmer's How to Brew to determine how much sugar to add. They were bottle conditioned at room temperature for just over 3 weeks. If I let a bottle of it sit in the fridge for over 4 hours, it pours flat, 1 hour gives a 3 finger froth with great head retention. I have a brown ale that I aged in the same way, and that one pours a 3 finger froth after sitting in the fridge all night.

Photopilot said:

As mentioned the colder the less active the carbonation you will see, or inversely the more carbonation sugars you will need to achieve your goal at colder temps.

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i dont think this is exactly true. the amount of priming sugar you use depends on the warmest temp the beer got to after fermentation was over. the lower the temp the less priming sugar you need because there is more residual CO2 still in the beer from fermentation. this is because the cooler temps makes the gas less active and there for less likely to escape the liquid.

TipsyDragon said:

the amount of priming sugar you use depends on the warmest temp the beer got to after fermentation was over.

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Thanks for clarifying that. Both the sources I mentioned factor in temperature of beer for priming without clarifying. I was fairly annoyed and spent hours contemplating whether they meant temp at bottling, storing or drinking, before deciding the serving temp was the defining factor. Now I know.

I have had the same exact thing happen. Try putting the beer in the fridge for 2 days and then pour. It seems to pour better for some scientific reason that is waaayyyy beynd me!

What was your "room temp" during the time you carbed it. Was it above 70 degrees? In the winter my loft is pretty cool (like in the 60's) and it takes for most beers more than 4 weeks to carb up then, but the minute room temp spikes into the 70's in the spring...then bam they all carb up.

If it WAS below 70, I would agitate them to kick the sleepy yest back up, then find the spot above 70 in your place and leave them there for a week or two more...

Hmm... I noticed this same thing last night. Cracked a 22oz. and a 12oz. at room temperature and had great carbonation. Put one in the fridge for 2-3 hours and it turned back to murky and flat.

So what's to blame here - were the last two bottles not as carbonated, or did chilling them do something to the CO2? I've read that after bottle conditioning, they need to sit in the fridge for a while - but I've heard conflicting times on how long? Just trying to understand.

Also - I hear ya YooperBrew. My house has been low-mid 60's the whole time I've been trying to bottle condition, but the last few days it's been up in the 70's and that seems to be when they're all deciding to start carbing.

2-3 hours might cool the liquid but it sure doesn't allow CO2 in headspace to absorb into the liquid.

That's why you really gotta chill for 48 hours at serving temp (not ice-cold) to hit the right carbonation in solution.

malkore said:

2-3 hours might cool the liquid but it sure doesn't allow co2 in headspace to absorb into the liquid.

That's why you really gotta chill for 48 hours at serving temp (not ice-cold) to hit the right carbonation in solution.

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+1,000!!!!!

I left one bottle of the blonde in the fridge for 5 days, pulled it out and it poured flat. I then poured one at cellar temps and it poured a 3 finger head. I think something is just wacky with this batch...I have a brown ale that pours the same no matter what the temp...

I'm afraid that's what's going to happen to mine too. Can anyone chime in with advice here? What would cause Newton's batch to do that?

I have a feeling if I cracked all my bottles straight out of the box I'm storing them at room temperature in, they'd all pour a nice foamy head. So far every one I've attempted to chill before opening has looked like sh*t. However, I haven't let one stay in the fridge for more than a few days - is the key letting it sit cold for a week or more??

Keep in mind, if my fridge is "too cold" - I'm SOL until I get a different fridge. I'm currently storing them in the main kitchen food fridge & can't really mess with temps too much on there.

Well I'll tell you one thing I noticed with my blonde...if you take it out of the fridge and let it set for 15 minutes or so until it gets into the upper 40 or lower 50s it'll pour a nice head.

Ok, but if there is a technique one can employ (like, knowing that you need to keep them all in the fridge for a week or whatever, before cracking) once & the beer pours consistently each time after that - I'd rather go that route.

Unless, I missed it, I didn't see what style of beer is being considered here. From what I understand and have read on these here forums and in some of my books, some beers are not supposed to pour really thick heads. My Koelsch for example pours about a half finger head that disipates fairly quickly.

Something to try is to work on the pouring technique. A more violent pour will help to release more CO2 from the solution and provide a better head (i.e. pour the bottle about a foot, or bottle length, above the rim of the glass letting the beer splash at the bottom of the glass, and no tipping the glass).

Burgs said:

Ok, but if there is a technique one can employ (like, knowing that you need to keep them all in the fridge for a week or whatever, before cracking) once & the beer pours consistently each time after that - I'd rather go that route.

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Condition in the bottle for at least 3 weeks at, or very close to, 70 degrees. Then move to the fridge for at least 48 hours so all the CO2 in the headspace gets absorbed into the beer.

In any event, RDWHAHB, your beer is still beer.

The style I'm talking about in particular is ... well, that's a weird one for this particular beer. But it's a Grateful Dead Guy kit from NB.

In my case, I don't think the issue is that I'm expecting more foam than what I'm getting. It's more like, when I pour from room temp I get a nice head. If I pour straight out of the fridge, there's nothing. The beer is also much less clear and the taste/mouthfeel suffers as well.

I don't want to drink all of my beer at room temp though. And I'd rather not have to set each one out to warm a little before I crack it.

DrawTap88 said:

Condition in the bottle for at least 3 weeks at, or very close to, 70 degrees. Then move to the fridge for at least 48 hours so all the CO2 in the headspace gets absorbed into the beer.

In any event, RDWHAHB, your beer is still beer.

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Right - I'm at 4 weeks now, actually. It hasn't been 70 the entire duration though, was low 60s until this last week or so.

I think it's the "fridge for at least 48 hours" part I'm trying to figure out. Newton says that didn't help him. I'm trying it myself, but it's only been since last night that I stuck some more in the fridge. Won't know til tomorrow evening whether or not the 48hrs was enough.

Also RE: pouring technique - I was pouring aggressively down the center of the glass to try and coax some bubbles out. The cold ones were completely still, even with a forceful pour.

Yeah thats the thing about my blonde ale too--I think they are are supposed to be served at around 50 degrees F. At that temperature there is no chill haze and it has excellent head retention and beautiful bubbles galore. Its just odd that is looks almost uncarbonated when it is cold.

I think that part of my issue is that the carbonation isn't there consistently in all my bottles yet.

Because, correct me if I'm wrong - chill haze has little to do with carbonation or taste, right? Palmer's How To Brew says that it's more of a cosmetic defect & you can't taste it.

So if my beer not only looks hazy, but is truly flat and TASTES different - then I can't blame chill haze 100%. Wouldn't the proper factor to blame be that it's simply not carbonated and conditioned yet?

You guys have me stumped. Sorry I can't be of more help to you, but I am looking forward to other brewers helping you guys figure this out.

I mean, mine could be simple and I've just over-complicated it by blaming fridge temperature as the factor.

Mine has been 4 weeks in the bottle, but as I think I mentioned - it has been under the recommended 70° for the majority of that time.

That being said, each bottle I've pulled from the fridge and poured that has been murky and flat and ****ty tasting, may have tasted every bit as ****ty and looked every bit as murky had I never put it in the fridge in the first place.

Ya feel me?

The reason for this is that CO2, like everything else (except water and bismuth), expands when it warms and contracts when it cools. This is the same reason a canister of CO2 will show that it is less full when cold. Even though there is technically the same amount of CO2 in a warm beer as there is in a cold beer (given it is in a sealed container), the effective volume of the CO2 in the cold bottle is lower, as is the pressure of CO2 in the bottle. When the pressure drops, CO2 that is absorbed in the beer (carbonation) evaporates into the empty space in the bottle until the pressure in the empty space = the effective pressure of the CO2 absorbed in the beer.

Basically, you just need to give your beer more time to carbonate. Don't try to carbonate it cold, it is just going to make it take longer. Judge the level of carbonation by the chilled beer, that is how you are going to drink it after all.

hellerbrewing said:

The reason for this is that CO2, like everything else (except water and bismuth), expands when it warms and contracts when it cools. This is the same reason a canister of CO2 will show that it is less full when cold. Even though there is technically the same amount of CO2 in a warm beer as there is in a cold beer (given it is in a sealed container), the effective volume of the CO2 in the cold bottle is lower, as is the pressure of CO2 in the bottle. When the pressure drops, CO2 that is absorbed in the beer (carbonation) evaporates into the empty space in the bottle until the pressure in the empty space = the effective pressure of the CO2 absorbed in the beer.

Basically, you just need to give your beer more time to carbonate. Don't try to carbonate it cold, it is just going to make it take longer. Judge the level of carbonation by the chilled beer, that is how you are going to drink it after all.

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Makes sense to me - I just wish it would warm up a little inside the house to help things move along!

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Burgs said:

Right - I'm at 4 weeks now, actually. It hasn't been 70 the entire duration though, was low 60s until this last week or so.

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That's why you have inconsistent carbonation.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Low sixties may not seem like a lot to you and me, BUT to those little yeasties that's a lot closer to hibernation temps than it is to their best temps to finish the job. You need to have it above 70 for as long as it needs.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

Burgs said:

I think that part of my issue is that the carbonation isn't there consistently in all my bottles yet.

Because, correct me if I'm wrong - chill haze has little to do with carbonation or taste, right? Palmer's How To Brew says that it's more of a cosmetic defect & you can't taste it.

So if my beer not only looks hazy, but is truly flat and TASTES different - then I can't blame chill haze 100%. Wouldn't the proper factor to blame be that it's simply not carbonated and conditioned yet?

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Your beers should all have the same amount of chill haze. Remember, the beer was all the same, until you split it into bottles. I would check your priming techniques.

Burgs said:

I mean, mine could be simple and I've just over-complicated it by blaming fridge temperature as the factor.

Mine has been 4 weeks in the bottle, but as I think I mentioned - it has been under the recommended 70° for the majority of that time.

That being said, each bottle I've pulled from the fridge and poured that has been murky and flat and ****ty tasting, may have tasted every bit as ****ty and looked every bit as murky had I never put it in the fridge in the first place.

Ya feel me?

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flat beer does not taste "sh1tty", it tastes like the beer, but without carbonation, you won't get a lot of aroma, and mouthfeel. If the beer does taste bad, perhaps it is comtamination, whether bottles or whole batch. Or the priming solution itself.

agenthucky said:

flat beer does not taste "sh1tty", it tastes like the beer, but without carbonation, you won't get a lot of aroma, and mouthfeel. If the beer does taste bad, perhaps it is comtamination, whether bottles or whole batch. Or the priming solution itself.

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I feel you - and use of the word "****ty" is probably me being squeamish about it being flat and me being my own harshest critic. The beer is a touch too sweet, and that flaw is more apparent when it's flat and cold than when there is carbonation prickling your tongue and more aroma distracting you, if that makes sense. Some of it's probably psychological - i.e. - I know that my beer is a bit sweet, so when my brain realizes that my mouth has flat beer in it, it equates that with "I'm tasting straight wort or malt extract here". I don't have a lot to go off of to make this claim but, I don't think it's contaminated. I think it's just not adequately conditioned yet.

EDIT: and after reading Revvy's post again - I'd comment that I agree, flat beer shouldn't taste bad. BUT, green beer might!

Revvy said:

That's why you have inconsistent carbonation.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Low sixties may not seem like a lot to you and me, BUT to those little yeasties that's a lot closer to hibernation temps than it is to their best temps to finish the job. You need to have it above 70 for as long as it needs.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

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Thank you for this. I've heard it a million times but it never hurts to hear it again. My plan is to keep the batch in a warm spot in the house for 2 more weeks and go from there. In the mean time, I'll check out that link.

EDIT: ah yes, I remember that thread. Stickied for good reason.

Burgs said:

I feel you - and use of the word "****ty" is probably me being squeamish about it being flat and me being my own harshest critic. The beer is a touch too sweet, and that flaw is more apparent when it's flat and cold than when there is carbonation prickling your tongue and more aroma distracting you, if that makes sense. Some of it's probably psychological - i.e. - I know that my beer is a bit sweet, so when my brain realizes that my mouth has flat beer in it, it equates that with "I'm tasting straight wort or malt extract here". I don't have a lot to go off of to make this claim but, I don't think it's contaminated. I think it's just not adequately conditioned yet.

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The sweetness is a good sign that the priming sugar hasn't been consumed by the yeast. This happens to me every once and a while, if you are REALLY impatient, you can open them, add a small amount of dry yeast, and close them up again. This usually happens when I am impatient about tasting a bigger beer. It just so happens, that I drink most of it flat before it has the proper time it needs. I too get an additional sweetness, and a flat beer is surely dissapointing, but I want my dissapointment now! Usually before the batch is gone, the later half is in better shape.

Time cures a lot, even some cantaminated beers. Keep that in mind.

Dude, yes! I thought about that too. I didn't remember my samples out of secondary tasting too sweet so I wondered. Then I thought the same thing - that's probably priming sugar I'm tasting.

I think the bottles I opened that were good - I just lucked out on. I think there are just a couple scattered bottles that are almost carbed, but for the most part the whole batch just needs to sit.

Damn thermometer up in the closet still says low/mid 60's though. *sigh*

Anyone ever take conditioning beer to work because their office is hotter than their home? I'm seriously considering it!

This just happened to me. I made a Belgian Amber hopped it up like an IPA. Fantastic beer, but there's no head on it when it's cold.

I'd like to point out that when this has been the case in the past - the beer tastes better at 50 F! By better I mean more head (everyone like extra head!) and improved citrus aftertaste from the Cascade hops. Cold is nice on warm days, but this batch of beer wants to be served at cellar temperatures. I like to give my beer everything it wants.

Burgs said:

Damn thermometer up in the closet still says low/mid 60's though. *sigh*

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I've been reading this forum, and I don't see why so many people have made a huge deal that you bottle condition ABOVE 70F. While this is optimal, it is not the only way you can do it. I don't have enough room in my apartment where it gets to 70+ for the 3-4 cases I have conditioning at any one time. I keep a few in the kitchen cabinet, and the rest in my closet in my room where it is at 68F at the highest point. It gets colder than this, and I still have great carbonation on my beer. You can bottle condition at any temperature that the yeast will survive at, but it will just take additional time the colder it gets. I've had overcarbonated beer conditioning at 60-65F. This also depends on the yeast, some can even go down to low 50s, which is cellar temp, and a LOT of people condition in their cellars.

No one has seemed to mention the fact that if you are frustrated with your levels of carbonation, you might want to add more priming solution, and raise the temp of the conditioning, that this can be a bad idea as well. The higher temps will cause more bottle bombs if the yeast eat the priming solution, in addition to the sugar leftover in the beer, too fast, at too high of a temp.

I am relly suprised that no one has mentioned the more important factor in carbonation YEAST VIABILITY! This is by far the most important factor in producing a carbonated beer. You need healthy yeast in your bottles to carbonate, if you don't have enough, it can take an extremely long time, or not happen at all. Many people want a very clear beer, so they reduce the amount of yeast that goes into the bottle. I make sure to suck some yeast up into my bottling bucket, it will settle out of the bottle during conditioning, and you can leave it on the bottom when you pour.

If your beer has a clean sweetness, there is a good chance its the priming sugar. In that case, you can remove the caps from the bottles, add a little dry yeast, and cap them again. See if this does the trick in a few weeks.

I don't want to disregard the higher temp of conditioning, but it isn't a must to have carbonated beer. Yeast however, IS a must.

someone mentioned it but priming technique is important. I always dissolve priming sugar in water and boil it on the stove for 10 minutes before pouring it into the bottling bucket. I start syphoning beer into the bucket and pour the sugar water in when the beer level is higher than the spigot, to make sure that a sugar concentrate doesn't hide inside the spigot while i'm mixing the rest in. I stir with a big spoon a bunch after all teh beer is in the bucket, and then give it another stir after every twelve bottles are filled. Remember, you want to make sure the sugar and the yeast are as evenly distributed as possible throughout the batch, although try to avoid oxygenating the beer.
I made a high gravity lager one time and decided to rack it to a tertiary fermenter for a couple weeks to settle out more sediment. the bottled beer was crystal clear but failed to carbonate, and I think it was because there wasn't enough yeast left. I found ONE bottle that poured a rich foamy head, but the rest were still as a pond. The bottles didn't have any sediment in them though. The beer was nonetheless delicious and the experience was interesting.

edstirling said:

someone mentioned it but priming technique is important. I always dissolve priming sugar in water and boil it on the stove for 10 minutes before pouring it into the bottling bucket. I start syphoning beer into the bucket and pour the sugar water in when the beer level is higher than the spigot, to make sure that a sugar concentrate doesn't hide inside the spigot while i'm mixing the rest in.

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Not a bad idea, I never gave that any though, I just toss my solution on the bottom of the bucket, the siphoning action mixes it enough, although I have adopted a quick stir in before I bottle with the racking cane. I'm not sure it would get stuck in the spigot, because when I add the priming solution, it doesn't go amove the spigot.

Disolving the sugar in CLEAN boiled water I think is a must. Granulated sugar will not disolve evenly, and will not mix evenly when combinded with the beer. Just make sure to cool the priming solution, so you don't kill the yeast that comes in contact with it.

edstirling said:

I made a high gravity lager one time and decided to rack it to a tertiary fermenter for a couple weeks to settle out more sediment. the bottled beer was crystal clear but failed to carbonate, and I think it was because there wasn't enough yeast left.

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With lagers, it is reccommended you pitch at least twice the amount of yeast you would normally pitch. For this, I make 2.5 gallons with a standard Wyeast 5 gallon activator pouch. This will prevent you from having to add yeast during bottling, which is a common practice with lagers, never ming higher gravity ones. I made my imperial pils (8.5%) that way and it carbonated perfectly. An alternative is adding a higher alcohol tolerant yeast at bottling time. Don't forger, with the high gravity lagers, the yeast is sitting under that amount of alcohol at very low temps. What you have that survives, is much less than with a lighter lager, or even more so with an ale.